Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: 500 miles Review - Page1

Jun 27, 2006 7:29:26 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59602, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: ADias

Re: 500 miles Review-Q. for Amir and all 997TT owners

Quote:
ADias said:
Amir may be correct that PAG may go after the SL/AMG market, but... the 997TT is no MB SL, it is a 911 Porsche. Why? it has an engine in the rear and it feels like no other car feels. If one sees and feels the car this way, one is a true 911 fan, otherwise, one is only after the new toy on the block.

Very well said. I don't know why people always complaint, I suppose some owners expect wonders from the car when they should actually start improving their driving skills first.
I'm more than willing to show what the 997 Turbo is capable of, I hope I get the chance this Saturday/Sunday.

And before all this "GT" bragging starts again, the 997 Turbo is almost as fast as a F430/Gallardo with SEMI-SLICKS on a tight track, so guys...cut me a break.

The "problem" with the 997 Turbo is always the fact that it is easy to drive...or better said: it feels easy to drive up to a certain speed. And I doubt that many people are actually experiencing the limit of the 997 Turbo handling, simply because they would either crash the car or they can't do it. I know, I know...everybody drives great and fast but trust me, from what I've seen so far at driving events/meetings: it is one thing to do a nice drift and another thing to drive a clean line and be faster than anybody else. Bottom line: if you think that 100 mph in a country road curve is fast, think again.

Maybe Carlos should explain what it means in Europe to get a thumbs up from motorcycle riders.

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Jun 27, 2006 7:41:19 AM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12682, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: bluelines

Re: 500 miles Review

Quote:
bluelines said:
Porsche never said they eliminated the turbo lag. What they say is that with VTG it is possible to achieve higher turbine speed, and thus higher boost pressure, at lower engine rpm than with a conventional turbine. That will reduce the turbo lag, not eliminate it. To eliminate the turbo lag you have to go with forced induction, like a compressor for example.

Not true, sorry. Mr. Dürheimer himself said at the presentation in Füssen, VTG eliminates the turbo lag.

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Jun 27, 2006 7:46:19 AM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12682, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: AmirGT2

Re: 500 miles Review

Quote:
AmirGT2 said:
Even from a pricing stand point, I don't think that it's a coincidence that the turbo is more in line with the SL55/63 and DB9 rather than the Gallardo and F430. And there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever. Porsche, is not the one comparing the TT with the F430 and Gallardo. Rather it's the media and the consumers that are not catching on to this transition. For a small company, they made a killing off of the 996TT in coupe and convertible versions in comparison to the 993TT or the 964 turbo.

Porsche is comparing the new Turbo with all these cars. Take a look at the 997tt product information. In chapter 15 ("Core competition") you'll find the following cars: F430, Gallardo, M6, SL55 AMG, SL600, DB9.

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Jun 27, 2006 8:58:00 AM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: Rossi

Re: 500 miles Review

Quote:
Rossi said:
Quote:
AmirGT2 said:
Even from a pricing stand point, I don't think that it's a coincidence that the turbo is more in line with the SL55/63 and DB9 rather than the Gallardo and F430. And there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever. Porsche, is not the one comparing the TT with the F430 and Gallardo. Rather it's the media and the consumers that are not catching on to this transition. For a small company, they made a killing off of the 996TT in coupe and convertible versions in comparison to the 993TT or the 964 turbo.

Porsche is comparing the new Turbo with all these cars. Take a look at the 997tt product information. In chapter 15 ("Core competition") you'll find the following cars: F430, Gallardo, M6, SL55 AMG, SL600, DB9.

It is incredible, isn't it? A car, that can do everything those cars can do and be the best in most of those things?

Excluding, of course, the raw exhaust sound and the "feel" of a Ferrari, if you prefer that.

RC,

well said!

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Jun 27, 2006 10:35:15 AM

bluelines: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Argovia , Switzerland; Posts: 11655, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 29, 2005; Reply to: Rossi

Re: 500 miles Review

Quote:
Rossi said:
Quote:
bluelines said:
Porsche never said they eliminated the turbo lag. What they say is that with VTG it is possible to achieve higher turbine speed, and thus higher boost pressure, at lower engine rpm than with a conventional turbine. That will reduce the turbo lag, not eliminate it. To eliminate the turbo lag you have to go with forced induction, like a compressor for example.

