Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Car and Driver - comparison test Z06 v 997 TT v F430 - Page1

Jul 22, 2006 3:58:11 PM

Silver Bullet: Veteran; Loc: Canada; Posts: 1126, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2004; Reply to: Gary Hoffman

Re: Car and Driver - comparison test Z06 v 997 TT v F430

Are you sure that's a GT3 Cup Car and not a regular GT3? The wing on the Cup Cars was different.

Either way, both yours and the Porsche are great cars. Which will win in a race on a track will be determined more by the driver than the car. Same driver, I'm not sure which would win if it really was a Cup Car . . .

If your point is that the Z06 is a great car, well, that point's been made here.

Always nice to see pics from the track!

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Jul 22, 2006 4:01:02 PM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002; Reply to: Crash

Re: Car and Driver - comparison test Z06 v 997 TT v F430

Quote:
Crash said:
Right after they remove all you poor Texans from Dubya's hiney.

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Jul 22, 2006 4:14:58 PM

sdy284: Expert; Loc: Wisconsin, USA; Posts: 1348, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 7, 2005; Reply to: Silver Bullet

Re: Car and Driver - comparison test Z06 v 997 TT v F430

Quote:
Silver Bullet said:
Are you sure that's a GT3 Cup Car and not a regular GT3? The wing on the Cup Cars was different.
/quote]

i thought the same thing, i dont think that the GT3 in the pic is a Cup car

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Jul 22, 2006 4:47:05 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: Ron (Houston)

Re: Car and Driver - comparison test Z06 v 997 TT v F430

Quote:
Ron (Houston) said:
Quote:
Crash said:
Right after they remove all you poor Texans from Dubya's hiney.

Sorry, shouldn't have phrased it this way. I still maintain that I don't like his tone, though.

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Jul 22, 2006 4:49:32 PM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002; Reply to: Crash

Re: Car and Driver - comparison test Z06 v 997 TT v F430

Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
Ron (Houston) said:
Quote:
Crash said:
Right after they remove all you poor Texans from Dubya's hiney.

Sorry, shouldn't have phrased it this way. I still maintain that I don't like his tone, though.

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Jul 22, 2006 5:17:54 PM

devo: Veteran; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 1107, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2006; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Car and Driver - comparison test Z06 v 997 TT v F430

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Quote:
devo said:
I give credit where it's due and I won't give it where it isn't. The Z is a great fast car in a straight line and in the twisties. It's marginally faster than the turbo in most situations. It's also grossly pales in quality. Poor paint, fit and finish, interior, ride quality, etc...
You get what you pay for.
The only reason the argument exists is because of the price difference. If the prices were the same, nobody in their right mind would buy the vette. ;

You are welcome to attempt to convince Porsche to lower the TT price.

Good luck!

Willing to sacrifice paying extra money for more luxury but will also accept not having first in class performance?

Might I suggest a nice SL550 soon?

Yes, I am willing to sacrifice first in some speed contests. I think that's what I've already said.
You win Jim, the corvette is faster. I'll say it again. YOU WIN.
It's so funny. The only thing the vette owners tout is that the vette is faster. WOW. Did I say the vette is faster. Who cares.
As far as price; obviously Porsche won't lower the price. But can you imagine if they did; supply would never keep up with demand. Conversely, if chevy raised the price of the vette to the level of the turbo; they probably wouldn't sell one. (Did I say you win already, oh I did, sorry) Except, of course, Ronnie. He'd buy one at any cost.

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Jul 22, 2006 5:26:17 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: devo

Re: Car and Driver - comparison test Z06 v 997 TT v F430

devo you missed the point i think.

The Turbo is the historical and iconic Porsche sports car, not GT car.

Comfort, noise levels and seatbelt color options should come
secondary to that. Its supposed to be a extreme machine not a upengined 997 "L".

Porsche should have the superior accelleration and v max.

When they settle for second place and get their customers to accept that also, it makes Porsche look like they dont really care for the company vision that made them famous.

I dont care who buys what car here or why.

