Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: This is the kind of engine Porsche should have in the Cay - Page1

Jun 28, 2006 7:39:04 AM

temm: Rennteam Master; Loc: Oslo , Norway; Posts: 4122, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 24, 2003

This is the kind of engine Porsche should have in the Cay

Quote:
Tweaked X3 gets 282bhp diesel

The new powerplant is a twin-turbo 3.0-litre diesel producing 282bhp and 428lb (580 nm) ft of torque that has been developed from the engine used in the BMW 535d. It gives the auto-only X3 3.0sd seriously rapid performance, with 0-62mph in 6.6 seconds and a 149mph top speed.

Story:
Tweaked X3 gets 282bhp diesel

And if they stick this engine in the 3-series Coupe, with 580 nm from 1750 rpm, even a 997 will have trouble keeping up with it, from say 80-120 kph.

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Jun 28, 2006 7:53:52 AM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: temm

Re: This is the kind of engine Porsche should have in the Cay

Temm here is more:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/news/...look.116602.htm

And unfortunaltely this engine will not go in e90, at least not right now... But, e90 and e92 have bi-turbo 3.0l gasoline engine in 335i and that engine will not go in new X3... This enigne is without turbo lag BTW(as is bi-turbo diesel wonder!)!

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Jun 28, 2006 8:12:22 AM

temm: Rennteam Master; Loc: Oslo , Norway; Posts: 4122, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 24, 2003; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: This is the kind of engine Porsche should have in the Cay

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
This enigne is without turbo lag BTW(as is bi-turbo diesel wonder!)!

Isn't that what they said about the 997 Turbo as well

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Jun 28, 2006 8:27:49 AM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: temm

Re: This is the kind of engine Porsche should have in the Cay

Yes, they did! But, BMW 3.0L Bi-turbo use small Mitsubishi turbos and DI technology. Also it is tuned for max. usage not power. Here is interesting chart:

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Jun 28, 2006 8:35:48 AM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: This is the kind of engine Porsche should have in the Cay

Now, look at 335i torque and power curve...
Power is 306hp from 5800-6300rpm, red line 7000rpm!
And torque curve is awsome as well.

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Jun 28, 2006 10:08:07 AM

ed_moree: Rennteam Pro; Loc: spain , China; Posts: 2407, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 15, 2005; Reply to: temm

Re: This is the kind of engine Porsche should have in the Cay

Com'on guys a diesel in a Porsche?!?!?!

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Jun 28, 2006 10:10:17 AM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: ed_moree

Re: This is the kind of engine Porsche should have in the Cay

No! But, excellent engine for Sporty SUV!
BTW, did you drive TIP version of Cayenne V6? This thing sucks big time, IMO:

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Jun 28, 2006 10:44:26 AM

temm: Rennteam Master; Loc: Oslo , Norway; Posts: 4122, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 24, 2003; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: This is the kind of engine Porsche should have in the Cay

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Now, look at 335i torque and power curve...
Power is 306hp from 5800-6300rpm, red line 7000rpm!
And torque curve is awsome as well.

Hmmm, maybe this is the engine the Cayenne should have had

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Jun 28, 2006 10:49:44 AM

temm: Rennteam Master; Loc: Oslo , Norway; Posts: 4122, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 24, 2003; Reply to: ed_moree

Re: This is the kind of engine Porsche should have in the Cay

Quote:
ed_moree said:
Com'on guys a diesel in a Porsche?!?!?!

Com'on Ed, Porsche as a SUV?

(Yes I know, they needed it to survive...or was that to make the shareholders even happier, as in richer)

They already crossed over to the "dark side" when they ventured into SUV territory IMO, so I don't care what kind of engine they put into it. And if diesel is good enough to win Le Mans with, then I suppose it could be tolerated in a sporty SUV as well.

All I want is an engine that can get the 2.5 tonne Cayenne going at a relatively quick pace without using umpteen gallons of fuel while doing so.

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Jun 28, 2006 8:58:36 PM

pedrolo: Newbie; Loc: Catalunya; Posts: 17, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 25, 2004; Reply to: temm

Re: This is the kind of engine Porsche should have in the Ca

Quote:
temm said:
Quote:
ed_moree said:
Com'on guys a diesel in a Porsche?!?!?!

Com'on Ed, Porsche as a SUV?
(Yes I know, they needed it to survive...or was that to make the shareholders even happier, as in richer)

They already crossed over to the "dark side" when they ventured into SUV territory IMO, so I don't care what kind of engine they put into it. And if diesel is good enough to win Le Mans with, then I suppose it could be tolerated in a sporty SUV as well.

All I want is an engine that can get the 2.5 tonne Cayenne going at a relatively quick pace without using umpteen gallons of fuel while doing so.

