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Jul 2, 2006 8:59:54 PM
- U Boat Commander
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Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline
Quote:
nberry said:
I believe the the break in period is over rated and more of a prayer.
Nick: I wouldn't be so sure. After around 6K miles I noticed that my 997S opened up significantly. It's at least 20% louder and 10% faster, in my subjective opinion. Frankly, it suprises me how much the car improved and I already thought it was great.
Jul 2, 2006 9:10:39 PM
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nberry
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Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline
Quote:
U Boat Commander said:Quote:
nberry said:
I believe the the break in period is over rated and more of a prayer.
Nick: I wouldn't be so sure. After around 6K miles I noticed that my 997S opened up significantly. It's at least 20% louder and 10% faster, in my subjective opinion. Frankly, it suprises me how much the car improved and I already thought it was great.
I suspect it would be slightly faster but not much. Most high performance engines have spent a few hours running prior to being installed. I know Ferrari engines have a lot of run time before going into the car. However, with Porsche that may not be the case given their penchant for mass production.
Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Obviously Porsche builds the car for their audience. Its also obvious its slower as a sports car when used as a sports car on a track than a Corvette is.
After the day today, journalists can write any crap they want but the 997 Turbo is fast as hell. Especially in twists and turns. Not to forget one point I always had and I repeat myself again: in the hands of a PRO, the Z06 may be frigging fast, even as fast as a 997 Turbo (they're still reviews, where the Z06 is a tiny tick slowlier but anyway, so be it). But take the average "Joe" driver of a Z06 and the same average "Joe" driver of a 997 Turbo and I promise to you, the 997 Turbo will be faster, simply because it's handling is more refined (easier to drive if you like...
).So are we all pros? Apparently.
I consider myself a slightly above average high power sportscar driver and so are the guys who joined us today. And I highly doubt that one of them would have been faster in a Z06, sorry.Regarding our driving today: Walter Röhrl would have been proud of us.
Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Look at the AutoBild track times. The Vette is quicker per lap.
Obviously Porsche builds the car for their audience. Its also obvious its slower as a sports car when used as a sports car on a track than a Corvette is.
The 997T is a lot heavier,less powerful and didn't had runflats(yes,runflats are faster than normal tires on a dry track).So,I don't think that the Z06's lap time was that impressive.
Admit it
Quote:
Alan(NJ) said:
well stated by someone who doesn't own or hasn't driven a 997tt - the turbo's torque is wonderfully useful on US roads
Exactly. I feel that many are just talking themselves out of it fighting the urge.
If folks truly don't think much of the 997 Turbo, why bother visiting the 997 Turbo forum!
Heck I don't care much for the Z06, F430, 997S, would I bother wasting time preaching to those owners?
Re: Admit it
Quote:
W211 said:Quote:
Alan(NJ) said:
well stated by someone who doesn't own or hasn't driven a 997tt - the turbo's torque is wonderfully useful on US roads
Exactly. I feel that many are just talking themselves out of it fighting the urge.
If folks truly don't think much of the 997 Turbo, why bother visiting the 997 Turbo forum!
Heck I don't care much for the Z06, F430, 997S, would I bother wasting time preaching to those owners?
Nck has a lot of time in his hands, that's why... AND little time to drive his F430. He is limited to just a few miles a year and never fast miles... God forbid the car is used, or it will lose its value. These F-car owners are frustrated adolescents who crave performance, but prefer showing-off instead, driving their could-be sports cars at boulevard speeds just to be seen. By spending his time in P-car forums (other than his Cayenne's forum) fits well a psychological profile of a frustrated car nut. Do not pay attention to him!
Jul 2, 2006 9:47:56 PM
- ADias
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Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline
Quote:
U Boat Commander said:Quote:
nberry said:
I believe the the break in period is over rated and more of a prayer.
Nick: I wouldn't be so sure. After around 6K miles I noticed that my 997S opened up significantly. It's at least 20% louder and 10% faster, in my subjective opinion. Frankly, it suprises me how much the car improved and I already thought it was great.
Porsche boxer engines are known to improve steadily past 100,000 miles. But what does Nick know about it?
Oh... and Nick knows even less about his F-430 characteristics, because let's recall, he cannot drive it much, or it will lose its almighty value.
Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline
Quote:
RC said:Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Obviously Porsche builds the car for their audience. Its also obvious its slower as a sports car when used as a sports car on a track than a Corvette is.