Porsche should maintain as the leader for performance in the sports car heirarchy.

Apparently the Porsche 997TT needs a small shot of adrenalin from their content people.

There is no such thing as a second place winner.

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Jul 22, 2006 5:38:34 PM

Hurst: Veteran; Loc: Potomac, MD; Posts: 1255, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2005; Reply to: devo

Re: Car and Driver - comparison test Z06 v 997 TT v F430

Unfortunately I don't understand where the direction of these repeated TT/Z/430 variant posts is? What are we trying to accomplish by berating all of these cars?

This is symptomatic of internet/forum culture. It is as if we were a group of sophists discussing the nature of the elements and our endeavors would realize some truth?

Unfortunately, all of our quibbing online doesn't change the nature of these cars. It really only reflects our fanaticism, especially when these posts get nasty and filled with false hubris and contempt. The only thing that does effect the nature of these car companies is sales.

If you're not happy with the new TT, go to your dealer and tell him, "I don't want to buy it because I'm afraid of getting smoked by a Z06." Fair enough, they just lost a valued customer. But your dealer just might let you in on a little kernel of knowledge:

The days of a company such as Porsche, creating an overwhelming and dominant group class competitor such as the Turbo of yore (993TT) are over. It simply isn't possible to do economically in the competitive field of the world for a variety of reasons (globalized technology, market forces, long term profitability prognostication).

Furthermore, the group that we on the internet just fabricated to create comparisons (F430/TT/Z) is completely erroneous. It might hold conversation on the net, but on the road it is rarely held up.

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Jul 22, 2006 5:44:14 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: Hurst

Re: Car and Driver - comparison test Z06 v 997 TT v F430

Hurst the whole street race fantasy match up is not the point.

The point is the driving experience and the money spent.

The 997TT could use a jolt of GT3 crispness and some tweaking for v max and 0-150mph time.

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Jul 22, 2006 7:44:54 PM

rhino: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Island , Saint Lucia; Posts: 2866, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 26, 2006; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Car and Driver - comparison test Z06 v 997 TT v F430

not to mention a diet

oh sorry I still love the 997TT, but it would be nice to smoke the ZO6 in every category

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Jul 22, 2006 8:01:18 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: rhino

Re: Car and Driver - comparison test Z06 v 997 TT v F430

Quote:
rhino said:
not to mention a diet oh sorry I still love the 997TT, but it would be nice to smoke the ZO6 in every category

Porsche decided to cater to a different (more soft) demographic with the Turbo. It's still incredibly high-performance, but not the top performer (although it's close). I guess the GT2 has taken the place of the no-compromise sports car (although I crige at the idea of the PASM in a race-bred Porsche). With 530 horsepower and weight, similar to that of the Corvette, it's bound to become the benchmark, even more so because of it having PSM this time (which makes it more likely that there will be enough owners, who actually survive, to rave about its hair-raising performance

).

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Jul 22, 2006 8:29:21 PM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: Crash

Re: Car and Driver - comparison test Z06 v 997 TT v F430

Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
rhino said:
not to mention a diet oh sorry I still love the 997TT, but it would be nice to smoke the ZO6 in every category

Porsche decided to cater to a different (more soft) demographic with the Turbo. It's still incredibly high-performance, but not the top performer (although it's close). I guess the GT2 has taken the place of the no-compromise sports car (although I crige at the idea of the PASM in a race-bred Porsche). With 530 horsepower and weight, similar to that of the Corvette, it's bound to become the benchmark, even more so because of it having PSM this time (which makes it more likely that there will be enough owners, who actually survive, to rave about its hair-raising performance ).

Given that P struggles to even sell ?100/yr GT2s, doubt many buyers/mfrs really care too much about cars for hard-core, wkend racecar driver wannabe buyers

....throw in ?500/yr GT3/RS and 30ish (sold for a ?2-3 yr period) FXX and supply prob supersaturates global hard-core, manly, wannabe-racecar driver demand.....

