Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo - Page1

Jul 6, 2006 8:24:24 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59579, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002

Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

Today I just got some interesting numbers regarding the Hockenheim (Kleiner Kurs) track results (done by the same professional driver):

997 Carrera S (PASM): 1:14.7 min
997 Turbo (manual, sport chrono): 1:12.5 min
997 GT3 (Michelin Cup tires): 1:11.4 min

Same driver, back to back driving on the same day, air temperature was around 30*C.
On the 997 Carrera S and 997 Turbo, PSM was turned off, Sport Chrono was turned on.
On the 997 GT3, TC was turned off.

I can't provide more details.

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Jul 6, 2006 8:33:10 PM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

So do you think a 997 Turbo 6-speed with Cup tires would be as fast (or faster) than the GT3 time?

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Jul 6, 2006 8:37:53 PM

mp: Pilot; Loc: New York, USA; Posts: 361, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 4, 2006; Reply to: RC

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

Don't you think the GT3's Cup tires made a 1 second difference at the very least? Sounds like an impressive time for the Turbo.

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Jul 6, 2006 8:39:03 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59579, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: mp

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

Quote:
mp said:
Don't you think the GT3's Cup tires made a 1 second difference at the very least? Sounds like an impressive time for the Turbo.

It is an impressive time for the Turbo, unfortunately I wasn't able to find out if the car was equipped with LSD.

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Jul 6, 2006 8:50:27 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

RC - A while ago, you posted a time for the Z06 on that track. Do you remember what it was? Just curious - don't want to start a war...

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Jul 6, 2006 8:54:18 PM

polo: Senior; Loc: France; Posts: 539, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 26, 2006; Reply to: RC

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

It is excellent time for the turbo, it has to be faster than the GT3 with cup tires, not talking of LSD, if the tested din't had one.

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Jul 6, 2006 8:56:39 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59579, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Grant

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

Quote:
Grant said:
RC - A while ago, you posted a time for the Z06 on that track. Do you remember what it was? Just curious - don't want to start a war...

It was a 1:11.x (x=

) time, don't remember anymore. The Z06 time has been achieved by Horst v. Saurma.

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Jul 6, 2006 9:08:58 PM

crazi4speed: Newbie; Loc: Chicago, IL, USA; Posts: 39, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 5, 2006; Reply to: RC

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
Grant said:
RC - A while ago, you posted a time for the Z06 on that track. Do you remember what it was? Just curious - don't want to start a war...

It was a 1:11.x (x= ) time, don't remember anymore. The Z06 time has been achieved by Horst v. Saurma.

when you say has been achieved by Horst v. Saurma, you mean he was driving the Z06

or it took the GT3/Turbo a driver like him to get to a time marked by the Z06 wih a regular driver?

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Jul 6, 2006 9:42:51 PM

Hurst: Veteran; Loc: Potomac, MD; Posts: 1255, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2005; Reply to: crazi4speed

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

That GT3 time is very very fast.

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Jul 6, 2006 10:18:53 PM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: crazi4speed

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

Quote:
crazi4speed said:

when you say has been achieved by Horst v. Saurma, you mean he was driving the Z06

or it took the GT3/Turbo a driver like him to get to a time marked by the Z06 wih a regular driver?

You think GM would just use some guy off the street for their Hockenheim test runs?

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Jul 6, 2006 10:28:56 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

I know that 2.2s is meaningful, but it is still impressive to see the C2S JUST 2.2s slower than the new turbo.

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Jul 6, 2006 10:32:18 PM

crazi4speed: Newbie; Loc: Chicago, IL, USA; Posts: 39, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 5, 2006; Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

Quote:
Dock (Atlanta) said:
Quote:
crazi4speed said:

when you say has been achieved by Horst v. Saurma, you mean he was driving the Z06

or it took the GT3/Turbo a driver like him to get to a time marked by the Z06 wih a regular driver?

You think GM would just use some guy off the street for their Hockenheim test runs?

But I dont think they used their best driver at hand, but i am not sure, if they did, its still impressive, as quick as a GT3 and quicker than the Turbo on Runcraps, put the matching Cup tires and that time is in 1.10.xx so my point in the other thread, the Vette has not been matched by any porsche out yet but there is something else porsche offers which is missing from a vette..even though the Z06 is equally sexy looking..

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Jul 6, 2006 11:01:14 PM

polo: Senior; Loc: France; Posts: 539, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 26, 2006; Reply to: crazi4speed

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

Quote:
crazi4speed said:
Quote:
Dock (Atlanta) said:
Quote:
crazi4speed said:

when you say has been achieved by Horst v. Saurma, you mean he was driving the Z06

or it took the GT3/Turbo a driver like him to get to a time marked by the Z06 wih a regular driver?

