Crown

fritz:

Grant:

fritz:

..... "but given that the engines still seem to blow up left and right " ......

Seriously?  Any info on cause or nature of the failures?   

Oiling of the valve-train (camshaft and finger-follower interface) is insufficient (lots of wear on cams and valve actuators).  Said to be cured with 2016 3.8L and all 4.0L...

OK, not literally blow-ups, but naturally still highly unsatisfactory for the owner. 

The engine failure causes the owner to blow up  The effect is about the same.

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

I'm glad the RS came PDK only: I would still be sitting hesatating with the configuration.

Grant:

fritz:

Grant:

fritz:

..... "but given that the engines still seem to blow up left and right " ......

Seriously?  Any info on cause or nature of the failures?   

Oiling of the valve-train (camshaft and finger-follower interface) is insufficient (lots of wear on cams and valve actuators).  Said to be cured with 2016 3.8L and all 4.0L...

OK, not literally blow-ups, but naturally still highly unsatisfactory for the owner. 
So not a continuation of the con-rod failure story? 

No, it causes a misfire though and it's a pretty big issue even with low miles.  Not causing fires though...

Do you know if there is a recall?

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

bluelines:

Do you know if there is a recall?

Not at this time.  Supposedly the parts cost alone is $10k to make the retrofit of all the newer parts used on 2016 GT3 and RS/R.

16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Grant, Bluelines you owe it to yourself to drive a GT3 with PDK. It is a fabulous car especially for the money. 

BTW, if you know how to use a PDK (GT3 and RS version), it can be as fun as a manual. On a track there is nothing like it. In traffic there is nothing better. Take it from someone who has been using PDK style transmissions since the early F1's in Ferrari's.

Learn to use your left foot for braking and have a ball.

Of little, to make much: That is the dream of a human life.

But the R just looked stunning, better than other GT cars...

Kobalt:

I'm glad the RS came PDK only: I would still be sitting hesatating with the configuration.

Having driven your RS with PDK, are you now sold on the system?  Better than expected?  Still miss manual sometimes?

16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Grant:

Kobalt:

I'm glad the RS came PDK only: I would still be sitting hesatating with the configuration.

Having driven your RS with PDK, are you now sold on the system?  Better than expected?  Still miss manual sometimes?

Carlos would also be a good reference to ask this question to.... as I recall he had doubts about moving to PDK on his GTS, no its not the GT3 but the transmission debate is pretty much the same in both. 

2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S

4trac:

Grant:

Kobalt:

I'm glad the RS came PDK only: I would still be sitting hesatating with the configuration.

Having driven your RS with PDK, are you now sold on the system?  Better than expected?  Still miss manual sometimes?

Carlos would also be a good reference to ask this question to.... as I recall he had doubts about moving to PDK on his GTS, no its not the GT3 but the transmission debate is pretty much the same in both. 

I have read Carlos's comments (and appreciate them), but I don't remember Kobalt's thoughts on this issue (and this would presumably be the same drivetrain in the 991.2 GT3).

But I have to confess that there is very little chance I would take anything but Manual.  I'm very excited about the chance to have a NA 4.0L motor that revs to 8,800rpm, makes 500HP and attached to a great shifting manual - gonna be hard to choose anything else...

--

16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

SciFrog:

But the R just looked stunning, better than other GT cars...

It is the special edition aluminum wheel paint 

On a more serious note, yes I agree that the 911 looks better without a rear wing. 

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

4trac:

Grant:

Kobalt:

I'm glad the RS came PDK only: I would still be sitting hesatating with the configuration.

Having driven your RS with PDK, are you now sold on the system?  Better than expected?  Still miss manual sometimes?

Carlos would also be a good reference to ask this question to.... as I recall he had doubts about moving to PDK on his GTS, no its not the GT3 but the transmission debate is pretty much the same in both. 

I moved from a manual Carrera to PDK too, but also still have a manual GT4.

I would not move back to the manual in the Carrera, never. The manual in the GT4 is in a different league however. So if the manual in the next GT3 is as well executed as in the GT4 then the choice will be very hard to make.

PDK is truly great. It lots of fun to use the paddles in manual mode, but one thing is missing and will always be missing... the direct connection to the car. With the manual gearbox you have to learn the RPM from the gear, hearing the engine, feeling the speed, etc. Knowing when to shift and when not. This gives you a connection to the car which an effortless click with a PDK paddle can never replace. PDK does a lot of other great things which manual can not, but this connection is the big thing which is gone with PDK. 

