Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Autoweek article - Page3

Apr 17, 2005 1:23:03 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: Autoweek article

Quote:
RC said:
The one thing I don't understand about the Cayman is: why would people want a Cayman S and not a Boxster S with the possibility to open the top?
Is the Cayman S much lighter than the Boxster S? I doubt it.
Is it more powerful? Well, 15 HP more isn't really a significant upgrade.
Is it faster on the track? The Boxster S is already a very refined car, I don't see much room for improvement.

So why the Cayman? Honestly, I don't know.

I much prefer a closed coupe to a convertible for a sports car - I might be in the minority, but aside from the weight issue, I like a well-designed coupe's appearance, rigidity (better handling as well as its fewer rattles), safety, weather resistance, high-speed performance (less wind noise and more aerodynamic), etc.

I love convertibles (my first car was my dad's 1970 Cadillac Coupe de Ville convertible with 7.7L motor), but I think they're better on a luxury or GT car...

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Apr 17, 2005 1:26:41 PM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: Autoweek article

Quote:
RC said:
The one thing I don't understand about the Cayman is: why would people want a Cayman S and not a Boxster S with the possibility to open the top?
Is the Cayman S much lighter than the Boxster S? I doubt it.
Is it more powerful? Well, 15 HP more isn't really a significant upgrade.
Is it faster on the track? The Boxster S is already a very refined car, I don't see much room for improvement.

So why the Cayman? Honestly, I don't know.

Some people don't like open top cars I guess.
There is a market for the Cayman I think.
I will not have the "hairdresser" image a lot of Porsche hardcore enthousiasts think the Boxster has.
Sorry to write this, I personally don't think so (I was a proud owner of a 986S 252hp, my 1st Porsche

) but some people do.
Remember the quote from the TV show "the Sopranos"?:
"A Boxster is a Porshe with panties!"....

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Apr 18, 2005 12:07:46 AM

Yargk: Pilot; Loc: SF Bay Area, CA, USA; Posts: 486, Gallery; Registered on: May 18, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Autoweek article

Quote:
RC said:
The one thing I don't understand about the Cayman is: why would people want a Cayman S and not a Boxster S with the possibility to open the top?
Is the Cayman S much lighter than the Boxster S? I doubt it.
Is it more powerful? Well, 15 HP more isn't really a significant upgrade.
Is it faster on the track? The Boxster S is already a very refined car, I don't see much room for improvement.

So why the Cayman? Honestly, I don't know.

I agree with what Grant says. Also in the words of Walter Rohrl "make it a hardtop and I'll take it seriously." I think I remember hearing that he said this about the CGT, but I may be misquoting.

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Apr 18, 2005 10:00:47 AM

boytronic: Veteran; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 961, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 5, 2005; Reply to: Futch

Re: Autoweek article

Quote:
Fanch said:
I will not have the "hairdresser" image a lot of Porsche hardcore enthousiasts think the Boxster has.

Even the Turbo Cab has been quoted as a "hairdressers" car, even though it may have been the most powerful hair-dryer in the world!

The Cayman may not have the same hairdresser image though, but it could well be the gayest Porsche ever made!

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Apr 18, 2005 11:48:43 AM

Boxster Coupe GTS: Rennteam Master; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 5886, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 23, 2005; Reply to: SoCal Alan

Re: Autoweek article

Quote:
SoCal Alan said:
If you make it mid engine, you have to get rid of the rear seats. If this is the case, they might as well rename the Cayman the new 911.

If Porsche were to make a mid-engined 911, they should look at a 3-seater layout with a central driving position... providing an optimal engine layout, an optimal driving position and two full-sized passenger seats!

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Apr 18, 2005 12:54:00 PM

boytronic: Veteran; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 961, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 5, 2005; Reply to: Boxster Coupe GTS

Re: Autoweek article

Quote:
Boxster Coupe GTS said:
If Porsche were to make a mid-engined 911, they should look at a 3-seater layout with a central driving position... providing an optimal engine layout, an optimal driving position and two full-sized passenger seats!

