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    Aug 14, 2006 4:49:28 AM

    WBH
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    WBH
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    Reply to: cnc

    Re: CGT vs Enzo 270+kmph: Let's dig why

    Quote:
    cnc said:
    I would argure that the CGT is not an utter failure ( by a long shot). The failure (US) of this car was due to a confluence of circumstances, i.e. increased price, increased production levels and Dealer greed (trying to mark up the car and keeping it out of the hands of the real buyers) killing genuine demand.

    The holdover of cars in the US is due to the airbag exemption , which Porsche wrongly thought could not be extended to 06, therefore more cars than the market could absorb were pulled into MY 05.

    The CGT is more user friendly (and gas station) than the GT2 etc., so any disatisfaction from the car is more related to the extensive demands it makes on the driver (rather that it's deficiencies) and their level of unpreparedness and intimidation.



    My sense is CGT was a struggle to sell in any key global mkt (even outside US)...like Lond/Germany/MC....where dealers had to disct to move new CGTs; resale values were awful; etc.....no?

    As some have commented, Enzo's lackluster/struggling sales in ex-US mkts (like Fr, etc) were very similar to CGT's painful sales in every relevant mkt....but please educate us if we're mistaken...

    Aug 14, 2006 7:53:51 AM

    Crash
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    Reply to: WBH

    Re: CGT vs Enzo 270+kmph: Let's dig why

    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    Crash, need to also consider that few anywhere have extensive expce w/near-misses at high-speed on a routine basis....correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect vast majority of 997TT/65, etc in Germany are used primarily in low-speed urban driving and occasional wkend early AM AB blitzes when traffic is light....

    Arguably, SF's 280 fwy is world's fastest urban fwy w/various upscale, "time-sensitive" commuters, w/80MPH rush-hr flow w/clumps of typically inept, cell phone-addicted, always eating/drinking obese US drivers in their SUVs....and an "unusual" concentration of new, $150K+ P/MB/F just trying to get to the office or a mtg in SilicVy .....lots of near-misses/evasive maneuvers to assess each new P/F/MB's relative strengths/weaknesses in real-life, daily emgcys....

    But still highly value the German perspective....at perhaps much higher speeds....



    German Autobahns certainly are somewhat cluttered nowadays, but it still isn't ararity to find an empty stretch on even the most traffic intense highways, which allows you to take the car to high speeds (The SL65 would easily break 300 km/h in such cases). The smaller, remote highways, linking smaller cities, often have next to no traffic and are a joy to drive. Sure, many people buy Porsches just to commute and occasionally step on it, but there have been many occasions where I ran into a 911, itching to get past me at over 250 km/h .
    Regarding stability, the SL65 will probably feel more stable (haven't driven one yet, so I'm purely speculating) under hard braking, but that is again down to the sheer momentum of the car, which will be hard-pressed to move out of its line of travel. The Porsche, on the other hand, takes some getting used to, but is probably way more stable (at least in my experience) than anything else out there. Of course, since the Turbo is much more responsive and lighter than the 65, it will feel more squirrely, but keep the steering wheel steady and it isn't going anywhere. The biggest difference would be in high-speed cornering, where the added momentum of the 65 would seriously hamper it and in high-speed lane changes, where the cars would show their real colors. Maybe RC and MKSGR should explain more of this, as I don't claim to have vast experience, so I'm only relčaying what I know.

    Aug 15, 2006 2:49:12 AM

    WBH
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    WBH
    Loc: CA
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: CGT vs Enzo 270+kmph: Let's dig why

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    Crash, need to also consider that few anywhere have extensive expce w/near-misses at high-speed on a routine basis....correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect vast majority of 997TT/65, etc in Germany are used primarily in low-speed urban driving and occasional wkend early AM AB blitzes when traffic is light....

    Arguably, SF's 280 fwy is world's fastest urban fwy w/various upscale, "time-sensitive" commuters, w/80MPH rush-hr flow w/clumps of typically inept, cell phone-addicted, always eating/drinking obese US drivers in their SUVs....and an "unusual" concentration of new, $150K+ P/MB/F just trying to get to the office or a mtg in SilicVy .....lots of near-misses/evasive maneuvers to assess each new P/F/MB's relative strengths/weaknesses in real-life, daily emgcys....

    But still highly value the German perspective....at perhaps much higher speeds....



    German Autobahns certainly are somewhat cluttered nowadays, but it still isn't ararity to find an empty stretch on even the most traffic intense highways, which allows you to take the car to high speeds (The SL65 would easily break 300 km/h in such cases). The smaller, remote highways, linking smaller cities, often have next to no traffic and are a joy to drive. Sure, many people buy Porsches just to commute and occasionally step on it, but there have been many occasions where I ran into a 911, itching to get past me at over 250 km/h .
    Regarding stability, the SL65 will probably feel more stable (haven't driven one yet, so I'm purely speculating) under hard braking, but that is again down to the sheer momentum of the car, which will be hard-pressed to move out of its line of travel. The Porsche, on the other hand, takes some getting used to, but is probably way more stable (at least in my experience) than anything else out there. Of course, since the Turbo is much more responsive and lighter than the 65, it will feel more squirrely, but keep the steering wheel steady and it isn't going anywhere. The biggest difference would be in high-speed cornering, where the added momentum of the 65 would seriously hamper it and in high-speed lane changes, where the cars would show their real colors. Maybe RC and MKSGR should explain more of this, as I don't claim to have vast experience, so I'm only relčaying what I know.



