Crown

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MKSGR said:

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turbolite said:
Simple reason being is that the competitive landscape has dramatically changed from 2000 when the 996tt was introduced and Porsche has underestimated its competitors..
(

This last statement of yours is a perfect summary of the problem:

The 997TT is a slight improvement of the 996TTS.

However, the competitors have improved their cars much more than Porsche has.

The result: Porsche has lost its competitive advantage. The 997TT is not good enough.

I really hate to say it. However, let's face the truth.

P.S.: In writing this I still claim that the 997TT is faster than Gallardo/F430 up to 310kph

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993S said:
They ended by saying : the Turbo is the ideal car for the person who would like to buy their Mercedes from Porsche. This statement is a little over for sure but it gives a good idea what Porsche is doing with the Turbo.

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MKSGR said:

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993S said:
They ended by saying : the Turbo is the ideal car for the person who would like to buy their Mercedes from Porsche. This statement is a little over for sure but it gives a good idea what Porsche is doing with the Turbo.

My personal opionion is that all this GT talk about the 997TT is B/S: The 997TT is as much a GT as the old 996TT

I really hope that they manage to develop a GT2 which can set new benchmarks (and has PSM). Otherwise, I might have a problem...

Quote:
Crash said:

Quote:
MKSGR said:

Quote:
turbolite said:
Simple reason being is that the competitive landscape has dramatically changed from 2000 when the 996tt was introduced and Porsche has underestimated its competitors..
(

This last statement of yours is a perfect summary of the problem:

The 997TT is a slight improvement of the 996TTS.

However, the competitors have improved their cars much more than Porsche has.

The result: Porsche has lost its competitive advantage. The 997TT is not good enough.

I really hate to say it. However, let's face the truth.

P.S.: In writing this I still claim that the 997TT is faster than Gallardo/F430 up to 310kph

I always agree with you, but the one thing that doesn't let me just say "ditto" ist the 0-160 mph acceleration test. How can the Turbo be faster if the Gallardo is supposed to be quicker, according to the test? Looks like a real-world test is in order .

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Crash said:

Quote:
MKSGR said:

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993S said:
They ended by saying : the Turbo is the ideal car for the person who would like to buy their Mercedes from Porsche. This statement is a little over for sure but it gives a good idea what Porsche is doing with the Turbo.

My personal opionion is that all this GT talk about the 997TT is B/S: The 997TT is as much a GT as the old 996TT

I really hope that they manage to develop a GT2 which can set new benchmarks (and has PSM). Otherwise, I might have a problem...

No you don't. Audi R8 or the Gallardo . However, if the GT2 is going to have 530 PS and a top speed of close to 330 km/h, I'm sure you don't have to worry about it. The only downside might be the PASM system.

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MKSGR said:

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Crash said:

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MKSGR said:

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993S said:
They ended by saying : the Turbo is the ideal car for the person who would like to buy their Mercedes from Porsche. This statement is a little over for sure but it gives a good idea what Porsche is doing with the Turbo.

My personal opionion is that all this GT talk about the 997TT is B/S: The 997TT is as much a GT as the old 996TT

I really hope that they manage to develop a GT2 which can set new benchmarks (and has PSM). Otherwise, I might have a problem...

No you don't. Audi R8 or the Gallardo . However, if the GT2 is going to have 530 PS and a top speed of close to 330 km/h, I'm sure you don't have to worry about it. The only downside might be the PASM system.

I think I am not a Lamborghini guy... And the R8 with the big engine will not be available before 2008 (according to Kreso)

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KresoF1 said:
According to you AMS is right and Sport Auto is wrong...
You are die hard 997 Turbo fan? Well, I am sportscars enthusiast, not single brand fan.
How about recent comparison test in lates British EVO mag:
997 Turbo(manual)
0-60mph: 4.0s
0-100mph: 8.7s
0-160mph:27.5s

Lamborghini Gallardo
0-60mph: 4.3s
0-100mph:9.4s
0-160mph:24.2s

Gallardo is faster then Turbo from 0-120/130/140/150/160mph!
But, you will probably claim that EVO is very biased British magazine...