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

bluelines:

It is the special edition aluminum wheel paint 

 

The old guys on here love those, plus aluminum wheel paint and Bee Gees tracks in the background. ....

throt

"I Have Done It!".

991 GT3 pick up in October 2014.

throt:

The old guys on here love those, plus aluminum wheel paint and Bee Gees tracks in the background. ....

That is how they like to roll  Riding low and dirty with the golden oldies.

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

bluelines:

throt:

The old guys on here love those, plus aluminum wheel paint and Bee Gees tracks in the background. ....

That is how they like to roll  Riding low and dirty with the golden oldies.

well, and stripes...at least some of these old farts...

bluelines:

nberry:

All kidding aside, Grant why do you want to move "up"?

I might move "up" when the next GT3 comes out. To those of you who suddenly started to uncontrollably cry, things will be fine. We will deal with this together. Holding hands. Singing songs. Watching funny cat videos on YouTube.

That is, the C4S and the GT4 would both go for a new GT3. I half considered the current one, but given that the engines still seem to blow up left and right I am staying away. 

Why? I am also more into the 911 than the Cayman/Boxster IF I only have one. But R does not interest me at all. IMHO it is still an overpriced end-of-life parts-bin exercise. Having said that, I have high hopes for the 991.2 GT3.

+100

Grant:

Kobalt:

I'm glad the RS came PDK only: I would still be sitting hesatating with the configuration.

Having driven your RS with PDK, are you now sold on the system?  Better than expected?  Still miss manual sometimes?

(Remember that I've only done two days on the Ring with the car.)

The problem to compare the manual versus the PDK, I think, is that you basically can drive so much faster, and safer. You can approach a corner in higher speed, doing downshifts without the risk of upsetting the car. Just keeping both hands on the steering wheel is a plus.

When driving manual you might need some marginal for the possibility of messing up things.

An example: When i did our examination laps with S7 in my 2007GT3: After the jump at Schwedencreutz my car bounced forward for good time almost making it impossible for me to get the speed down to be able to take the fast left hander. I had definitely not time to downshift so I had to go thru the left hander one gear higher than I wanted.
I guess you could say that sometimes you are out of time driving a manual. You always need to compromise driving manual.

As side note: It felt really weird with the PDK at those corners where I usually heel-and-toe.

The two days at the Ring with my RS was in wet conditions: I totally loved the PDK under those circumstances.
I did one stupid thing: The track was drying up so there sections that where totally dry and sections wet.
I had really good run thru Schwedencreutz, exhilarated, and forgot that it was wet after Aremberg. So I had good speed when i realized that "Oh, yea, wet!". With PDK I just upshifted because I had time to do it. If i been driving manual it would have been one of those moments when it feels like doing a balance act on a wire.

I think that the question of PDK vs Manual is very difficult to answer: One thing for sure is that PDK is better if you want to go fast in a safer way.

But most of us are driving to have fun and to become better drivers.

I think that to some people the manual will be the most fun alternative and to some the PDK depending on a lot of factors.

One thing that is negative driving PDK is that you give those that drive manuals slower than you drive your PDK the opportunity to tell you that you the car is doing the driving. It will always be more "macho/hardcore" driving manual  .

I think that if my first track experiences was in a PDK car it would have taken me much longer time to learn what I know today. When driving manual fast you really have to be smooth and get the feel for the car. The same applies to PDK but I think that PDK might fool you to believe you are a better driver than you really are. Which is not good if you want to have fun and become a better driver.

If I was offered the possibility to choose manual/PDK today?

Still don't know.

I think I would like to have one PDK car and one old school lightweight 911.

Kobalt:

I'm glad the RS came PDK only: I would still be sitting hesatating with the configuration.

 + 1 .  I am already hesitating about the next one and I have a few years in front of me to decide !!!!

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Target is to add - not to Change

BjoernB:

Target is to add - not to Change

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

bluelines:

fritz:

Grant:

fritz:

..... "but given that the engines still seem to blow up left and right " ......

Seriously?  Any info on cause or nature of the failures?   

Oiling of the valve-train (camshaft and finger-follower interface) is insufficient (lots of wear on cams and valve actuators).  Said to be cured with 2016 3.8L and all 4.0L...