Not true, sorry. Mr. Dürheimer himself said at the presentation in Füssen, VTG eliminates the turbo lag.

Haha, then clearly Mr. Dürheimer himself did not know what he was talking about.

...or he did some over-enthusiastic marketing which some believed

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Jun 27, 2006 11:04:12 AM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12682, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: bluelines

Re: 500 miles Review

Quote:
bluelines said:
Quote:
Rossi said:
Quote:
bluelines said:
Porsche never said they eliminated the turbo lag. What they say is that with VTG it is possible to achieve higher turbine speed, and thus higher boost pressure, at lower engine rpm than with a conventional turbine. That will reduce the turbo lag, not eliminate it. To eliminate the turbo lag you have to go with forced induction, like a compressor for example.

Not true, sorry. Mr. Dürheimer himself said at the presentation in Füssen, VTG eliminates the turbo lag.

Haha, then clearly Mr. Dürheimer himself did not know what he was talking about.

...or he did some over-enthusiastic marketing which some believed

I would definetely say the latter is the case...

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Jun 27, 2006 11:18:26 AM

zzboba: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Germany; Posts: 3115, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: Rossi

Re: 500 miles Review

Quote:
I would definetely say the latter is the case...

i'm wondering now, with all this marketing and press hype regarding VTG... WHAT really is VTG good for if it's NOT eliminating the turbo lag?

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Jun 27, 2006 11:20:35 AM

Nick_Athens: Senior; Loc: Greece , Greece; Posts: 710, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 23, 2004; Reply to: zzboba

Re: 500 miles Review

Quote:
zzboba said:

Quote:
I would definetely say the latter is the case...

i'm wondering now, with all this marketing and press hype regarding VTG... WHAT really is VTG good for if it's NOT eliminating the turbo lag?

You can't incrise the cars power output so much...

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Jun 27, 2006 12:03:38 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: Nick_Athens

Re: 500 miles Review

Quote:
Nick_Athens said:
Quote:
zzboba said:

Quote:
I would definetely say the latter is the case...

i'm wondering now, with all this marketing and press hype regarding VTG... WHAT really is VTG good for if it's NOT eliminating the turbo lag?

You can't incrise the cars power output so much...

You know, that's exactly what I thought about last night. If VTG doesn't really eliminate much turbo lag, why not just use ball-bearing turbochargers? Simple. If the tuners have it hard to perform any power increases, which cost huge amounts of money and void the warranty, many customers will buy the rather pricey, but warranty-covered powerkit, at least when it becomes available on new cars. Another 10.000 Euros down Porsche's pocket, thanks to the amazing new technology.

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Jun 27, 2006 1:27:15 PM

ALDO: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany, Black Forrest , Germany; Posts: 3078, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2003; Reply to: zzboba

Re: 500 miles Review

Quote:
zzboba said:

Quote:
I would definetely say the latter is the case...

i'm wondering now, with all this marketing and press hype regarding VTG... WHAT really is VTG good for if it's NOT eliminating the turbo lag?

If there would be space enough a double turbo system (one small and one large) with bypass would be much better. But there is no space left for such extra equipment.

AM

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Jun 27, 2006 3:11:33 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: mastiffdog

Re: 500 miles Review

Quote:
mastiffdog said:
This is a tough thread for a first post, but I just bought my 997TT and it will be here in about one week. I bought my last P-car 6 years ago and I am looking forward to the delivery of this car. I live close by to Amir and spoke to him briefly. He is sincere and very kind in conversation as he is on the forum and obviously has "hands-on" experience with literally the world's finest sports cars, so his opinions carry some serious weight.

