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Re: 997 Turbo Auto Bild comparison test
Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
RC said:Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
RC said:Quote:
MKSGR said:
What did you not like about the Tip? Delayed down-shifts, I guess?
Tip is as fast as manual in manual mode now. There are no delayed down-shifts. In manual mode.
Really
Instant down-shifts like in case of a DSG/F1 gear box?
As fast as manual.
That is: you still "feel" a substantial delay. However, if measured in fractions of a second the delay is not any longer than in case of a professional down-shift in a manual car.
Right
You won't find him answering too many questions today. It's TURBO time
Maybe he is doing some tests to answer our questions
Jun 30, 2006 3:13:00 PM
- Singularity
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Jun 30, 2006 3:13:52 PM
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Jun 30, 2006 3:14:53 PM
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Jun 30, 2006 3:16:01 PM
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Jun 30, 2006 3:17:18 PM
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Jun 30, 2006 3:56:55 PM
- KresoF1
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Reply to:
Ron (Houston)
Re: 997 Turbo Auto Bild comparison test
Just watching Argentina-Germany game...
997 Turbo is the fastest in acceleration but, prone to oversteer with PSM off. Very good handling and excellent brakes but, Gallardo has better traction in Auto Bild opinion! F430-excellent handling and awsome soundtrack but, not as fast as Turbo. Z06-very good value for money, not the best build quality, very good on road and track. Gallardo-best traction, fastest on track, unique V10 engine.
Resume-997 turbo is very fast indeed but, its "very live" rear end is not for beginners! On the race track Gallardo was the clear winner, also most confident to drive fast...
F430 is most impressive one to drive in "wow" factor. Z06 is biggest bang for the buck.
By points Porsche was the clear winner.
997 Turbo is the fastest in acceleration but, prone to oversteer with PSM off. Very good handling and excellent brakes but, Gallardo has better traction in Auto Bild opinion! F430-excellent handling and awsome soundtrack but, not as fast as Turbo. Z06-very good value for money, not the best build quality, very good on road and track. Gallardo-best traction, fastest on track, unique V10 engine.
Resume-997 turbo is very fast indeed but, its "very live" rear end is not for beginners! On the race track Gallardo was the clear winner, also most confident to drive fast...
F430 is most impressive one to drive in "wow" factor. Z06 is biggest bang for the buck.
By points Porsche was the clear winner.
Re: 997 Turbo Auto Bild comparison test
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
997 turbo is very fast indeed but, its "very live" rear end is not for beginners
And I remember somebody laughing at me when I said this in an earlier post. Not you, somebody else.
The Gallardo was always a unique product, I always liked the "baby Lambo", this is no secret. But I still think the Turbo is the better daily driver and although it has a certain WOW factor, it isn't "screaming" here I am like the Gallardo, not to talk about the F430.
Re: 997 Turbo Auto Bild comparison test
The Porsche TT lap times shown are very dissapointing. 
Sorry for the rays of sunshine here
With all of its everything - awd, electronics,VTG etc.. It is slower on a track than the relatively primitive and half the price Z06. And The Z06 was doing its laps on runflat tires that have inferior stickiness compared to the latest
N rated Michelins and is still beating the vaunted Porsche TT.
Porsche technology in their "Masterpiece" ??
Really? Where?
Snap oversteers sooner than the last TT?
Laps slower than a primitive Corvette? Less felt traction than a older Gallardo?
Warning Porsche engineers at work!
Dont get too drunk on the new TT now, because us after the newness wears off you might be throwing up in the morning.
And if the TT is faster on a track than the new GT3, like some "hints" have hinted, then Porsche better wake up and return to the drawing board, hint hint!
Face it. Its a lot of power in a very short wheelbase. Keep adding bigger tires and wheels, and then bigger brakes to stop them, and the more weight from more power neeeded.. but you have a wheelbase that is too short for its own good. Hence, the difference in tail dancing between it and the 997 and the old 996TT.