    Appreciate your balanced response....

    Need to consider that SL55/65 actually sit ?0.5" lower than 997TT; have roughly same width/wheelbase....and 55/65 weigh <300lb more than 612 (a much-praised high-speed and track handler)...and '07 55/65 have MB's latest ABC/steering/brake/stab ctrl systems/software to offset weight......gotta rem that all these cars are as quickly obsolescent as iPods/cell phs/plasma TVs/laptops, etc....need to compare latest/greatest version vs latest/greatest version of each brand.....
    Know several guys who are good-excellent amateur drivers and brand-indifferent, who commute via SL55/65 and/or 996TTS (and shortly 997TT), whose view is each car has issues on real CA fwys@<200KPH, dry/wet....

    My prelim prediction is diffce btwn '07 SL55/65 and 997TT will be microscopic/personal preference in real-world high-speed driving stability, unless I hear otherwise from seasoned drivers who have back-to-back expce....

    Reality is in vast majority/all of the world's major mkts for $150K+ cars: SF/Greenwich/Lond/LA (and prob Munich/Frankfurt).....overwhelming majority of upscale owners live 10 mins from their office in a dense urban/suburban area....and only occasionally open up their toys on a fair-weather wkend AM when traffic is light....so their high-speed expces tend to have much "sampling error/bias".....

    Have always looked to guys who often commute SF/SilicVy's 280 for their perspectives....as I don't know of any high-speed fwy anywhere in world w/so many high-end cars driven by jaded drivers for routine commuting @80-120MPH w/ample opptys to eval car's tq and high-speed stability in dense traffic.....and in SF, temps rarely are <55F, so cars always are on summ perf tires/wheels.....rain/cross-winds are only weather issues in SF...and only in winter.....

    Aug 15, 2006 3:44:05 AM

    sf
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    Reply to: WBH

    Re: CGT vs Enzo 270+kmph: Let's dig why

    You need to consider that there are no (or very few) long straights on the Autobahn. That means that you constantly feel the mass/inertia of your car in all the bends, which gives lighter cars a definite advantage. Another thing which is important for "Autobahn-stability-feel" is the steering ratio. It's higher on an SL compared to a 911, which makes the ride more relaxing. But if you're driving high speeds (250+ km/h), you are (should be) concentrated enough to be able to handle the lower steering ratio and you really appreciate less mass/inertia. The brakes of course are very important as well. At 250+ km/h you can't change lanes apruptly if someone swerves in your lane, no matter what car you're in, so you have to rely on your brakes. So all in all, pros and cons on both sides. For commuting (when you have other things on your mind than driving fast) the SL is definitly the more relaxing car.

    Aug 15, 2006 7:30:04 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: sf

    Re: CGT vs Enzo 270+kmph: Let's dig why

    Compared to a SL AMG (or M6 etc.) the 997TT provides a much more precise feed-back to the driver (steering, brakes, suspension, road surface, you can even "hear" much easier when the car approaches the aquaplaning threshold).

    Also, the lower weight is a definitive advantage: the car is simply more versatile, brakes are more effective, the car does not "feel" as heavy in tighther bends.

    In summary, the driver of a SL AMG (or M6) experiences his car through a filter. While this may have some advantages (more comfort) it also reduces the driver's ability to understand the car in its current driving conditions. The more difficult the driving conditions (high speed, tight AB bends...) the less a SL AMG driver will be able to trust his car. This reduces driving excitement and (often) possible speed

    Aug 15, 2006 11:49:21 AM

    dhayek Offline
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: CGT vs Enzo 270+kmph: Let's dig why

    wait i dont get it ,the sl65 is fatsre than cgt to 300kph???

    Aug 15, 2006 12:00:51 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: dhayek

    Re: CGT vs Enzo 270+kmph: Let's dig why

    Quote:
    dhayek said:
    wait i dont get it ,the sl65 is fatsre than cgt to 300kph???



    At least, some posters seem to have this view.

    Personally, I would expect the SL65 to do 0-300 in around (or slightly below) 40s, though.

    Aug 15, 2006 2:00:34 PM

    Ferdie
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: CGT vs Enzo 270+kmph: Let's dig why

    the faster and more powerful the car gets The more you will focus on the bends, on the AB just like on any racetrack, The intensity of a vehicles reaction doesn't rise proportional but to the square - that's why the handling becomes more challenging.
     
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