The 997TT is my only sports car and will be for a long time to come as it was a stretch for me to finally get into such a beautiful car. I am grateful to be lucky enough to own a car like this. While I appreciate all of the finer points many of you have discussed, and while the controversy over the VTG lag, exhaust sound and suspension will go on in the form of rhetorical dialectic for days and months on end, I will be smack dab in the middle of my garage in the wee hours of the night admiring my new Porsche car.

When everything is said and done and at the end of the day your feelings is all that matters.

Jack, your right about Amir. I was choking as I wrote that about him.

Your impressions of the 997TT mirror mine when I drove the 996TT. No doubt a great car and very fast. But I was not exhilerated by the car. It left me empty and unmoved. To each his own.

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Jun 27, 2006 4:30:57 PM

Hurst: Veteran; Loc: Potomac, MD; Posts: 1255, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2005; Reply to: ALDO

Re: 500 miles Review

Quote:
mumbasic said:
Quote:
zzboba said:

Quote:
I would definetely say the latter is the case...

i'm wondering now, with all this marketing and press hype regarding VTG... WHAT really is VTG good for if it's NOT eliminating the turbo lag?

If there would be space enough a double turbo system (one small and one large) with bypass would be much better. But there is no space left for such extra equipment.

AM

Again, I think weshould give a little more time to these initial cars to fully break in. Who knows how long it takes for the VTG to be properly activated? Perhaps the ECU regulates the aperture of the blades at first because it needs a bit of breaking in before its ready to really handle all the stress of the super high temperatures...

Patience?

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Jun 27, 2006 6:05:49 PM

ALDO: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany, Black Forrest , Germany; Posts: 3078, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2003; Reply to: Hurst

Re: 500 miles Review

Sometimes it is like religion!

AM

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Jun 27, 2006 9:49:30 PM

svtrader1: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 821, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2003; Reply to: Crash

Re: 500 miles Review

Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
Nick_Athens said:
Quote:
zzboba said:

Quote:
I would definetely say the latter is the case...

i'm wondering now, with all this marketing and press hype regarding VTG... WHAT really is VTG good for if it's NOT eliminating the turbo lag?

You can't incrise the cars power output so much...

You know, that's exactly what I thought about last night. If VTG doesn't really eliminate much turbo lag, why not just use ball-bearing turbochargers? Simple. If the tuners have it hard to perform any power increases, which cost huge amounts of money and void the warranty, many customers will buy the rather pricey, but warranty-covered powerkit, at least when it becomes available on new cars. Another 10.000 Euros down Porsche's pocket, thanks to the amazing new technology.

Now, you're thinking!

It's doesn't eliminate lag and there's no increase in power over a 996 GT2 mk11. So, what is the real purpose of VTG??????

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Jun 27, 2006 9:53:33 PM

brunner: Veteran; Loc: E. Europe , Romania; Posts: 1125, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 28, 2003; Reply to: svtrader1

Re: 500 miles Review

Some of you must be smoking some really heavy stuff to think VTG doesn't decrease the turbo lag.
Funny (and typical) how those saying that haven't even driven the car...

Quote:
So, what is the real purpose of VTG??????

Lemme guess: it's a shameless marketing ploy from the greedy Porsche?
Did i get it right?

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Jun 27, 2006 10:44:34 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: brunner

Re: 500 miles Review

Quote:
So, what is the real purpose of VTG??????

Lemme guess: it's a shameless marketing ploy from the greedy Porsche?
Did i get it right?

Brunner I am proud of you. You are now using your head and not your heart. Your guess is right on!

BTW isn't VTG old technology? It has been around for some time used primarily in diesel engines.

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Jun 27, 2006 11:10:27 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: 500 miles Review

The VTG's real purpose is to generate enough heat to keep Bavarian garages warm in the winter.

I suspect that the real reason for the VTG has more to do with emissions and noise control than with performance.

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Jun 27, 2006 11:36:16 PM

AmirGT2: Co-Pilot; Loc: Los Angeles; Posts: 185, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 24, 2003; Reply to: brunner

Re: 500 miles Review

So Brunner does that mean you have driven the 997TT? If so how would you compare it to previous generation Turbos?