All of RC's cautions so far can be attributed to the TT's wheelbase, the bulky weight, the VTGs thrust and their
combined impact on vehicle dynamics.
I hope this is the last TT built on such a short wheelbase.
Porsche seems to have taken it as far as it can go and still it is only barely marketable to the public as a consumer street car.
And the public will likely get confused with wich "special button" to press and when. Kabanng!
By making the car easier and friendlier to drive at lower speeds with electronics, they have invited many fools to buy one who will perish from the push of a wrong button at the wrong time when trying to impress themselves and their friends. Push button, see your maker.
Masterpiece? No. Life extension for a elderly car? Yes.
Respect it or it might kill you. Value your life? Get a Gallardo instead.
Sorry for the rays of sunshine here
With all of its everything - awd, electronics,VTG etc.. It is slower on a track than the relatively primitive and half the price Z06. And The Z06 was doing its laps on runflat tires that have inferior stickiness compared to the latest
N rated Michelins and is still beating the vaunted Porsche TT.
Porsche technology in their "Masterpiece" ??
Really? Where?
Snap oversteers sooner than the last TT?
Laps slower than a primitive Corvette? Less felt traction than a older Gallardo?
Warning Porsche engineers at work!
Dont get too drunk on the new TT now, because us after the newness wears off you might be throwing up in the morning.
And if the TT is faster on a track than the new GT3, like some "hints" have hinted, then Porsche better wake up and return to the drawing board, hint hint!
Face it. Its a lot of power in a very short wheelbase. Keep adding bigger tires and wheels, and then bigger brakes to stop them, and the more weight from more power neeeded.. but you have a wheelbase that is too short for its own good. Hence, the difference in tail dancing between it and the 997 and the old 996TT.
All of RC's cautions so far can be attributed to the TT's wheelbase, the bulky weight, the VTGs thrust and their
combined impact on vehicle dynamics.
I hope this is the last TT built on such a short wheelbase.
Porsche seems to have taken it as far as it can go and still it is only barely marketable to the public as a consumer street car.
And the public will likely get confused with wich "special button" to press and when. Kabanng!
By making the car easier and friendlier to drive at lower speeds with electronics, they have invited many fools to buy one who will perish from the push of a wrong button at the wrong time when trying to impress themselves and their friends. Push button, see your maker.
Masterpiece? No. Life extension for a elderly car? Yes.
Respect it or it might kill you. Value your life? Get a Gallardo instead.
Re: 997 Turbo Auto Bild comparison test
Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
All of those yellow cars look like they drove in Elton Johns wedding parade.
Strange, I'd have thought that Elton John would have borrowed the Queen's royal carriage instead of using a car.
Its known that Elton is a bigger Queen than the Queeen of England, so her meager carriage would not suffice for his ceremony.
Ask AutoBild what Prada car lot they got those cars
from
Re: 997 Turbo Auto Bild comparison test
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Porsche technology in their "Masterpiece" ??
Really? Where?
Snap oversteers sooner than the last TT?
Face it. Its a lot of power in a very short wheelbase. Keep adding bigger tires and wheels, and then bigger brakes to stop them, and the more weight from more power neeeded.. but you have a wheelbase that is too short for its own good. Hence, the difference in tail dancing between it and the 997 and the old 996TT.
All of RC's cautions so far can be attributed to the TT's wheelbase, the bulky weight, the VTGs thrust and their
combined impact on vehicle dynamics.
But Jim, whoever said a 911Turbo should be easy to drive?
Plus with PSM off, isn't the 997TT functionally RWD? And I think all the "talk" of the 911 and 911Turbo being at the "end of the line" due to engineering constraints of the boxer six engine and the supposed limitations of the rear-engine setup (supposedly counteracted only by the driving enthusiast's natural enemy named Marketing) is wishful thinking from mid-engined V8 F430 wannabe's.
For starters, the 911 and 911turbo could lose at least five hundred pounds in two ways: By using lightweight materials (like the CF monococque chassis of the CGT) AND by getting smaller. I just received from PCNA in the mail my copy of the 911Turbo Masterwerk brochure and I noticed when they lined up all the 911Turbo's from gen. 1 to 6 how the car has ballooned.