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Jul 22, 2006 8:44:17 PM

Hurst: Veteran; Loc: Potomac, MD; Posts: 1255, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2005; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Car and Driver - comparison test Z06 v 997 TT v F430

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Hurst the whole street race fantasy match up is not the point.

The point is the driving experience and the money spent.

The 997TT could use a jolt of GT3 crispness and some tweaking for v max and 0-150mph time.

Alright. The driving experience is never questioned in these posts comparing Z06/TT . It is always pissing contest, comparitively.

VKSF makes a great point as well, in that the more hardcore versions of these cars (a la GT2, GT3RS) do not sell much at all because the market isn't tilted towards this sector . Let's be serious, Porsche is smart. They cater to their customers, and the majority of their pool (albeit not the most loyal or knowledgable portion) doesn't care that the TT is a bit fat or is edged out in some performance standings by Z06s...

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Jul 22, 2006 9:04:38 PM

LoranTw: Senior; Loc: Canada; Posts: 569, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 14, 2006; Reply to: WBH

Re: Car and Driver - comparison test Z06 v 997 TT v F430

Quote:
VKSF said:
Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
rhino said:
not to mention a diet oh sorry I still love the 997TT, but it would be nice to smoke the ZO6 in every category

Porsche decided to cater to a different (more soft) demographic with the Turbo. It's still incredibly high-performance, but not the top performer (although it's close). I guess the GT2 has taken the place of the no-compromise sports car (although I crige at the idea of the PASM in a race-bred Porsche). With 530 horsepower and weight, similar to that of the Corvette, it's bound to become the benchmark, even more so because of it having PSM this time (which makes it more likely that there will be enough owners, who actually survive, to rave about its hair-raising performance ).

Given that P struggles to even sell ?100/yr GT2s, doubt many buyers/mfrs really care too much about cars for hard-core, wkend racecar driver wannabe buyers ....throw in ?500/yr GT3/RS and 30ish (sold for a ?2-3 yr period) FXX and supply prob supersaturates global hard-core, manly, wannabe-racecar driver demand.....

Could it be from a marketing perspective, creating a car like the turbo gt2 for the track and winning races helps to sell more AWD turbos? The value is indirect..

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Jul 22, 2006 9:15:50 PM

Silver Bullet: Veteran; Loc: Canada; Posts: 1126, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2004; Reply to: LoranTw

Re: Car and Driver - comparison test Z06 v 997 TT v F430

"Porsche is smart. They cater to their customers, and the majority of their pool (albeit not the most loyal or knowledgable portion) doesn't care that the TT is a bit fat or is edged out in some performance standings by Z06s"

I think 911TT customers DO care that a Z06 can outperform them. When they spend that much money, they want to know that they've got the best. They deserve bragging rights.

Corvette is turning the tables, and good for them. Now all the Porsche fans (myself included) can brag about is how refined the Turbo is, how it's an all round - all weather supercar (while the Corvette wins on the track). This is, IMO, a serious blow.

Sportscars are compared by performance numbers. While the average driver can't come close to repeating those performances, they still mean a lot.

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Jul 22, 2006 11:01:19 PM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: Silver Bullet

Re: Car and Driver - comparison test Z06 v 997 TT v F430

Quote:
Silver Bullet said:
I think 911TT customers DO care that a Z06 can outperform them. When they spend that much money, they want to know that they've got the best. They deserve bragging rights.

Do you think Porsche could have released the 997 Turbo with 600 hp?? Do you think GM could have done the same with the C6Z?? So why didn't either manufacturer do that?? Well, it's all about selling cars, and if they went for the home run with +600 hp, where do they go from there over the next production cycle or two?? Porsche has to leave room for the 997 Turbo S and the 997 GT2. GM has to consider where the Blue Devil will fit. The bottom line is the performance thing is an almost never ending leap frog by manufacturers, and "who's faster" is just a matter of "timing".

I don't understand the way some people think. For some reason they don't like their car as much if some other car is marginally faster. And I'd offer that wanting "bragging rights" is a juvenal approach to driving cars, as is the "marquis versus marquis" verbal battle.