OK, not literally blow-ups, but naturally still highly unsatisfactory for the owner. 

The engine failure causes the owner to blow up  The effect is about the same.

I thought Motorsport car buyers were supposed to be very understanding and forgiving when problems arise? 

fritz

Well, it does not have any Motorsport connection does it?  Maybe that is the actual issue.

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

bluelines:

Well, it does not have any Motorsport connection does it?  Maybe that is the actual issue.

That was meant to be a reference to the Porsche Motorsport department, which was credited with developing the car, rather than to motor sport per se. But you probably realised that.  

fritz

d997h:

bluelines:

throt:

The old guys on here love those, plus aluminum wheel paint and Bee Gees tracks in the background. ....

That is how they like to roll  Riding low and dirty with the golden oldies.

well, and stripes...at least some of these old farts...

It is a shame that an 8-track player isn't an option.

Thanks, Kobalt!

16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

bluelines:

I moved from a manual Carrera to PDK too, but also still have a manual GT4.

I would not move back to the manual in the Carrera, never. The manual in the GT4 is in a different league however. So if the manual in the next GT3 is as well executed as in the GT4 then the choice will be very hard to make.

PDK is truly great. It lots of fun to use the paddles in manual mode, but one thing is missing and will always be missing... the direct connection to the car. With the manual gearbox you have to learn the RPM from the gear, hearing the engine, feeling the speed, etc. Knowing when to shift and when not. This gives you a connection to the car which an effortless click with a PDK paddle can never replace. PDK does a lot of other great things which manual can not, but this connection is the big thing which is gone with PDK. 

How is that different than driving a PDK car in manual mode? One still needs to learn the shift points for each gear and at what speed.

Whoopsy:

bluelines:

I moved from a manual Carrera to PDK too, but also still have a manual GT4.

I would not move back to the manual in the Carrera, never. The manual in the GT4 is in a different league however. So if the manual in the next GT3 is as well executed as in the GT4 then the choice will be very hard to make.

PDK is truly great. It lots of fun to use the paddles in manual mode, but one thing is missing and will always be missing... the direct connection to the car. With the manual gearbox you have to learn the RPM from the gear, hearing the engine, feeling the speed, etc. Knowing when to shift and when not. This gives you a connection to the car which an effortless click with a PDK paddle can never replace. PDK does a lot of other great things which manual can not, but this connection is the big thing which is gone with PDK. 

 

How is that different than driving a PDK car in manual mode? One still needs to learn the shift points for each gear and at what speed.

 

Yep, but its so much easier to learn with the PDK, obviously.

throt

"I Have Done It!".

991 GT3 pick up in October 2014.

Yes Whoopsy, you do get a small part of that connection when driving PDK in manual, which is why I find it much fun. But it is no way near as involving as with the manual gearbox. Even with PDK in manual you don't necessarily have to think, just keep pulling the paddle until PDK stops shifting down...

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

I think the key to have fun with PDK is to shift yourself. You want to get your engine braking correct and use that to really plant the car.

But just pulling the paddles without a thought is a mistake if you want to have fun and a good drive.

Treat the PDK as a manual but a very, very fast manual on downshifts.

Best way I could describe it is that manual shifting is more of an analog experience and PDK a digital one. Both require the control of the speed, RPMs, timing, etc but the execution and experience is very different, so while the end result is the same thing,  the experience is not. The PDK is superior in efficiency and confort at the same time, the manual is more involving because it requires greater amounts of input from the driver and connection from the feedbacks of the car. 

For some people the PDK offers so many advantages that they have no interest in a manual in any scenario,  for others the manual is the only option that gives them enough involvement for the driver experience they want, and for many it will depend on the particular car if they prefer manual or PDK on it, the type of driving it will be destined to, if they have one or several cars, etc. Or even a matter of wanting a change again, after having one tranny for a while you may way to have the other and switch between the two every other car.

--

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Carlos from Spain:

For some people the PDK offers so many advantages that they have no interest in a manual in any scenario,  for others the manual is the only option that gives them enough involvement for the driver experience they want, and for many it will depend on the particular car if they prefer manual or PDK on it, the type of driving it will be destined to, if they have one or several cars, etc. Or even a matter of wanting a change again, after having one tranny for a while you may way to have the other and switch between the two every other car.

+1