No doubt this parallels the growth in girth of the rank-and-file Porschephile (I'm guessing my 5'10', 145 lb. frame is an aberration amongst 911 buyers). 
Plus there's more HP to be had, at least from the Turbo-PAG could reinforce the engine down to the crank, keep it at 3.6L, spend more R&D on the turbo's and push the boost to get reliable torque over 850Nm and peak HP to 600. And if the VTG doesn't work as well as planned, PAG could always review the 959's parallel/serial heterogeneous TT setup. And redesign the 998 on the 993 shape and wheelbase.
But I sort of HOPE the 997TT gets a widowmaker-esque rep. That's half the fun of driving it.
Re: 997 Turbo Auto Bild comparison test
Al, I understand what you mean completely.
Think of what comes after this generation of 997TT GT2 and 997TT. There are only so many electronic bandaids left to mask the handling physics of the car for the unskilled.
When and If Porsche moves on to a 600hp plus street car they will need one with a longer wheelbase to get decent safety margins of handling for the intalented people
who will buy them.(Most Rennteamers excluded)
A crash diet would be good, but then you cross into
sacrificing refinement for performance. And so much HP in such a short wheelbase car is not a recipe for forgiveness
of driver error.
I hate to say this, but I think there will be law suits in the US about the TT. The Sport Chrono on and PSM off features might be lawsuits waiting to happen, unless they make the user agree to it via the PCM interface. I think thats why on the M6 and M5 you have to go through 5 screens just to get FULL engine power.
Think of what comes after this generation of 997TT GT2 and 997TT. There are only so many electronic bandaids left to mask the handling physics of the car for the unskilled.
When and If Porsche moves on to a 600hp plus street car they will need one with a longer wheelbase to get decent safety margins of handling for the intalented people
who will buy them.(Most Rennteamers excluded
)A crash diet would be good, but then you cross into
sacrificing refinement for performance. And so much HP in such a short wheelbase car is not a recipe for forgiveness
of driver error.
I hate to say this, but I think there will be law suits in the US about the TT. The Sport Chrono on and PSM off features might be lawsuits waiting to happen, unless they make the user agree to it via the PCM interface. I think thats why on the M6 and M5 you have to go through 5 screens just to get FULL engine power.
Re: 997 Turbo Auto Bild comparison test
Jim,
You are likely soberingly correct in a practical sense.
No doubt, a good chunk of the 911/911Turbo market demographic would shy away from the cars if they had the noise from inside my Noble M400. To start with, the M400 has less sound insulation than the walls of a Holiday Inn that charges hourly rates, plus, I put in the M400 a lightweight flywheel, 100-cell cat. exhaust with no muffling, and a tranny cooling system, whose combined dB levels render the stock Sony stereo/CD useless, I can hear every pebble that dings off the wheel wells, and yet I love every minute of it. When I jump back in my 996TTS, for the first minute I feel like I'm driving a Bentley Arnage-that is, until the engine warms and the turbo boost hits 1.2BAR.
And you are probably correct about the weight loss, as well. Heck, at least here in the US, most drivers prefer the detached-from-the-road driver position of the SUV, in which binoculars are required to see the car you're trailing. Alas, a 911Turbo that weighs about 1,000 pounds more than the original (I believe the 1975 911 typ930 weighed less than 2,700 pounds) is just what the market demands, so there is no mystery here and, and there is-I surmise-no turning back....
You are likely soberingly correct in a practical sense.
No doubt, a good chunk of the 911/911Turbo market demographic would shy away from the cars if they had the noise from inside my Noble M400. To start with, the M400 has less sound insulation than the walls of a Holiday Inn that charges hourly rates, plus, I put in the M400 a lightweight flywheel, 100-cell cat. exhaust with no muffling, and a tranny cooling system, whose combined dB levels render the stock Sony stereo/CD useless, I can hear every pebble that dings off the wheel wells, and yet I love every minute of it. When I jump back in my 996TTS, for the first minute I feel like I'm driving a Bentley Arnage-that is, until the engine warms and the turbo boost hits 1.2BAR.
