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    Jul 26, 2006 12:56:16 AM

    Bull&Bear
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    Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    Porsche is getting ready to roll out a new seven-speed twin-clutch Direct-Shift Gearbox for everything from the Boxster to the forthcoming GT1 supercar, according to a new report by AutoWeek. Citing patent filings, the magazine said Porsche appeared to be planning to offer the technology on all its models. Porsche has long offered customers a choice of either a standard manual gearbox, or a Tiptronic automatic transmission. The DSG system would likely replace the Tiptronic technology, and could even woo some six-speed fans due to its incredible shift speed. According to AutoWeek, Porsche had hoped to have DSG ready for the launch of the 2007 Porsche 911 Turbo, but fell short of that goal.

    Jul 26, 2006 2:04:38 AM

    Holminator
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    Reply to: Bull&Bear

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I found the link! This is excellent news! Hello 911TT for my new car! Bye-bye Lambo GAY-ardo and over-priced F430! Although the Tesla has me a little conflicted. Eh.

    http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060725/FREE/60724030/1024/TOC01ARCHIVE

    Jul 26, 2006 7:30:10 AM

    ed_moree
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    Reply to: Bull&Bear

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    I'm expecting to see it with the restyling of the 997.

    Jul 26, 2006 11:23:30 AM

    devo
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    Reply to: ed_moree

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    That is great, however, it could still be a couple of years.

    Jul 26, 2006 2:40:27 PM

    omeko3
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    Reply to: devo

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    I would rather have a manual or SMG anyday

    Jul 26, 2006 3:05:51 PM

    iia
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    Reply to: omeko3

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    Quote:
    omeko3 said:
    I would rather have a manual or SMG anyday


    Why?

    Jul 26, 2006 3:10:42 PM

    omeko3
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    Reply to: iia

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    faster shifts, more sporty, can skip gears.

    Jul 26, 2006 3:22:30 PM

    Pink Panther
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    Reply to: omeko3

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    DSG will never be as good as SMG because the system is flawed. The second clutch prepares your next gear for a smooth ultra quick change and that works great except when you want to down shift. The Audi DSGsystem always prepared the next gear up which is logical. If you trick the system with a kick down it takes for ever to select the lower gear - much longer that other popular slushboxes.

    What they will gain is a few tenths off the 0-100kmh stats and that will increase sales because most of us are sad like that.

    Jul 26, 2006 3:26:43 PM

    iia
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    Reply to: omeko3

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    Although I like the feel of SMG than DSG (feel like auto), I can't agree SMG shifts faster. And in fact, SMG takes 80ms and DSG takes 8ms for sequentail upshift.

    Regarding skip gears, as for faster acceleration, you want sequential upshift and for deceleration, braking takes more time than downshift, why do you want to skip gears?

    Jul 26, 2006 3:41:26 PM

    fantasma
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    Reply to: iia

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    DSG tries to guess if your next shift will be an up or downshift. If it guesses right it is much quicker than SMG. If it doesn't guess right it takes the same time as SMG. In other words: it is always as good as or better than a SMG/F1/CambioCorsa/e-gear box.

    Regarding skiping gears: if you drive on a track sequential up and downshifts are always the best. The only situation I can imagine where you would skip gears is when yo initiate overtaking on a public road.

    /fantasma

    Jul 26, 2006 3:45:31 PM

    AJVIP
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    Reply to: iia

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    Quote:
    iia said:
    Although I like the feel of SMG than DSG (feel like auto), I can't agree SMG shifts faster. And in fact, SMG takes 80ms and DSG takes 8ms for sequentail upshift.

    Regarding skip gears, as for faster acceleration, you want sequential upshift and for deceleration, braking takes more time than downshift, why do you want to skip gears?



    To torch someone on the highway of course.

    Jul 26, 2006 3:46:14 PM

    omeko3
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    Reply to: iia

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    Quote:
    iia said:
    Although I like the feel of SMG than DSG (feel like auto), I can't agree SMG shifts faster. And in fact, SMG takes 80ms and DSG takes 8ms for sequentail upshift.

    Regarding skip gears, as for faster acceleration, you want sequential upshift and for deceleration, braking takes more time than downshift, why do you want to skip gears?



    Because if I am cruising around on the highway in the top gear and suddenly want some acceleration I do not want to have to wait for it to shift through 4 gears to be able to get some power.

    Jul 26, 2006 3:47:09 PM

    omeko3
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    Reply to: omeko3

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    But if you say it shifts in 8ms how come the bugatti's takes 150ms when it is essentially the same transmission made by a parent company?

    Jul 26, 2006 3:59:09 PM

    fantasma
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    Reply to: omeko3

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    There seems to be some confusion about how the DSG box works. It is not a true sequential box in the sense that it has to make 3 downshifts to shift from 5th to 2nd gear.

    So there are two situations:
    1) You shift to the pre-selected gear. This is done extremely quickly since it only has to release one clutch and apply the other clutch (simultaneously)
    2) You shift to a gear that is not pre-selected. Then it has to make 1 gear shift (even if you move from 5th to 2nd) and then apply/release the two clutches. This can be done marginally faster compared to a SMG box.

    I have driven a VW Golf GTi with a DSG-box and the shifts are incredibly quick. Possibly too quick (Playstation-like).


    /fantasma

    Jul 26, 2006 5:45:37 PM

    Genki
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    Reply to: fantasma

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    i've driven both SMG II and DSG from audi TT. IMO the DSG is far superior and reliable than SMG.