You're wrong... Porche hasn't got a SUV, Porsche has "The SUV", and if you have enough money to get a Cayenne you'll have also for the gas.

And for the Lemans Audi R10... Lemans rules let diesel engines to have 40% more displacement and 200% more turbo pressure so... Gasoline cars went 4 sec faster than the R10 on each lap, the thing is that the diesel didn't have to stop to boxes as often as the others. And one more thing, the R10 didn't use common diesel engine fuel, it use an especial fuel specifically developed by Shell for that car.

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Jun 29, 2006 9:06:52 AM

ed_moree: Rennteam Pro; Loc: spain , China; Posts: 2407, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 15, 2005; Reply to: pedrolo

Re: This is the kind of engine Porsche should have in the Ca

Quote:
pedrolo said:
Quote:
temm said:
Quote:
ed_moree said:
Com'on guys a diesel in a Porsche?!?!?!

Com'on Ed, Porsche as a SUV?
(Yes I know, they needed it to survive...or was that to make the shareholders even happier, as in richer)

They already crossed over to the "dark side" when they ventured into SUV territory IMO, so I don't care what kind of engine they put into it. And if diesel is good enough to win Le Mans with, then I suppose it could be tolerated in a sporty SUV as well.

All I want is an engine that can get the 2.5 tonne Cayenne going at a relatively quick pace without using umpteen gallons of fuel while doing so.

You're wrong... Porche hasn't got a SUV, Porsche has "The SUV", and if you have enough money to get a Cayenne you'll have also for the gas.

And for the Lemans Audi R10... Lemans rules let diesel engines to have 40% more displacement and 200% more turbo pressure so... Gasoline cars went 4 sec faster than the R10 on each lap, the thing is that the diesel didn't have to stop to boxes as often as the others. And one more thing, the R10 didn't use common diesel engine fuel, it use an especial fuel specifically developed by Shell for that car.

OK so I agree that with all that temm says that there may be a "special" diesel to put in the SUV, but when you stop to a diesel pump... it is still a diesel. And I agree that they already passed to the dark side when they made the SUV. And because of the performances and so on I agree that it may be "the SUV", and you should be stupid to buy the Cayenne without having the money to pay for the gas, being the V6 or the Turbo. Now the thing is not that the Porsche made the SUV, is more the way it looks that I don't like, it does not tingles nothing when you look at it.... So now I can accept it as the fastest best and "the SUV", but because of the looks, please, not a diesel!!! Fix the looks before and after I may be able to see that diesel.....

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Jun 29, 2006 5:56:30 PM

CityRacer: Junior; Loc: CA; Posts: 61, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 2, 2005; Reply to: ed_moree

Re: This is the kind of engine Porsche should have in the Ca

A leading edge company such as Porsche shouldn't stand still. In my opinion, SUV is a totally valid market segment for Porsche to be in. Offroad racing has been a sport for decades now, just as racing is a sport. The performance SUV concept is very contemporary, and it offers a tremendously fun driving experience. I'm glad Porsche made the Cayenne. As for the looks, it's a matter of personal taste. I happen to like the look of the Cayenne. It's quite unique, and also very friendly looking. I'm not a fan of those pretend-to-be-sleek designs found with most Japanese cars.

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Jun 30, 2006 1:48:13 PM

426h: Junior; Loc: Stockholm, SWE; Posts: 101, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 19, 2004; Reply to: temm

Re: This is the kind of engine Porsche should have in the Cay

Quote:
temm said:

Quote:
Tweaked X3 gets 282bhp diesel

The new powerplant is a twin-turbo 3.0-litre diesel producing 282bhp and 428lb (580 nm) ft of torque that has been developed from the engine used in the BMW 535d. It gives the auto-only X3 3.0sd seriously rapid performance, with 0-62mph in 6.6 seconds and a 149mph top speed.

Story:
Tweaked X3 gets 282bhp diesel

And if they stick this engine in the 3-series Coupe, with 580 nm from 1750 rpm, even a 997 will have trouble keeping up with it, from say 80-120 kph.

Torque does nothing for the acceleration of a car. Horsepower does. All these torque figures is just marketing bullshit....

I will never buy a diesel car/truck. Never.

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Jun 30, 2006 1:58:09 PM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: 426h

Re: This is the kind of engine Porsche should have in the Cay

Quote:
426h said:
All these torque figures is just marketing bullshit....

Talk about BS!!!

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Torque gives an indication of how you can use the HP and they are mathematically related.

That is the reason why for example, a Turbo trumps a 430 on real driving conditions. Because the driver can use the 480hp as low as 2000 rpm whereas the racey characteristic of the 430's engine means you have to rev it exploit it (which is a goo thing too depending on your driving style) although there's been huge progress from the 360 Modena (the engine volume helps obviously).

Torque is just as, if not more, important than the hp figure.