And you are probably correct about the weight loss, as well. Heck, at least here in the US, most drivers prefer the detached-from-the-road driver position of the SUV, in which binoculars are required to see the car you're trailing. Alas, a 911Turbo that weighs about 1,000 pounds more than the original (I believe the 1975 911 typ930 weighed less than 2,700 pounds) is just what the market demands, so there is no mystery here and, and there is-I surmise-no turning back....
Re: 997 Turbo Auto Bild comparison test
Al, I have one friend who owns a Porsche dealership and another who was a GM and President of Porsche stores for 30 years. They are amazed about what unskilled whining softies the typical Porsche buyer is in todays market. Blame it on Porsche for making the cars easier to drive for the average upscale and inexperienced consumer if you wish.
Sadly you and I are minority anachronisms in the US Porsche market. While we desire raw performance, most customers compare price to creature comforts and interior refinements and hienously slow 70mph cruise noise levels with 0-60 mph magazine test times.
Sadly, few if any of the newer cars sold will ever see the right side of their speedometers for more than a few seconds at a time or feel their suspensions settling into a 100mph plus corner.
Those ignorant that dare to press two special buttons in a fit of macho pique may become smear marks on a freeway gaurd rail from lack of knowldege and hi speed driving experience.
I have no fix for this marketing and performance conundrum.
Sadly you and I are minority anachronisms in the US Porsche market. While we desire raw performance, most customers compare price to creature comforts and interior refinements and hienously slow 70mph cruise noise levels with 0-60 mph magazine test times.
Sadly, few if any of the newer cars sold will ever see the right side of their speedometers for more than a few seconds at a time or feel their suspensions settling into a 100mph plus corner.
Those ignorant that dare to press two special buttons in a fit of macho pique may become smear marks on a freeway gaurd rail from lack of knowldege and hi speed driving experience.
I have no fix for this marketing and performance conundrum.
Re: 997 Turbo Auto Bild comparison test
Those ignorant that dare to press two special buttons in a fit of macho pique may become smear marks on a freeway gaurd rail from lack of knowldege and hi speed driving experience
Your talking about real people with families, dying in horrific car crashes...God forbid this ever happen to you or any other rennteamer but accidents do happen and as skilled a driver as you may believe yourself to be, you are mortal, don't forget that. And maybe show a little more class when talking about this subject than simply refering to people as "smear marks"
Your talking about real people with families, dying in horrific car crashes...God forbid this ever happen to you or any other rennteamer but accidents do happen and as skilled a driver as you may believe yourself to be, you are mortal, don't forget that. And maybe show a little more class when talking about this subject than simply refering to people as "smear marks"
Re: 997 Turbo Auto Bild comparison test
Trip I have seen and DEALT with the immediate results of of 4 people hitting a Telephone pole head on AT 70mph and numerous more. I call it as I see it.
After you have seen Humans with noses gone and their brains oozing out from where their noses were, come back and talk then.
I will spare you the other injuries I have seen and dealt with that were not from the the civilian world.
After you have seen Humans with noses gone and their brains oozing out from where their noses were, come back and talk then.
I will spare you the other injuries I have seen and dealt with that were not from the the civilian world.
Re: 997 Turbo Auto Bild comparison test
Jim what the hell are you talking about. I am sorry you had to deal with those things but why does that give you the right to be so calous? People dying is not something to take lightly no matter how many times it happens or how many times you witness it. If you ever talked to the families of those victims you didn't describe their loved one as a smear on a guard rail or any of the other graphic descriptions you gave. Have a little compasion. I also love this little gem "come back and talk then" like I need your permision to have an opinion on the matter. I felt your post was out of line and wrong so I spoke my mind, deal with it. 