Imagine situation when Gallardo driver is driving 280km/h on the autobahn... When will 997 Turbo driver be able to overtake Her/Him? Never...

Quote:
MKSGR said:

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
According to you AMS is right and Sport Auto is wrong...
You are die hard 997 Turbo fan? Well, I am sportscars enthusiast, not single brand fan.
How about recent comparison test in lates British EVO mag:
997 Turbo(manual)
0-60mph: 4.0s
0-100mph: 8.7s
0-160mph:27.5s

Lamborghini Gallardo
0-60mph: 4.3s
0-100mph:9.4s
0-160mph:24.2s

Gallardo is faster then Turbo from 0-120/130/140/150/160mph!
But, you will probably claim that EVO is very biased British magazine...

Imagine situation when Gallardo driver is driving 280km/h on the autobahn... When will 997 Turbo driver be able to overtake Her/Him? Never...

Just found the ultimate piece of evidence that there is something very wrong with the EVO test.

The Sportscars magazine published a 0-156mph figure of 20.9 seconds for the 997TT manual.

This number is consitent with RC's and my tests. However, the EVO numbers are completely out of range.

Thus I reccomend to dump the EVO test

Quote:
MKSGR said:

Quote:
MKSGR said:

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
According to you AMS is right and Sport Auto is wrong...
You are die hard 997 Turbo fan? Well, I am sportscars enthusiast, not single brand fan.
How about recent comparison test in lates British EVO mag:
997 Turbo(manual)
0-60mph: 4.0s
0-100mph: 8.7s
0-160mph:27.5s

Lamborghini Gallardo
0-60mph: 4.3s
0-100mph:9.4s
0-160mph:24.2s

Gallardo is faster then Turbo from 0-120/130/140/150/160mph!
But, you will probably claim that EVO is very biased British magazine...

Imagine situation when Gallardo driver is driving 280km/h on the autobahn... When will 997 Turbo driver be able to overtake Her/Him? Never...

Just found the ultimate piece of evidence that there is something very wrong with the EVO test.

The Sportscars magazine published a 0-156mph figure of 20.9 seconds for the 997TT manual.

This number is consitent with RC's and my tests. However, the EVO numbers are completely out of range.

Thus I reccomend to dump the EVO test

BTW: Based on the Sportscars magazine numbers the delta between 997TT and Gallardo INCREASES at higher speeds - i.e. the 997TT gains distance the faster both cars go.

This is also consistent with the recent 997TT/Gallardo AB video posted on rennteam.

I guess, we have found several strong indications now that the Gallardo is indeed slower than the 997TT

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Crash said:

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MKSGR said:

Quote:
MKSGR said:

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
According to you AMS is right and Sport Auto is wrong...
You are die hard 997 Turbo fan? Well, I am sportscars enthusiast, not single brand fan.
How about recent comparison test in lates British EVO mag:
997 Turbo(manual)
0-60mph: 4.0s
0-100mph: 8.7s
0-160mph:27.5s

Lamborghini Gallardo
0-60mph: 4.3s
0-100mph:9.4s
0-160mph:24.2s

Gallardo is faster then Turbo from 0-120/130/140/150/160mph!
But, you will probably claim that EVO is very biased British magazine...

Imagine situation when Gallardo driver is driving 280km/h on the autobahn... When will 997 Turbo driver be able to overtake Her/Him? Never...

Just found the ultimate piece of evidence that there is something very wrong with the EVO test.

The Sportscars magazine published a 0-156mph figure of 20.9 seconds for the 997TT manual.

This number is consitent with RC's and my tests. However, the EVO numbers are completely out of range.