After the day today, journalists can write any crap they want but the 997 Turbo is fast as hell. Especially in twists and turns. Not to forget one point I always had and I repeat myself again: in the hands of a PRO, the Z06 may be frigging fast, even as fast as a 997 Turbo (they're still reviews, where the Z06 is a tiny tick slowlier but anyway, so be it). But take the average "Joe" driver of a Z06 and the same average "Joe" driver of a 997 Turbo and I promise to you, the 997 Turbo will be faster, simply because it's handling is more refined (easier to drive if you like...
So are we all pros? Apparently.
Regarding our driving today: Walter Röhrl would have been proud of us.
Take the average Joe driver put him into a Z06 and say go fast and he will perhaps go fast to his grave. Period.
I agree with you about the TT being the "friendlier" car.
But what if "Joe" gets frisky with the sport chrono and
PASM switch's? Then the party for the inexperienced may be over.
There are so many things that Porsche does perfect and so many things that Corvette barely gets right. Both do 'fast' well but in different ways.For the talented driver, the TT tip sounds more exploitable for exstreme use.
Please dont think I doubt your driving skill. Anyone with 80's rallye car experience and years (!old guy soon
) of over 240kph AB driving time is not alive by chance or luck, but by skill. 
So yes, your opinions and observations are valuable.
Re: Admit it
Quote:
ADias said:Quote:
W211 said:Quote:
Alan(NJ) said:
well stated by someone who doesn't own or hasn't driven a 997tt - the turbo's torque is wonderfully useful on US roads
Exactly. I feel that many are just talking themselves out of it fighting the urge.
If folks truly don't think much of the 997 Turbo, why bother visiting the 997 Turbo forum!
Heck I don't care much for the Z06, F430, 997S, would I bother wasting time preaching to those owners?
Nck has a lot of time in his hands, that's why... AND little time to drive his F430. He is limited to just a few miles a year and never fast miles... God forbid the car is used, or it will lose its value. These F-car owners are frustrated adolescents who crave performance, but prefer showing-off instead, driving their could-be sports cars at boulevard speeds just to be seen. By spending his time in P-car forums (other than his Cayenne's forum) fits well a psychological profile of a frustrated car nut. Do not pay attention to him!
My 430 has over 4200 glorious miles since Dec 2005. I suspect that is more than some Porsche owners put on their clock.
As far as my driving ability, I will repeat as I have said so often, I never discuss it other than to say they are mediocre. However, I have had my share of training (as a matter of fact I was in the first Porsche Driving Experience school) and driving track experiences. In equal cars, not too many will run away from me.
I always make time for Porsche because it is a study in GLUTTONY .
Finally, the Turbo is no doubt a very fast car. However, I wonder whether the US bound turbo's are slower (stricter emissions?) since the Z06 here in the US walked away from the 997TT.
Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline
Take a hard look at the Z06. I don't care how fast it is...sorry, but it's built very cheaply. Besides it not realistic comparison. The Z is built for cheap speed, nothing more. Every creature comfort is secondary. Christ, I had a 2000cc, highly tuned Harley (ported heads, high-lift cam-yes one, big carb and a lot of cubes) that smoked most rice burners in any roll on contest. It didn't make it a better bike.
And, it's not like the (us) Americans haven't done it before. The Viper is just as fast, has been for years. it just has much taller gears. (and is just as cheap) Swap the gears and...presto.
Z06: cheap orange peel paint, cheap skimpy leather, Chevy Chevette style interior, loud and unrefined. Who cares, except Nick, who wants to stir things up.
Anyway, Nick, if the Z beats the tt like reported, what do you think that that does to your 430. Can we say third place. Does that make your F car that much less of an achievement. Oh no it doesn't because your car SOUNDS fast.
And, it's not like the (us) Americans haven't done it before. The Viper is just as fast, has been for years. it just has much taller gears. (and is just as cheap) Swap the gears and...presto.
Z06: cheap orange peel paint, cheap skimpy leather, Chevy Chevette style interior, loud and unrefined. Who cares, except Nick, who wants to stir things up.
Anyway, Nick, if the Z beats the tt like reported, what do you think that that does to your 430. Can we say third place. Does that make your F car that much less of an achievement. Oh no it doesn't because your car SOUNDS fast.