    Jul 26, 2006 11:00:48 PM

    Bull&Bear
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    Reply to: Genki

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    prob see in turbo S or new 997S facelift in 2008. the pic seen on the board seem to me the new C4S

    Jul 26, 2006 11:07:45 PM

    yemenmocha
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    Reply to: fantasma

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    Safe to assume it will have the precise RPM engine rev feature when downshifting that SMG has? I loved that when I got a chance to drive the M5 - always matching the proper revs so I don't have to fuss with heal-toe.

    Jul 27, 2006 12:38:25 AM

    bstew
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    Reply to: Bull&Bear

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    Quote:
    Bull&Bear said:
    The DSG system would likely replace the Tiptronic technology, and could even woo some six-speed fans due to its incredible shift speed.



    Sorry but I don't buy into this. If a person wants a manual they want a manual. If they want an automatic then they will get the Tip/DSG. Not sure why a person who likes a manual gearshift would now want an automatic . I have a manual for the enjoyment of changing gears (i.e. left foot clutch, right hand gears). But this is just me and I am sure many will disagree.

    Jul 27, 2006 1:28:27 AM

    superfans
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    Reply to: bstew

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    If DSG is that great, then how come the high performance models of Audi (RS4 and RS6) do not use the DSG technology?

    Jul 27, 2006 1:46:43 AM

    devo
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    Reply to: superfans

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    Because the manual is more engaging.

    Jul 27, 2006 1:48:04 AM

    devo
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    Reply to: superfans

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    manual for me.

    Jul 27, 2006 2:04:11 AM

    omeko3
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    Reply to: devo

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    but if dsg is so great how come race cars do not use it. SMG is what they use. is it because the dsg cannot handel the torque?

    Jul 27, 2006 2:07:52 AM

    omeko3
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    Reply to: omeko3

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    I was just reading up on the getrag site and they made it seem as though a SMG was the fastest shifting transmission and most sporty compared to the dsg

    Jul 27, 2006 2:21:29 AM

    Pink Panther
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    Reply to: omeko3

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    I had an M3 CSL at the same time as an A3 3.2 DSG (wifes) and found the DSG very slow on kick down. So slow it was dangerous. When it guessed right it was quicker than SMG and much smoother but SMG was more brutal and far better for a sports car.

    Jul 27, 2006 2:59:01 AM

    stork
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    Reply to: devo

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    I agree, call me old fashion, but I still like the feel of a manual. I had a SMG (which is better than DSG) on a M3. Not a bad combination, but no fun..no guts...no glory. To be honest, I bet I cannot manually shift as fast as the SMG, but who cares. The fun is is the feel of a car. I can go hundreds of miles and hour and accelerate really fast in a 737 as a passenger, but no feed back ruins the ride. I think that is why we have options in this world. Some people buy Nash Ramblers and others buy Porsches.

    Jul 27, 2006 3:01:50 AM

    Moogle
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    Reply to: omeko3

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    Quote:
    omeko3 said:
    but if dsg is so great how come race cars do not use it. SMG is what they use. is it because the dsg cannot handel the torque?



    race cars tend to use straight cut dog teeth gearboxes, much like those found in motorcycles with temporary throttle cutoff during (usually) clutchless shifting.

    completely different animal. those are quite fast and quite light, if you can deal with a 90+ db whining noise and nearly no tolerance for error - on a street application.

    Jul 27, 2006 7:25:05 AM

    fantasma
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    Reply to: superfans

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    Quote:
    superfans said:
    If DSG is that great, then how come the high performance models of Audi (RS4 and RS6) do not use the DSG technology?



    Well. That is easy to answer! The first generation DSG box from VW/Audi was developed with Borg Warner for cars with a transversal engine and has been used in the Audi TT, Audi A3, VW Golf, etc.
    Tha Audi A4 and A6 series including the RS models have a longitudinal engine and the current DSG box doesn't fit. Audi (BorgWarner) is developing a new 7-speed DSG box for it's longitudinal engines. It will be released with the new A4 (in 2008?)
    This box might be similar to the one Porsche will use.

    On a side note: Getrag is also working on a 7-speed dual clutch gearbox that will be used by Ford, Citroën and Peugeot among others. BMW is also working on a dual clutch tranamission (ZSG) together with BorgWarner (I'm not sure, could be Getrag as well). The Fiat group (including Ferrari, Maserati and Alfa Romeo) is reportedly working on a dual clutch transmission (with Magneti Marelli, I guess).

    /fantasma

    Jul 27, 2006 11:11:58 AM

    Oxonian
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    Reply to: fantasma

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    The CTO of Honda Aguri Formula 1 team is my friend. According to him, Formula 1 bans the use of dual clutch transmissions. Only single clutch is allowed. However, they are now using advanced computing to "guess" when to engage this single clutch and minimize shift time (otherwise the gears will be destroyed if the engagement guessing is miscalculated).

    Most probably, the F1 developments in SMG will trickle down to consumer cars, but from my understanding, DSG has more potential for superior performance.

    In sum, DSG is architecturally superior to SMG, at least from what I understood from him.

    Jul 27, 2006 11:44:15 AM

    dreamcar
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    Reply to: stork

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    Quote:
    stork said:
    I agree, call me old fashion, but I still like the feel of a manual. I had a SMG (which is better than DSG) on a M3.



    I am sorry but I disagree. BMW's SMG is simply agricultural in every way compared with VW Audi's DSG.

    Jul 27, 2006 11:46:24 AM

    dreamcar
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    Reply to: omeko3

    Re: Porsche to intro New DSG - 7 speed gearbox

    Quote:
    omeko3 said:
    faster shifts, more sporty, can skip gears.



    You are deluding yourself. There is no way you can shift gears as fast as DSG does.
     
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