Thus I reccomend to dump the EVO test

BTW: Based on the Sportscars magazine numbers the delta between 997TT and Gallardo INCREASES at higher speeds - i.e. the 997TT gains distance the faster both cars go.

This is also consistent with the recent 997TT/Gallardo AB video posted on rennteam.

I guess, we have found several strong indications now that the Gallardo is indeed slower than the 997TT

Or, pehaps, a good indication why it's a bad idea to buy a 997TT without SC?

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zzboba said:

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That's truly amazing and I think magazines should always test these cars to 300 km/h.

i agree! that separates the wheat from the chaff!

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Grant said:

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zzboba said:

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That's truly amazing and I think magazines should always test these cars to 300 km/h.

i agree! that separates the wheat from the chaff!

Well, it does separate the quick cars from the fast cars. I can understand why that test would be important for someone in Germany (wish we had autobahns too )

But, there are many quick cars that are great fun in the mountains or on a track (where going 300kph is not even possible) - I wouldn't call them the "chaff"

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Crash said:

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Grant said:

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zzboba said:

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That's truly amazing and I think magazines should always test these cars to 300 km/h.

i agree! that separates the wheat from the chaff!

Well, it does separate the quick cars from the fast cars. I can understand why that test would be important for someone in Germany (wish we had autobahns too )

But, there are many quick cars that are great fun in the mountains or on a track (where going 300kph is not even possible) - I wouldn't call them the "chaff"

Well, they do look like chaff coming off a jet fighter when the faster car leaves them in the dust on the Autobahn .

Quote:
Grant said:

Quote:
Crash said:

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Grant said:

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zzboba said:

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That's truly amazing and I think magazines should always test these cars to 300 km/h.

i agree! that separates the wheat from the chaff!

Well, it does separate the quick cars from the fast cars. I can understand why that test would be important for someone in Germany (wish we had autobahns too )

But, there are many quick cars that are great fun in the mountains or on a track (where going 300kph is not even possible) - I wouldn't call them the "chaff"

Well, they do look like chaff coming off a jet fighter when the faster car leaves them in the dust on the Autobahn .

True, but a Benz 600 Twin Turbo will do that too and there's no great pleasure in driving one of those

Quote:
Grant said:

Quote:
Crash said:

Quote:
Grant said:

Quote:
zzboba said:

Quote:
That's truly amazing and I think magazines should always test these cars to 300 km/h.

i agree! that separates the wheat from the chaff!

Well, it does separate the quick cars from the fast cars. I can understand why that test would be important for someone in Germany (wish we had autobahns too )

But, there are many quick cars that are great fun in the mountains or on a track (where going 300kph is not even possible) - I wouldn't call them the "chaff"

Well, they do look like chaff coming off a jet fighter when the faster car leaves them in the dust on the Autobahn .

True, but a Benz 600 Twin Turbo will do that too and there's no great pleasure in driving one of those

Quote:
Crash said:

Quote:
Grant said:

Quote:
Crash said:

Quote:
Grant said:

Quote:
zzboba said:

Quote:
That's truly amazing and I think magazines should always test these cars to 300 km/h.

i agree! that separates the wheat from the chaff!

Well, it does separate the quick cars from the fast cars. I can understand why that test would be important for someone in Germany (wish we had autobahns too )

But, there are many quick cars that are great fun in the mountains or on a track (where going 300kph is not even possible) - I wouldn't call them the "chaff"

Well, they do look like chaff coming off a jet fighter when the faster car leaves them in the dust on the Autobahn .

True, but a Benz 600 Twin Turbo will do that too and there's no great pleasure in driving one of those

Well, you're correct, but it just seems funny that a luxo-barge can beat a Porsche and a Ferrari .

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MKSGR said:

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Crash said:

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Grant said:

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Crash said:

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Grant said:

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zzboba said:

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That's truly amazing and I think magazines should always test these cars to 300 km/h.

i agree! that separates the wheat from the chaff!