Diesel cars have done huge progress in the past couple of years, because they fit better Mr X style of driving (huge torque from low rpm) for a much better fuel consumption.
What you lose is driving pleasure as the rev spectrum is very small but they are incredibly efficient.

They even win the 24h of Le Mans now!

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Jun 30, 2006 2:01:35 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: Futch

Re: This is the kind of engine Porsche should have in the Cay

Fanch, I agree with you 100%!!

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Jun 30, 2006 2:06:23 PM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: pedrolo

Re: This is the kind of engine Porsche should have in the Ca

Quote:
pedrolo said:
You're wrong... Porche hasn't got a SUV, Porsche has "The SUV", and if you have enough money to get a Cayenne you'll have also for the gas.

And for the Lemans Audi R10... Lemans rules let diesel engines to have 40% more displacement and 200% more turbo pressure so... Gasoline cars went 4 sec faster than the R10 on each lap, the thing is that the diesel didn't have to stop to boxes as often as the others. And one more thing, the R10 didn't use common diesel engine fuel, it use an especial fuel specifically developed by Shell for that car.

They had THE performance SUV til the ML63 showed. Only comparing numbers here of course.

It's not only about the money. I have enough money for a Cayenne Turbo S, but I'd probably take a ML420 cdi over it because:

- Performance is not what I look for in the first place in an SUV.
- Because on long journeys, which is what these cars are for, I'll arrive way faster with the Merc.
You wrote it yourself, you stop every 400 km with the Porsche to refill (make that 250 in the city!) while you're covering 700 km with the Merc.

It all depends what you want to do with the car.

I have enough money for the gas but I don't have the time to spend more time at the petrol station than on the road.

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Jun 30, 2006 2:35:26 PM

EricAlain: Veteran; Loc: Paris, France , France; Posts: 1037, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2002; Reply to: Futch

Re: This is the kind of engine Porsche should have in the Ca

Clearly our friend "426h" does not have a single clue on Torque and HP ...

There was an excellent thread a few month ago on this topic.

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Jun 30, 2006 9:11:05 PM

426h: Junior; Loc: Stockholm, SWE; Posts: 101, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 19, 2004; Reply to: Futch

Re: This is the kind of engine Porsche should have in the Cay

Quote:
Fanch said:
Quote:
426h said:
All these torque figures is just marketing bullshit....

Talk about BS!!!

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Torque gives an indication of how you can use the HP and they are mathematically related.

That is the reason why for example, a Turbo trumps a 430 on real driving conditions. Because the driver can use the 480hp as low as 2000 rpm whereas the racey characteristic of the 430's engine means you have to rev it exploit it (which is a goo thing too depending on your driving style) although there's been huge progress from the 360 Modena (the engine volume helps obviously).

Torque is just as, if not more, important than the hp figure.

Diesel cars have done huge progress in the past couple of years, because they fit better Mr X style of driving (huge torque from low rpm) for a much better fuel consumption.
What you lose is driving pleasure as the rev spectrum is very small but they are incredibly efficient.

They even win the 24h of Le Mans now!

Ha ha ha ha! I am a little busy right now, so I don't have time to explain the effect of torque and horsepower. You are right that there is a mathematical relationship between the two. However it's clear that you don't understand the relationship and its implification on a cars performance.

A high torque at a low rpm isn't very useful because it gives a low power output (horsepower). A high torque at a high rpm is another thing....

More to follow on this subject.;)

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Jul 1, 2006 6:13:28 AM

426h: Junior; Loc: Stockholm, SWE; Posts: 101, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 19, 2004; Reply to: 426h

Re: This is the kind of engine Porsche should have in the Cay

The sad thing about this torque vs horsepower subject is that a lot of people, especially motor journalists, seem to have been asleep during physics class in school. 99% of all car review articles in car mags is actually WRONG on this subject.

Diesel car manufacturers are very eager to talk about torque. This is simply because their engines operate at a low rpm and thus, all things equal, gives high torque numbers. (And high numbers sell!) Torque however, is a static unit witch says nothing WITHOUT rpm. The relationship between torque and power output (kw) is kw=nm x rpm x pi / 30000. (1kw=1,36hp). With a given power output you can increase torque INFINITE by increasing the leverage (choosing a lower gear).

For example, if you are a skinny guy, like myself, you can probably lift 50 kg = 500 Newton off the ground. If I use a 10-meter leverage, I can, with the same power output, lift 500 kg and produce 5000 Nm! Quite impressive you might think, actually NOT, since torque says NOTHING without rpm!!! If I have a good day, I might be able to spin the 10-meter pole at 2 rpm, which gives 0,75 horsepower's (see formula above).

If you translate this effort into a car engine, is it the 5000 Nm or 0,75 hp that determines the acceleration of the car????

What do you guys think? Fanch? EricAlain?

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