That would be awesome!! It baffles me why supercar makers don't have this 3-seat arrangement as default, like the McLaren F1 - apart from the amazing driving experience, imagine having a girl either side AND being able to listen to the stereo in true stereo!

I'd pay for that (the car that is)

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Apr 18, 2005 1:19:28 PM

derbaas: Newbie; Loc: Germany; Posts: 29, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 21, 2002; Reply to: Grant

Re: Autoweek article

Quote:
Grant said:

I much prefer a closed coupe to a convertible for a sports car - I might be in the minority, but aside from the weight issue, I like a well-designed coupe's appearance, rigidity (better handling as well as its fewer rattles), safety, weather resistance, high-speed performance (less wind noise and more aerodynamic), etc.

I love convertibles (my first car was my dad's 1970 Cadillac Coupe de Ville convertible with 7.7L motor), but I think they're better on a luxury or GT car...

Sorry RC, what Grant said may not be your position, but isn't it comprehensible that a covertible has not to be necessarily the first choice for a sportscar-enthusiast?
Apart from Grants fundamental arguments: some really DON'T like everybody to look in their car. There are not only extroverted people out there

(hope I could explain my thoughts in spite of language barriers

)

bye
S.

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Apr 19, 2005 12:54:55 PM

vtrader: Veteran; Loc: Los Angeles; Posts: 1086, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 6, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: Autoweek article

Quote:
RC said:
The one thing I don't understand about the Cayman is: why would people want a Cayman S and not a Boxster S with the possibility to open the top?
Is the Cayman S much lighter than the Boxster S? I doubt it.
Is it more powerful? Well, 15 HP more isn't really a significant upgrade.
Is it faster on the track? The Boxster S is already a very refined car, I don't see much room for improvement.

So why the Cayman? Honestly, I don't know.

I also like the coupe version. I would never consider a roadster, but I am seriosly looking to getting a second Porsche (4th actually). Plus, a coupe is more rigid than a roadster so there is a perfomance gain.

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Apr 19, 2005 9:40:41 PM

964C2: Expert; Loc: Dallas, TX , United States; Posts: 1825, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: vtrader

Re: Autoweek article

The coupe version of a car is almost always lighter, stiffer and has better aerodynamics.... as in the case of every variant of the 911.

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Apr 20, 2005 2:52:22 AM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: boytronic

Re: Autoweek article

Quote:
boytronic said:

It baffles me why supercar makers don't have this 3-seat arrangement as default, like the McLaren F1 -

They don't want to lose the fat rich subset of buyers - a "growing" worldwide phenomena of the past 20 plus years . When someone asked Luca de Montezemolo why the then new 360 Modena was so much bigger in the dimensions esp interior than the prev gen 348/355 - he stated that their buyers were getting fatter , in so many words.
Ever see those classic 1950s black and white pics of drivers/spectators at sports car races ? Every man looked like he had a 29 inch waist, whether 18 or 48 years old. Look around you today and compare .

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Apr 20, 2005 12:48:35 PM

zzboba: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Germany; Posts: 3115, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: MKW

Re: Autoweek article

Quote:
They don't want to lose the fat rich subset of buyers - a "growing" worldwide phenomena of the past 20 plus years . When someone asked Luca de Montezemolo why the then new 360 Modena was so much bigger in the dimensions esp interior than the prev gen 348/355 - he stated that their buyers were getting fatter , in so many words.
Ever see those classic 1950s black and white pics of drivers/spectators at sports car races ? Every man looked like he had a 29 inch waist, whether 18 or 48 years old. Look around you today and compare .

very interesting point.
never have thought about this, but seems obvious.