Well, it does separate the quick cars from the fast cars. I can understand why that test would be important for someone in Germany (wish we had autobahns too )

But, there are many quick cars that are great fun in the mountains or on a track (where going 300kph is not even possible) - I wouldn't call them the "chaff"

Well, they do look like chaff coming off a jet fighter when the faster car leaves them in the dust on the Autobahn .

True, but a Benz 600 Twin Turbo will do that too and there's no great pleasure in driving one of those

Well, you're correct, but it just seems funny that a luxo-barge can beat a Porsche and a Ferrari .

It cannot beat the 997TT at least.

Powercar also tested the S65 (same issue as the 997TT test).

Acceleration figures (997TT Manual with SC / S65):

0-100 kph: 3.7 / 4.5
0-200 kph: 12.1 / 13.6
0-250 kph: 20.9 / 22.8

Quote:
Crash said:
Well, you're correct, but it just seems funny that a luxo-barge can beat a Porsche and a Ferrari .

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Crash said:

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MKSGR said:

Quote:
Crash said:

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Grant said:

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Crash said:

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Grant said:

Quote:
zzboba said:

Quote:
That's truly amazing and I think magazines should always test these cars to 300 km/h.

i agree! that separates the wheat from the chaff!

Well, it does separate the quick cars from the fast cars. I can understand why that test would be important for someone in Germany (wish we had autobahns too )

But, there are many quick cars that are great fun in the mountains or on a track (where going 300kph is not even possible) - I wouldn't call them the "chaff"

Well, they do look like chaff coming off a jet fighter when the faster car leaves them in the dust on the Autobahn .

True, but a Benz 600 Twin Turbo will do that too and there's no great pleasure in driving one of those

Well, you're correct, but it just seems funny that a luxo-barge can beat a Porsche and a Ferrari .

It cannot beat the 997TT at least.

Powercar also tested the S65 (same issue as the 997TT test).

Acceleration figures (997TT Manual with SC / S65):

0-100 kph: 3.7 / 4.5
0-200 kph: 12.1 / 13.6
0-250 kph: 20.9 / 22.8

I should've said the Carrera . It seems that the TT even INCREASES its lead from 200 to 250 km/h. That's very good! Any word on how fast the 430 did it?

Quote:
Crash said:

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MKSGR said:

Quote:
Crash said:

Quote:
Grant said:

Quote:
Crash said:

Quote:
Grant said:

Quote:
zzboba said:

Quote:
That's truly amazing and I think magazines should always test these cars to 300 km/h.

i agree! that separates the wheat from the chaff!

Well, it does separate the quick cars from the fast cars. I can understand why that test would be important for someone in Germany (wish we had autobahns too )

But, there are many quick cars that are great fun in the mountains or on a track (where going 300kph is not even possible) - I wouldn't call them the "chaff"

Well, they do look like chaff coming off a jet fighter when the faster car leaves them in the dust on the Autobahn .

True, but a Benz 600 Twin Turbo will do that too and there's no great pleasure in driving one of those

Well, you're correct, but it just seems funny that a luxo-barge can beat a Porsche and a Ferrari .

It cannot beat the 997TT at least.

Powercar also tested the S65 (same issue as the 997TT test).

Acceleration figures (997TT Manual with SC / S65):

0-100 kph: 3.7 / 4.5
0-200 kph: 12.1 / 13.6
0-250 kph: 20.9 / 22.8

I should've said the Carrera . It seems that the TT even INCREASES its lead from 200 to 250 km/h. That's very good! Any word on how fast the 430 did it?

Quote:
MKSGR said:

Quote:
Grant said:

Quote:
Crash said:

Quote:
Grant said:

Quote:
zzboba said:

Quote:
That's truly amazing and I think magazines should always test these cars to 300 km/h.

i agree! that separates the wheat from the chaff!