Thanks,

Amir

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Jun 28, 2006 12:06:12 AM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002; Reply to: brunner

Re: 500 miles Review

Quote:
brunner said:
Some of you must be smoking some really heavy stuff to think VTG doesn't decrease the turbo lag.

Now that this issue came up, never wanted to mention it before, I also heard from some one that is very knowledgable about engines that there wouldn't be any advantage in using VTG.
But I seriously doubt it if Porsche would just use the term VTG for marketing.

Can someone elaborate more on the VTG please. I have read articles about it but does a gasoline engine benefit from it?

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Jun 28, 2006 12:18:37 AM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: Grant

Re: 500 miles Review-Q. for Amir and all 997TT owners

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
VKSF said:Still don't understand all these turbo lag claims vs 997TT's tq curve....

A torque curve is very deceiving on a turbocharged car. There is another critical variable that is not represented on the two dimensional graph of torque vs. rpm and that is Engine Load.

Turbos require load on the engine to spool the turbos, so the torque curve is only accurate under the most optimal of situtions. If the engine is unloaded (like revving in neutral or coasting in a high gear), there is inadequate exhaust flow and consequently, there is minimal turbine speed.

So, the engine will need MUCH higher rpms to build boost and create large amount of torque than what the torque curve will show, unless the motor is under load.

This is why the 997TT launches so well with the Tip and brake torquing - it creates a load on the engine as the car strains to break free and the brakes keep the car stationary.

This is totally different from normally aspirated motors (where the torque curve can be trusted in all cases) and often overlooked...

Detailed explanation much appreciated, Grant

Actually am very much looking forward to learning nuances of 997TT Tip's throttle/driving style nuances that RC has mentioned in various posts....should be an interesting learning curve, but that's part of what makes these cars fun...

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Jun 28, 2006 12:25:35 AM

trip: Expert; Loc: Bay Area California , United States; Posts: 1691, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 11, 2006; Reply to: WBH

Re: 500 miles Review-Q. for Amir and all 997TT owners

I think the biggest advantages of VTG are the even steeper torque curve, and amazing torque range. Like Grant said, it depends on load so the advantages of VTG are probably best felt when doing standing start acceleration runs by reving up (thereby loading the engine) and either dumping the clutch or releasing the brakes.

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Jun 28, 2006 9:02:23 AM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12682, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: 500 miles Review

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
The VTG's real purpose is to generate enough heat to keep Bavarian garages warm in the winter.

Very funny!

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Jun 28, 2006 12:28:07 PM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3996, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: 500 miles Review

Quote:
nberry said:Brunner I am proud of you. You are now using your head and not your heart.

Now, now Nick.

Instead of using your head, you're venting your spleen

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Jun 28, 2006 2:04:03 PM

Rafael from Spain: Junior; Loc: Madrid, Spain; Posts: 73, Gallery; Registered on: May 16, 2005; Reply to: W8MM

Re: 500 miles Review

Let me try to help with Lag on Turbo engines.
There are 2 types of Lag.
1. When the engine is bellow the threshold of the Turbo in the rpm range, you open throtle and have to wait some time till revs raise and you get inside the Turbo boost map.

2. When the engine is within the correct rpm range for the Turbo to spool up but there is no load on the engine (partially or completely off throttle) In this case when you press the gas there has to be some waiting for the exhaust gas to compress inlet air and increase pressure on inlet manifold.

The first type of lag is dependent on the size of the Turbo, big turbos give more boost but need higher rpm under load to start boosting, so it has always been a comprimise with many aproaches (2 smaller turbos instead of one big Turbo is the more used solution)

What does VTG is improve even more this by changing automatically the size of the Turbo so they act like very small Turbos at low revs and like big Turbos at high revs.

So it is not a marketing technology, the advantage of a VTG system is you can fit a larger turbo (more boost capacity at high revs=higher final HP figure) without comprimising a lot the low rev zone. This is why to torque of the 997TT is a little bit higher at the high part of the engine than the 996 (=bigger Turbo used) and a lot better at the lower part.