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Apr 20, 2005 2:48:21 PM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: zzboba

Re: Autoweek article

Another factor is that professional athletes around the world buy a lot of the high end cars today , sporty or luxury , as they don't mind extroverted cars . They are " very large " compared to the waif thin chain smoking European royalty or idle rich scions who were the only customers in the past. Can you imagine basketballer Lebron James trying to get into a McLaren F1 - no problem with an Enzo.
30 years ago, only the most elite athletes made money. Today, bench -warming profesional athletes who rarely get into the game still make millions a year.

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Apr 20, 2005 9:49:20 PM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: MKW

Re: Autoweek article

Quote:
MKW said:
Quote:
boytronic said:

It baffles me why supercar makers don't have this 3-seat arrangement as default, like the McLaren F1 -

They don't want to lose the fat rich subset of buyers - a "growing" worldwide phenomena of the past 20 plus years . When someone asked Luca de Montezemolo why the then new 360 Modena was so much bigger in the dimensions esp interior than the prev gen 348/355 - he stated that their buyers were getting fatter , in so many words.
Ever see those classic 1950s black and white pics of drivers/spectators at sports car races ? Every man looked like he had a 29 inch waist, whether 18 or 48 years old. Look around you today and compare .

You are correct, sir! I always notice that whether watching old movies, tv, or sporting events. Most people, male and female, were very trim pre 1980 and especially in the mid-century.

People have become such fat slobs. Oddly enough, however, today's hottest babes are ultra thin.

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Apr 21, 2005 2:03:48 AM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: racerx

Re: Autoweek article

Thank gooodness I grew up in the 60s and 70s when all the girls were slim and trim in jr and high school. Yum.
Of course there was always one fat guy and gal in every class. Today's raging hormones teens get to see 30-70 % of their opposite sex waddling around between classes . Yuk !

Today's " ultra thin " hottest babes look "normal" to me from a 1960s/70s perspective. You are just using as a frame of reference the extra tonnage all the other young people are carrying around.

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Apr 21, 2005 7:46:43 AM

derbaas: Newbie; Loc: Germany; Posts: 29, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 21, 2002; Reply to: MKW

Re: Autoweek article

Quote:
MKW said:
Thank gooodness I grew up in the 60s and 70s when all the girls were slim and trim in jr and high school. Yum.
Of course there was always one fat guy and gal in every class. Today's raging hormones teens get to see 30-70 % of their opposite sex waddling around between classes . Yuk !

Today's " ultra thin " hottest babes look "normal" to me from a 1960s/70s perspective. You are just using as a frame of reference the extra tonnage all the other young people are carrying around.

This argument fits as well for our cars.
60/70s 911 was about 1000 kg, today I presume you will hardly find one at 1500kg (including "hormones" as heated seats, sound system, tiptronic etc.)...

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May 11, 2005 2:00:52 AM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: derbaas

Re: Autoweek article

Any reason that the 911 couldn't be reconfigured as a V8 or V10 or even V12, turbo or sans turbo, kept still as a rear-engined car with the rear "seats" yanked out and built as a 2-seater producing extra room and slight forward weight bias for the larger engine whose center-of-gravity would be placed slightly forward, yielding a better-balanced car with more power? This would maintain the tradition of the 911 as a rear-engined sports car and would allow the Cayman to be safely "niched" between the Boxster and the 911, since the 911 would have plenty of HP to maintain its ueber-car status. There could still be the "base" 911 with the flat-6 as a 2+2 to satisfy the pure traditionalists, with engine upgrades to V8-12 as a 2-seater ala the F430.

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May 11, 2005 3:24:34 AM

dsts6: Senior; Loc: California; Posts: 719, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: Autoweek article

a v8 or v12 would be heavy and you would need to move it significantly forward(?am I right?) to keep good weight distribution. You might as well go mid engine at that point especially if your getting rid of the rear seats. If they just went rear engined and did a flat 6 and flat 8s they would be fine in my opinion. Would any of you guys seriously object to a midengine 911?