Re: 997 Turbo Auto Bild comparison test
Quote:
trip said:
Those ignorant that dare to press two special buttons in a fit of macho pique may become smear marks on a freeway gaurd rail from lack of knowldege and hi speed driving experience
Your talking about real people with families, dying in horrific car crashes...God forbid this ever happen to you or any other rennteamer but accidents do happen and as skilled a driver as you may believe yourself to be, you are mortal, don't forget that. And maybe show a little more class when talking about this subject than simply refering to people as "smear marks"
Lighten up, buddy! I see nothing offensive about the term "smear marks", because that is EXACTLY what will happen to them in a high speed crash. Their bodies will literally disintegrate, with blood spatter everywhere. I've seen much slower crashes, with the guy having the A-pillar rammed straight through his forehead and out the back. This happens, whether you like it or not and let me tell you, I'd rather deal with smear marks than pick up some guy's pieces all over the highway. It's reality, so deal with it. You don't like it? Fine, it's your right. But don't attack Jim for stating the obvious, without the BS political correctness everybody seems to be obsessed with nowadays.
Re: 997 Turbo Auto Bild comparison test
Trip, I have dealt with fatalities in the real world. So you deal with a internet post. Me callous? Take heed to the potential results of driving gone terrinly wrong. I hope I shocked you into thinking about that. Having seen morbid events first hand, conveying them to you hopefully had some impact.
Be careful. Humans are incredibly fragile. It only takes
75 ft lbs of blunt trauma in the right place to terminate one.
Be careful. Humans are incredibly fragile. It only takes
75 ft lbs of blunt trauma in the right place to terminate one.
Re: 997 Turbo Auto Bild comparison test
Sorry to say Jim you didn't shock me and I am aware of how fragile the human body is, I just prefer to refer to people who die in car crashes as victims rather than "smear marks" I guess that makes me crazy. I have dealt with several people I know dying in car wrecks and it is irritating to see someone have such a seemingly casual attitude about it. As for your reply Crash, that was probably one of the only pointless posts I have seen you make. I am quite aware of what happens to the human body in a high speed impact but don't find the need to write things like "blood splatter everywher, A pillar through the head" like its some sort of video game or movie. Yes these terrible things do happen, thats life, let victims have their dignity instead of launching into graphic descriptions of their final moments. I don't think thats BS political correctness as it is moral correctness (IMHO) however I feel no need to "lighten up" when refering to something like this.
Re: 997 Turbo Auto Bild comparison test
Quote:
trip said:
Sorry to say Jim you didn't shock me and I am aware of how fragile the human body is, I just prefer to refer to people who die in car crashes as victims rather than "smear marks" I guess that makes me crazy. I have dealt with several people I know dying in car wrecks and it is irritating to see someone have such a seemingly casual attitude about it. As for your reply Crash, that was probably one of the only pointless posts I have seen you make. I am quite aware of what happens to the human body in a high speed impact but don't find the need to write things like "blood splatter everywher, A pillar through the head" like its some sort of video game or movie. Yes these terrible things do happen, thats life, let victims have their dignity instead of launching into graphic descriptions of their final moments. I don't think thats BS political correctness as it is moral correctness (IMHO) however I feel no need to "lighten up" when refering to something like this.
I disagree. All the crashes I've seen (and pictures CAN'T do them justice) resulted in people, who were fine just minutes ago, turnign into a bloody pulp. This is what most of you try to ignore, the fact that youi very likely won't leave a pretty corpse when you crash at high speeds. As for dignity, most of the victims' families usually want their loved ones to be pictured in the traffic safety videos, so dignity isn't an issue. Also, this isn't about morals. THis is strictly about political correctness. It would be immoral to wave around a picture of a dead guy, but speaking about it the way Jim and I do is there only to illustrate reality, nothing more, nothing less. It's a simple fact that people die in traffic accidents and they die horrendously, as no death is pretty. Trying to pretend this doesn't happen is akin to an ostrich sticking its head inside a hole in the ground and pretending it's safe.
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