There are some other ways to achive the same result.
- Compressor and Turbo like the Lancia Delta S4 or new VW Golf GT
- Sequential Turbos (959 and some new BMW engines)

I think VTG is the simpler and lighter solutions so on theory it is the best.

The second type of lag will always exist on a Turbo Engine and it is more noticable when overtaking or during gear changes (this is why rally cars have anti-lag systems to prevent the lost of boost during gear changes) This lag depends mainly on the capicity of the turbine to gain speed, so you need to correctly design the exhaust manifold and exhaust system to obtain the higher possible speed of the flow of exhaust gasses and reduce as much as possible the weight of the moving part of the Turbo turbine (compressor part)

Now here comes the problem, I am sure VTG Turbo is vey well made but because it has more moving parts and a complex turbine that alters it shape I am sure is heavier than the 996TT one so Lag type 2 should be a little bit higher than on the 996TT that is what some members are noticing.

Best waw to improve Lag type 2 is by incrementing the diameter of the exhaust Tube and making it as smooth as possible (no cats or silencers and very straight). Although this will increment lag type 1 as the engine when turbos are not boosting will become more lazy. Compromises, always compromises

Hope it helps

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Jun 28, 2006 2:24:04 PM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002; Reply to: Rafael from Spain

Re: 500 miles Review

Will that be on the test?

Thanks for the explaination very informative

.

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Jun 28, 2006 3:35:48 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Rafael from Spain

Re: 500 miles Review

Rafael - Excellent post. However, I think the VTG has moving vanes that direct air into the turbines, but the actual turbine blades themselves are fixed. So the spinning parts are not actually any more massive, afaik.

Also, the new BMW twin turbo (335i) is not sequential - there is one turbo for each set of 3 cylinders. Maybe you were referring to another model?

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Jun 28, 2006 3:48:40 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: 500 miles Review

Here is where you can find some interesting info about new BMW 335i engine:
http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=242618&an=0&page=0#242618

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Jun 28, 2006 5:17:40 PM

Rafael from Spain: Junior; Loc: Madrid, Spain; Posts: 73, Gallery; Registered on: May 16, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: 500 miles Review

I think BMW has sequential turbos on the 535d the latest diesel.

Diesel suffer from the type 1 lag I was explaining much more than petrol, specially because a diesel engine off boost does not provide almost any power compare to a petrol engine.

Edited from news "As in the 535d, the new engine uses two turbos: one small and one large, to produce plenty of urge lower in the rev range, as well as to reduce turbo lag to a minimum. This means peak torque is developed from just 1750rpm through to 2250rpm, but the engine can rev to 4400rpm"

About the VTG Turbo on the 997 I remember from the Porsche film that the compressor housing on the Turbo was the one changing shapes and rotating (ie moving) but I could be wrong. A good solution to reduce weight is using ceramic or titanium parts for the Turbo

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Jun 28, 2006 6:05:17 PM

Bending: Newbie; Loc: europe; Posts: 48, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 20, 2006; Reply to: Rafael from Spain

Re: 500 miles Review

Good Job!

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Jun 28, 2006 6:21:10 PM

manu: Junior; Loc: spain; Posts: 56, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 7, 2005; Reply to: Rafael from Spain

Re: 500 miles Review

Quote:
Rafael from Spain said:
Now here comes the problem, I am sure VTG Turbo is vey well made but because it has more moving parts and a complex turbine that alters it shape I am sure is heavier than the 996TT one so Lag type 2 should be a little bit higher than on the 996TT that is what some members are noticing.

hi, actually the VTG turbo doesn't alter its turbine shape, just has a moving ports in order to face exhaust gases against it, driving them and changing ports size in order to improve the flow for the instant amount of gases.Here cames the complexity of the system and problems related of holding high temperatures because can grip moving parts and obstruct them with the exhaust garbage; so the turbine by itself is not heavier than a normal one, but the whole turbocharger so.

This system reduces the high revs lag too cause the variable ports are not connected to turbine revs, it runs related of loadness thus when you are in a good rev zone and push the thorttle the ports will be closed till you reach a proper amount of flow.

saludos

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