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May 11, 2005 5:21:17 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: Autoweek article

Quote:
Al Pettee said:
Any reason that the 911 couldn't be reconfigured as a V8 or V10 or even V12, turbo or sans turbo, kept still as a rear-engined car with the rear "seats" yanked out and built as a 2-seater producing extra room and slight forward weight bias for the larger engine whose center-of-gravity would be placed slightly forward, yielding a better-balanced car with more power? This would maintain the tradition of the 911 as a rear-engined sports car and would allow the Cayman to be safely "niched" between the Boxster and the 911, since the 911 would have plenty of HP to maintain its ueber-car status. There could still be the "base" 911 with the flat-6 as a 2+2 to satisfy the pure traditionalists, with engine upgrades to V8-12 as a 2-seater ala the F430.

FWIW, there are Porsche 911's with Corvette small block V8's fitted into them out there. The weight savings is about 75lbs.

and there are also some converted to mid engine V8 power,
specifically Olds 455 cubic inch V8's and the 3 speed automatic transmission from the Olds Toronado. The rear
seats are removed, the rear bulkhead cut and a custom engine cover fabricated.

Amazingly, Olds 455 V8 headers bolt up exactly to a factory 912 muffler and wierder yet, the Porsche halfshafts bolt up with no modification to the Toronado transmission output flanges.

Either V8 modification requires a throttle stop to prevent
the additional torque from grenading the halfshafts.

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Jun 26, 2006 2:01:02 PM

musicisfree: Newbie; Loc: Germany; Posts: 6, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 26, 2006; Reply to: RC

Re: Autoweek article

Quote:
RC said:
The one thing I don't understand about the Cayman is: why would people want a Cayman S and not a Boxster S with the possibility to open the top?
Is the Cayman S much lighter than the Boxster S? I doubt it.
Is it more powerful? Well, 15 HP more isn't really a significant upgrade.
Is it faster on the track? The Boxster S is already a very refined car, I don't see much room for improvement.

So why the Cayman? Honestly, I don't know.

Because a fixed roof gives you a stiffer structure which allows the suspension to do it's job better. Weight is about the same but every magazine review I have read says that in terms of performance the Cayman S trumps the Boxster S.

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Jun 26, 2006 2:33:58 PM

KenH: Co-Pilot; Loc: Leesburg VA; Posts: 249, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 23, 2004; Reply to: musicisfree

Re: Autoweek article

"The one thing I don't understand about the Cayman is: why would people want a Cayman S and not a Boxster S with the possibility to open the top?"

You might just as well ask why would people buy a Carrera Coupe when they could have the cabriolet?
The fact is that a lot of people (like me) dislike soft-top cars and wouldn't go anywhere near one.
I love the Boxster but I would never buy one and I waited for years for a fixed-roof version.

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Jun 26, 2006 3:27:05 PM

Jeannot: Expert; Loc: Currently in Hong-Kong , Switzerland; Posts: 1745, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 13, 2005; Reply to: musicisfree

Re: Autoweek article

Quote:
musicisfree said:
Quote:
RC said:
The one thing I don't understand about the Cayman is: why would people want a Cayman S and not a Boxster S with the possibility to open the top?
Is the Cayman S much lighter than the Boxster S? I doubt it.
Is it more powerful? Well, 15 HP more isn't really a significant upgrade.
Is it faster on the track? The Boxster S is already a very refined car, I don't see much room for improvement.

So why the Cayman? Honestly, I don't know.

Because a fixed roof gives you a stiffer structure which allows the suspension to do it's job better. Weight is about the same but every magazine review I have read says that in terms of performance the Cayman S trumps the Boxster S.