You think GM would just use some guy off the street for their Hockenheim test runs?

But I dont think they used their best driver at hand, but i am not sure, if they did, its still impressive, as quick as a GT3 and quicker than the Turbo on Runcraps, put the matching Cup tires and that time is in 1.10.xx so my point in the other thread, the Vette has not been matched by any porsche out yet but there is something else porsche offers which is missing from a vette..even though the Z06 is equally sexy looking..

And so what? You proved no point. Did you read the thread title?

Another one coming here to tell us how great the Z06 is.

Go brag to gm.com if they still exist...

Here is something for ya click here

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Jul 6, 2006 11:18:10 PM

crazi4speed: Newbie; Loc: Chicago, IL, USA; Posts: 39, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 5, 2006; Reply to: polo

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

Y you getting a pissed off, getting pissed off is a trait of people who cant handle simple reasoning..I never said that the Z06 is the greatest, but i cant seem to figure why is porsche taking soo much $$ to make something not as quick..last i remembered porsche was about speed..wasnt it?

I want a turbo/gt3 myself, but that doesnt mean I cant show that its competition is better for now..

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Jul 6, 2006 11:36:18 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: crazi4speed

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

Crazi4speed quit being so open minded and logical.

Porsche believes there only competition is themselves.
So in that context, do not be surprised at reaction here
if pressed to answer the why is it slower question.

To be be fair, Porsche dogmatists cannot give any answer but that their engines are too small.

Look at the Cayenne Turbo S engine. With a dry sump and cams it would be perfect for a new mid engine Porsche.

One day we will see that, if Audi doesnt beat them to it
and leave Porsche behind with just small displacement motors
for their sportscars.

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Jul 6, 2006 11:36:59 PM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: crazi4speed

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

Quote:
crazi4speed said:... but i cant seem to figure why is porsche taking soo much $$ to make something not as quick..last i remembered porsche was about speed..wasnt it?

There is so much more to a car than pure performance numbers.

BTW, Porsches have seldom been faster in acceleration than the Vette.

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Jul 6, 2006 11:45:03 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

Dock thats true to a point, but slower lap times are not something Porsche has ever been known for.

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Jul 7, 2006 12:27:58 AM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Dock thats true to a point, but slower lap times are not something Porsche has ever been known for.

I really don't know that to be true. It's easy to research back through the years to see what the acceleration performance numbers between the two cars was, but I haven't seen similar head-to-head lap time data.

Here's how I see it. American muscle cars have generally been faster in acceleration than Porsches. What they were missing were brakes and proper chassis tuning. The C6Z represents the only sports car made in America that can corner, brake and accelerate with the 997 Turbo with SC. Good for GM in their achievement of these specific performance markers. What they have not accomplished in my opinion is parity with Porsche in terms of how the driving experience is delivered...weighting of the steering wheel, chassis feedback, the balance of all the driving controls relative to each other, sight lines from the driver's seat, service, looks, quality, etc. Is having all of the non-performance attributes worth the price difference between the two cars? Well it depends on the individual, but it was for me.

Also, Porsche has to be concerned about where each of their 911's fit in the lineup. It wouldn't make sense for them to make a base 997 Turbo that is faster than a GT2. Where does the 997 Turbo with power kit fit in? How about the 997 S? Could Porsche have released the 997 Turbo with 650hp and capable of sub 7:30 lap times at the Ring? Sure they could. Could GM have released the C6Z with 650hp. You bet.

People can get all wrapped up with a few seconds here or there, but I personally think that's a waste of time.

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Jul 7, 2006 12:42:55 AM

mawyatt: Co-Pilot; Loc: Florida, Clearwater; Posts: 283, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2006; Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

Dock,

I think the Dodge Viper would qualify as an American sports car in your terms. Maybe not as refined as the Corvette or Porsche 911s, but certainly a very good sports car still.

Mike

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Jul 7, 2006 1:04:51 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

Dock I understand what you are mean entirely about tactile feel and quality bits in the cockpit. And thats exactly where Porsche has jumped off a cliff quality wise for the price.

But if you dont know what they built before, you would not be dissapointed by what they do today.

This is what stinks for 100K plus today.

We get insturments that are part of a cheap to make cluster instead of individual insturments with glass and real metal bezels. At least the 997's are bigger than the 996's.

No Porsche only weighted turn stalk with precise detents but a flimsy VW souced one. The good one vanished in the late 70's.

A cheap gearshift knob with that tacky "Alu" look fake metal - born with the 996. Its the meanest cheapest gear shift nob for the money in the entire auto industry.