Well, it does separate the quick cars from the fast cars. I can understand why that test would be important for someone in Germany (wish we had autobahns too )

But, there are many quick cars that are great fun in the mountains or on a track (where going 300kph is not even possible) - I wouldn't call them the "chaff"

Well, they do look like chaff coming off a jet fighter when the faster car leaves them in the dust on the Autobahn .

True, but a Benz 600 Twin Turbo will do that too and there's no great pleasure in driving one of those

BTW: The Mercedes S65 (V12 Bi-Turbo with 612hp) is just 2 seconds slower than the 997TT (0-250kph)

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Crash said:
Would be interesting to see how it performs against the two in a side-by-side test. Also, I wonder if the Powerkit will match the C6Z in speed or not (as that car seems to be the king of the straight line currently).

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VKSF said:

Don't have specific times but have a Lond pal who owns 599, 997TT Tip, SL65 and Enzo...he recently took his cars to a track for some simple msmts....his casual obsvn was that for 100-300KPH accel, Enzo is still king, but then it's 599 and 997TT Tip in a close battle, w/599 edging out 997TT Tip....and SL65 trailing 997TT Tip...

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MKSGR said:

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VKSF said:

Don't have specific times but have a Lond pal who owns 599, 997TT Tip, SL65 and Enzo...he recently took his cars to a track for some simple msmts....his casual obsvn was that for 100-300KPH accel, Enzo is still king, but then it's 599 and 997TT Tip in a close battle, w/599 edging out 997TT Tip....and SL65 trailing 997TT Tip...

Very interesting report Pretty much in line with what I would have expected (although it is interesting that the TT Tip offers similar 100-300kph performance as the 599GTB).

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VKSF said:

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MKSGR said:

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VKSF said:

Don't have specific times but have a Lond pal who owns 599, 997TT Tip, SL65 and Enzo...he recently took his cars to a track for some simple msmts....his casual obsvn was that for 100-300KPH accel, Enzo is still king, but then it's 599 and 997TT Tip in a close battle, w/599 edging out 997TT Tip....and SL65 trailing 997TT Tip...

Very interesting report Pretty much in line with what I would have expected (although it is interesting that the TT Tip offers similar 100-300kph performance as the 599GTB).

Indeed ....know a few guys getting early 599/997TT/65s in NYC/SF over next few mths....we can do our casual, amateur 100-200KPH tests on local, urban fwys, but we rely on our German pals (or Lond pals visiting the AB) to do 100-300KPH runs...and provide us early feedback on 599, since it sounds like 599 is the car of the season in MC, at least until the 599s head back to rainy Lond/Germany this Fall for proper daily, rain-weather urban "testing"....

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MKSGR said:

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VKSF said:

Quote:
MKSGR said:

Quote:
VKSF said:

Don't have specific times but have a Lond pal who owns 599, 997TT Tip, SL65 and Enzo...he recently took his cars to a track for some simple msmts....his casual obsvn was that for 100-300KPH accel, Enzo is still king, but then it's 599 and 997TT Tip in a close battle, w/599 edging out 997TT Tip....and SL65 trailing 997TT Tip...

Very interesting report Pretty much in line with what I would have expected (although it is interesting that the TT Tip offers similar 100-300kph performance as the 599GTB).

Indeed ....know a few guys getting early 599/997TT/65s in NYC/SF over next few mths....we can do our casual, amateur 100-200KPH tests on local, urban fwys, but we rely on our German pals (or Lond pals visiting the AB) to do 100-300KPH runs...and provide us early feedback on 599, since it sounds like 599 is the car of the season in MC, at least until the 599s head back to rainy Lond/Germany this Fall for proper daily, rain-weather urban "testing"....

The thing is that I plan to wait until I testdrive the 599GTB (which would also enable me to take some performance figures like 200-300kph etc.). I would like to see clearer when Porsche will introduce the new GT2 and whether it will have PSM. As soon as I have sufficient information on Porsche's product pipeline I will also test the 599 in order to decide which car is best for me.

I will buy either 997TTx50/GT2 or 599GTB. Not both