I personally don't care *in the least* if some other sports car is faster than my 996 Turbo...I like my car exactly the same no matter where it falls in performance.

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Jul 22, 2006 11:14:11 PM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: LoranTw

Re: Car and Driver - comparison test Z06 v 997 TT v F430

Quote:
LoranTw said:
Quote:
VKSF said:
Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
rhino said:
not to mention a diet oh sorry I still love the 997TT, but it would be nice to smoke the ZO6 in every category

Porsche decided to cater to a different (more soft) demographic with the Turbo. It's still incredibly high-performance, but not the top performer (although it's close). I guess the GT2 has taken the place of the no-compromise sports car (although I crige at the idea of the PASM in a race-bred Porsche). With 530 horsepower and weight, similar to that of the Corvette, it's bound to become the benchmark, even more so because of it having PSM this time (which makes it more likely that there will be enough owners, who actually survive, to rave about its hair-raising performance ).

Given that P struggles to even sell ?100/yr GT2s, doubt many buyers/mfrs really care too much about cars for hard-core, wkend racecar driver wannabe buyers ....throw in ?500/yr GT3/RS and 30ish (sold for a ?2-3 yr period) FXX and supply prob supersaturates global hard-core, manly, wannabe-racecar driver demand.....

Could it be from a marketing perspective, creating a car like the turbo gt2 for the track and winning races helps to sell more AWD turbos? The value is indirect..

Agree w/you...there's definitely indirect "halo" value in selling cars like CGT/GT2/FXX, etc....what the financial/marketing/engineering execs will scuffle over is how much does the mfr need to invest in maintaining a racecar-worthy image to sell the higher-volume (15K/yr total) 997TT/SL55/430 at maximum prices...

Sadly, my sense is 90%+ of 430/SL55/997TT buyers are just buying/leasing a brand image....guys on rennteam may actively debate nuances of N-ring times, etc, but most buyers just want to know what's the mthly pmt; will the wife sign off on it; and will it fit their golf bags for the wkend drive to the country club?.....

But on the bright side, higher volumes and greater profits for F/MB/P mean greater competition; more R&D dollars for future cars; better crash/reliability data for future cars; and cheaper cars (or at least no incrs in base prices)...

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Jul 22, 2006 11:50:54 PM

forhamilton: Newbie; Loc: Corpus Christi, Texas; Posts: 33, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 18, 2006; Reply to: sdy284

Re: Car and Driver - comparison test Z06 v 997 TT v F430

Quote:
sdy284 said:
Quote:
forhamilton said:
RWD platform shines on the track. The GT2, GT3 and CGT are all RWD for a reason.

note that he said FRONT ENGINE / RWD cars blow chunks...not just RWD cars

You are correct. My only point in the response was to assert the position that RWD cars (front, mid and rear engine) perform well on the track. Quite honestly, I believe the AWD platform of the TT would be best for street light to street light racing, however I don't think this is a very good bench mark for a car.

I love the TT/Z/430 comparisons. The Z was purpose built and it shows. The TT was not built as a track car, that is saved for the GT3 (can't wait for this comparison). The 430 should be compared to the upcoming GT2 and I believe the GT2 will shine. Quite honestly if had the 200k to buy a 430, I would hope that it would rank 1st by a magazine comparing it to cars that cost a fraction of the price.

For 200k, I'd rather have a TT and a Z.

I traded my 996TT on my Z. I have been very pleased with my Z and it outperforms all but a couple of cars at the track. I could gripe about the plastic interior and some of the other minor things, but if that is what I was interested in I could have spent a couple of extra bucks after the fact and ended up with a waxer. I got a track car.

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Jul 23, 2006 12:29:55 AM

DJB: Co-Pilot; Loc: Virginia & Lucerne; Posts: 198, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 12, 2006; Reply to: forhamilton

Re: Car and Driver - comparison test Z06 v 997 TT v F430

Hey, enjoy it! That's what its for and thay's why you got it. Have fun, drive safe!

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