Re: Admit it
Quote:
nberry said: ... My 430 has over 4200 glorious miles since Dec 2005. I suspect that is more than some Porsche owners put on their clock....
Ah Nick! you are hitting the 5,000 mile limit beyond which the F-car "resale value" starts to plummet. Watch out, time to make it a garage queen.
Re: Admit it
Quote:
ADias said:Quote:
nberry said: ... My 430 has over 4200 glorious miles since Dec 2005. I suspect that is more than some Porsche owners put on their clock....
Ah Nick! you are hitting the 5,000 mile limit beyond which the F-car "resale value" starts to plummet. Watch out, time to make it a garage queen.
Jul 3, 2006 12:17:35 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline
Nick, so the 997TT is not a good poseur car, its a performer which is easy to drive fast, does not forgo any safety features, and is more practical and versatile than any other.
You are just irritated because the Turbo's performance shadows the attraction of the F430, which is at the back of the pack behind the TT, Gallardo, Z06, etc...
Live and let live Nick, get over it. The TT is not a poseur car, and doesn't need to be flashy, have bells and whistles, or be limited for only a handful of people who just want it because other don't... the 997TT its the uber-performer in all situations, the is nothing like it, and their prospective owners are very grateful for that.
You are just irritated because the Turbo's performance shadows the attraction of the F430, which is at the back of the pack behind the TT, Gallardo, Z06, etc...
Live and let live Nick, get over it. The TT is not a poseur car, and doesn't need to be flashy, have bells and whistles, or be limited for only a handful of people who just want it because other don't... the 997TT its the uber-performer in all situations, the is nothing like it, and their prospective owners are very grateful for that.
Jul 3, 2006 2:19:02 PM
- W211
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Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
Nick, so the 997TT is not a good poseur car, its a performer which is easy to drive fast, does not forgo any safety features, and is more practical and versatile than any other.
You are just irritated because the Turbo's performance shadows the attraction of the F430, which is at the back of the pack behind the TT, Gallardo, Z06, etc...
Live and let live Nick, get over it. The TT is not a poseur car, and doesn't need to be flashy, have bells and whistles, or be limited for only a handful of people who just want it because other don't... the 997TT its the uber-performer in all situations, the is nothing like it, and their prospective owners are very grateful for that.
Very well said.
Jul 3, 2006 2:22:37 PM
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nberry
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Carlos from Spain
Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline
Sorry, to drive a high performance sport car on a daily basis is the quintessential act of a posuer.
Not that it matters to Ferrari owners, as far as performance betweeeen the 430 & 997TT is concerned, it all depends on who is running the test. Please understand that only redeeming quality of the 997TT is to provide some level of competent performance to make up for its lack of excitement, its ordinary look alike look and the financial bath owners will take once the car is delivered.
Not that it matters to Ferrari owners, as far as performance betweeeen the 430 & 997TT is concerned, it all depends on who is running the test. Please understand that only redeeming quality of the 997TT is to provide some level of competent performance to make up for its lack of excitement, its ordinary look alike look and the financial bath owners will take once the car is delivered.
Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline
Quote:
nberry said:
Sorry, to drive a high performance sport car on a daily basis is the quintessential act of a posuer.
Not that it matters to Ferrari owners, as far as performance betweeeen the 430 & 997TT is concerned, it all depends on who is running the test. Please understand that only redeeming quality of the 997TT is to provide some level of competent performance to make up for its lack of excitement, its ordinary look alike look and the financial bath owners will take once the car is delivered.
Nick, I disagree with your evaluation. I find the Turbo styling highly attractive and have found it to be such since its introduction. In my opinion looks are subjective and except for the US, where most opinions are skewed because of Ferrari's excellent resale, most people around the world are fairly split between the looks of both cars. I myself prefer the 997TT look, although the 430 is also rather attractive. You should accept that people have different tastes and you should also ask yourself how Porsche is able to move 5000+ Turbos per year, if the car is so unattractive.
Regarding poseurs, driving the car daily, that statement has so many things wrong with it, that it isn't even funny. I don't need to commute to work, but many acquaintances use their cars every morning the way they are meant to be used, same thing on the way home. I'd do the same if I drove to work.
Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline
Crash is right on. The 997TT looks great to me. Porsche could easily limit the 997TT production to a few K/year and charge $100K more to put it "in-line with the 430" here in the states, but I'm glad they haven't. BTW the best "looking" car of all time IMO is the orginal 911 Turbo (930). "Wicked" is the only thing that comes to mind when I see a 930, look at the new poster from Porsche on the evolution of the 911 Turbo.
Mike
Mike
Re: Admit it
Common Nick, all of your negativity is becomming too much to handle!
You should be spending more time on the Ferrari Forum or driving your terrific F430, rather than breaking our chops here. Everyone is entitled to his or her perferences.
The new TT's sales figures will speak for themselves.
In regards to which car is faster, at this level (z06, Gallardo, F430, GT, etc) they appear to be very close in performance. After reading many comparisons, each is flawed in some way or another - driver bias, track bias, different tires, ceramic brakes, etc. Acceleration tests are also flawed. Some cars are better from a standing start (TT, Gallardo), while others are stronger from rolling speeds. IMO most street racing occurs on the highway from 60mph to 120mph in the US (most likely to 250kmh in Europe). Based on what has been written (& RC), the TT Tip will be hard to beat from a standing start or from a rolling start - if that is what is most important to you.
You should be spending more time on the Ferrari Forum or driving your terrific F430, rather than breaking our chops here. Everyone is entitled to his or her perferences.
The new TT's sales figures will speak for themselves.
In regards to which car is faster, at this level (z06, Gallardo, F430, GT, etc) they appear to be very close in performance. After reading many comparisons, each is flawed in some way or another - driver bias, track bias, different tires, ceramic brakes, etc. Acceleration tests are also flawed. Some cars are better from a standing start (TT, Gallardo), while others are stronger from rolling speeds. IMO most street racing occurs on the highway from 60mph to 120mph in the US (most likely to 250kmh in Europe). Based on what has been written (& RC), the TT Tip will be hard to beat from a standing start or from a rolling start - if that is what is most important to you.
Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline
I have no doubt the 997TT will out sell the 430.
In all seriousness, the 997TT is a terrific car but I believe the 997S looks better. Additionally I have difficulty understanding how a Turbo daily driver can deliver more spirited driver than the S. If anything the S would be more fun given it is not a AWD car.
What the Turbo represents to me is the owner is telling the world his appendage is bigger than other Porsche's at least until the GT2 comes out.
I also agree that the 430 and tt are totally two different cars each with their own merits. I can afford to buy a TT but cannot rationalize paying $150,000 for it because of the reasons stated above.
In all seriousness, the 997TT is a terrific car but I believe the 997S looks better. Additionally I have difficulty understanding how a Turbo daily driver can deliver more spirited driver than the S. If anything the S would be more fun given it is not a AWD car.
What the Turbo represents to me is the owner is telling the world his appendage is bigger than other Porsche's at least until the GT2 comes out.
I also agree that the 430 and tt are totally two different cars each with their own merits. I can afford to buy a TT but cannot rationalize paying $150,000 for it because of the reasons stated above.
Jul 3, 2006 4:32:22 PM
- SoCal Alan
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Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline
Quote:
nberry said:
What the Turbo represents to me is the owner is telling the world his appendage is bigger than other Porsche's at least until the GT2 comes out.
And you're telling me that one of the reasons for your purchase of the F430 was not because you're making up for some appendage shortfall?
Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline
Quote:
nberry said:
I have no doubt the 997TT will out sell the 430.
In all seriousness, the 997TT is a terrific car but I believe the 997S looks better. Additionally I have difficulty understanding how a Turbo daily driver can deliver more spirited driver than the S. If anything the S would be more fun given it is not a AWD car.
What the Turbo represents to me is the owner is telling the world his appendage is bigger than other Porsche's at least until the GT2 comes out.
I also agree that the 430 and tt are totally two different cars each with their own merits. I can afford to buy a TT but cannot rationalize paying $150,000 for it because of the reasons stated above.
Yes, different tastes. I personally love the Turbo. It just seems to be very aggressive, while not looking like a japanese kit car. I understand your sentiments regarding RWD/AWD, but you also gotta understand that most of us live in temperate climates and AWD is a huge bonus here, not to mention the fact that it's easier to drive fast (which, unless on a track, is important). Nevertheless, the 430 is one hell of a car and I'm glad you're satisfied with your choice.
Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline
I don't know why anyone is suprised the Z was faster. The TT weighs 500Lbs more and has quite a bit less hp. The Z06s have all been dynoing at 530hp+. I have one myself and mine dynoed at 530hp taking into consideration a very conservative 13% drivetrain loss. It's been said and is worth saying again. The Z is for cheap speed. And it does it very well. It really is a no brainer to drive from 30mph and up. Just floor it, shift gears and it rips thru speed like nothing else.
I sat in a 997TT the other day adn it was exquisite in every detail. The car is extremely well thought out and put together. But you have to pay for that. And if you want to pay even more for even more drool factor and a kick ass exhaust note. The F430 awaits.
They're all great cars. They're all very close in performance and they all are very well thought out, put together and engineered for their purpose. The Z is a bare bones rocket that sacrifices a few things in the pursuit of performance/$. The 430 is on the opposite end that sacrifices virtually nothing for looks, peformance and details. The TT's in the middle. It's a great time to be a car guy.
I sat in a 997TT the other day adn it was exquisite in every detail. The car is extremely well thought out and put together. But you have to pay for that. And if you want to pay even more for even more drool factor and a kick ass exhaust note. The F430 awaits.
They're all great cars. They're all very close in performance and they all are very well thought out, put together and engineered for their purpose. The Z is a bare bones rocket that sacrifices a few things in the pursuit of performance/$. The 430 is on the opposite end that sacrifices virtually nothing for looks, peformance and details. The TT's in the middle. It's a great time to be a car guy.
Jul 3, 2006 10:29:55 PM
- Dock (Atlanta)
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Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Its a bizarre comparison as one car is 2 seat 2wd and the other is a nearly double the price awd 2+2.
The TT is the most profitable car that Porsche makes. Its ironic that Porsche needs to deploy so much technology to come close to a rear wheel drive Chevrolet in straight line
accelleration. And if you look at the Auto Bild comparison test the Porsche loses to the Vette on the track.
Ok, so the TT is the best 997 yet. But its not the sports car best car yet.
Jim, do you really think it would have been a problem for Porsche to put 600 HP into the 997 Turbo from the start? No problem at all, prototypes were running with this kind of power all the time. But Porsche is one of the most profitable car makers worldwide and we know why: they keep the "good stuff" for later. Unfortunately.
It is all about money: the 997 Turbo, then the powerkit comes, then the 997 GT2, then the 997 Turbo S and so on. Porsche can't afford to put a 600 HP 997 Turbo on the market and sell the same model for the next couple of years, this wouldn't work.
Of course I would have loved to see a 997 Turbo with at least 540 HP or so, this would have been just right in my opinion. 580 HP for the powerkit and even 600 HP for the 997 GT2. But what comes after that?
And what really annoys me is actually the whole money discussion. To be honest, I don't care too much that I spent more money for the 997 Turbo than I would have spent for a Z06 for example. Simply because the Z06 is no car for me for various reasons. I don't even care too much that it delivers practically the same performance as the 997 Turbo, top speed being even higher. It is more interesting to understand why Z06 OWNERS actually care that much about this? Are they really happy with their decision? If yes, they should be driving their cars and not come to Porsche forums and tell us how great they are. This is something I still need to understand from a psychological point of view.
Re: C6Z vs. 997TT post from 6speeonline
Quote:
355Spider said:
I don't know why anyone is suprised the Z was faster. The TT weighs 500Lbs more and has quite a bit less hp. The Z06s have all been dynoing at 530hp+. I have one myself and mine dynoed at 530hp taking into consideration a very conservative 13% drivetrain loss. It's been said and is worth saying again. The Z is for cheap speed. And it does it very well. It really is a no brainer to drive from 30mph and up. Just floor it, shift gears and it rips thru speed like nothing else.
I sat in a 997TT the other day adn it was exquisite in every detail. The car is extremely well thought out and put together. But you have to pay for that. And if you want to pay even more for even more drool factor and a kick ass exhaust note. The F430 awaits.
They're all great cars. They're all very close in performance and they all are very well thought out, put together and engineered for their purpose. The Z is a bare bones rocket that sacrifices a few things in the pursuit of performance/$. The 430 is on the opposite end that sacrifices virtually nothing for looks, peformance and details. The TT's in the middle. It's a great time to be a car guy.
Terrific post! Sometime we tend to forget we are very fortunate to sit here and argue with personal experience about these great cars. Your post really nailed the respective positions.
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