Auxilary switches from low bidder sourcing with no heft or substance. - more 996 baddness

Even the Key is not special or clever, but just cheap.

A lot of the special Porscheness of the cockpit is just not there anymore. From the hanging pedals to the cheap light switch, tiny ashtray, to the Audi S4 heater/AC controls, the car is just not as special as it used to be inside.

The Porsche interior design people must work for a Scotsman.
Without the European style of font and pictographs on the switches, it could be a Nissan in some ways.

And Since when did any Porsche ever need "crested" seats? or "Crested" center consoles? or Buick like color matching steering wheels? Or Fake quad exhaust pipes? All of that smacks of Datsun 240Z like crap and really just pisses me off. Those are tacky, over reaching and fake cues. Whats next? lighted door sill gaurds?

White insturment faces are so Dodge, so Pep Boys, so Shucks like.. that Porsche should be barred from importing cars until they stop using them and recall the ones already here to change them out to yes... Black!

Now ask me how I really feel?

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Jul 7, 2006 1:28:14 AM

Stealth: Junior; Loc: NY; Posts: 124, Gallery; Registered on: May 21, 2006; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

I thought the key of the 997tt was similar to the Carrera GT's...

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Jul 7, 2006 2:28:35 AM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: mawyatt

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

Quote:
mawyatt said:
Dock,

I think the Dodge Viper would qualify as an American sports car in your terms. Maybe not as refined as the Corvette or Porsche 911s, but certainly a very good sports car still.

Mike

I just don't think it would hang with the 997 Turbo

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Jul 7, 2006 2:58:39 AM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

Dock I understand what you are mean entirely about tactile feel and quality bits in the cockpit.

I'm not talking about the tactile feel or quality of any switchology in the cockpit. But here are my comments anyway...

//////////////////////////

But if you dont know what they built before, you would not be dissapointed by what they do today.

I know all about the past Porsches

We get insturments that are part of a cheap to make cluster instead of individual insturments with glass and real metal bezels.

I think my 996 Turbo's instrument cluster is well made. And it doesn't have silver bezels - they are all black just the way Porsche designed them. Plastic is just fine with me - it's lighter. A few ounces here and a few ounces there and the next thing you know you're talking real pounds.

No Porsche only weighted turn stalk with precise detents but a flimsy VW souced one. The good one vanished in the late 70's.

I think the current stalks have great detents - "light" does not mean less precise or low quality.

A cheap gearshift knob with that tacky "Alu" look fake metal - born with the 996. Its the meanest cheapest gear shift nob for the money in the entire auto industry.

I disagree. My OEM shift knob has a great shape and is very lightweight.

Auxilary switches from low bidder sourcing with no heft or substance. - more 996 baddness

Why have "heft"??

Even the Key is not special or clever, but just cheap.

The 996 key? What's the big deal, it's just a key for heavens sake...

A lot of the special Porscheness of the cockpit is just not there anymore. From the hanging pedals Who cares? to the cheap light switch Which light switch? , tiny ashtray Never use it. , to the Audi S4 heater/AC controls Something wrong with Audi stuff? , the car is just not as special as it used to be inside.

And Since when did any Porsche ever need "crested" seats? or "Crested" center consoles? Or Buick like color matching steering wheels? Or Fake quad exhaust pipes? Those are all options, right. So don't order them.

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Jul 7, 2006 3:08:55 AM

930man: Newbie; Loc: nc; Posts: 32, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 14, 2005; Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

so back to lap times....

i wonder why they didnt use cup tires on the 997tt..they are an option for the car..

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Jul 7, 2006 3:12:17 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: 930man

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

For lap times, I bet the TT and the Gallardo are two cars car that could actually do decent times on....Winter Tires.

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Jul 7, 2006 4:19:34 AM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

Jim, sounds like you need to get yourself an Aston. After shopping DB9's and Vantages, everything else looks cheap on the inside. Even the Bentley with the Touareg instrument cluster and steering wheel.

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Jul 7, 2006 5:13:47 AM

AUM: Veteran; Loc: Germany; Posts: 1203, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2006; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
For lap times, I bet the TT and the Gallardo are two cars car that could actually do decent times on....Winter Tires.

Yes the Turbo does okay lap times on winter tyres in December at the Ring in -2c and icy rain.

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Jul 7, 2006 10:13:48 AM

andrea: Rennteam Master; Loc: Italy, Pordenone , Italy; Posts: 3569, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 24, 2003; Reply to: AUM

Re: Hockenheim Track Time - 997 Turbo

GT3 rules....

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