Trumps is surely exaggerated, if you drive them back to back, you would think about that statement again, especially that the engines in MY07 will be the same. I really wonder what type of road can make the cayman TRUMP the boxster weight and HP equivalent, i.e. on chassis torsion alone

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Jun 26, 2006 5:37:33 PM

toplad: Co-Pilot; Loc: UK; Posts: 166, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 13, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: Autoweek article

Quote:
RC said:
The one thing I don't understand about the Cayman is: why would people want a Cayman S and not a Boxster S with the possibility to open the top?
Is the Cayman S much lighter than the Boxster S? I doubt it.
Is it more powerful? Well, 15 HP more isn't really a significant upgrade.
Is it faster on the track? The Boxster S is already a very refined car, I don't see much room for improvement.

So why the Cayman? Honestly, I don't know.

Can we not just have one thread in which you do not attempt to undermine the Cayman again?

Stiffer, better handling car, wider power band with more power(until the new engine), better on the track and road, better image.

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Jun 26, 2006 6:12:41 PM

Joost: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Dordrecht , Netherlands; Posts: 8057, Gallery; Registered on: May 3, 2004; Reply to: toplad

Re: Autoweek article

Some people just don't like convertibles... me for instance... I would get a cayman anytime over a boxster... not that I dislike a boxster, I just don't like the idea of a car without a roof!

-Joost-

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Jun 26, 2006 8:29:33 PM

schao: Co-Pilot; Loc: CT, USA; Posts: 185, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 12, 2005; Reply to: toplad

Re: Autoweek article

Quote:
toplad said:
Quote:
RC said:
The one thing I don't understand about the Cayman is: why would people want a Cayman S and not a Boxster S with the possibility to open the top?
Is the Cayman S much lighter than the Boxster S? I doubt it.
Is it more powerful? Well, 15 HP more isn't really a significant upgrade.
Is it faster on the track? The Boxster S is already a very refined car, I don't see much room for improvement.

So why the Cayman? Honestly, I don't know.

Can we not just have one thread in which you do not attempt to undermine the Cayman again?

Stiffer, better handling car, wider power band with more power(until the new engine), better on the track and road, better image.

Hey, toplad, let's give RC a break as his comment was made over a year ago (April 2005) rather than something recent. This old thread has interesting theories as to how Porsche's game plan may unfold in coming years. I acknowledge the history and heritage of the 911, but will always choose a mid-engine coupe (vs roadster) as my preferred vehicle. I bought a Cayman S partly to show my vote to Porsche and encourage further development of the Boxster/Cayman platform, whatever it may be called in the future. Cheers.

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Jun 26, 2006 10:32:37 PM

DavidSF: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 525, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 7, 2003; Reply to: KenH

Re: Autoweek article

Quote:
KenH said:
"The one thing I don't understand about the Cayman is: why would people want a Cayman S and not a Boxster S with the possibility to open the top?"

You might just as well ask why would people buy a Carrera Coupe when they could have the cabriolet?
The fact is that a lot of people (like me) dislike soft-top cars and wouldn't go anywhere near one.
I love the Boxster but I would never buy one and I waited for years for a fixed-roof version.

Believe it or not, there a lot of people that don't care for convertibles. Me for example. I live in the San Francisco bay area which has terrific weather most of the time, and I put the top down 4-5 times a year, mainly as a novelty when I have passengers. I'd much prefer a coupe, but there wasn't one 6 years ago when I bought my car.

David

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Jun 27, 2006 6:23:48 AM

cookie monster: Senior; Loc: US , United States; Posts: 564, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 8, 2005; Reply to: Joost

Re: Cayman Turbo?

Quote:
Joost said:
RC, your story sounds logical, but I do not have enough marketing experience, or experience with porsche to be able to toell truth from fairytale. My thoughts: why doesn't porsch start a daughter-company which will make a squary (gallardo-like designwise) car, which (when succesfull will be bought (the company, not the car) by Porsche? That way it wont harm porsche if unsuccesfull... Because the 911 is such a classic, that it is almost a synonym to porsche... poele will always compare those... And it will always harm the bran porsche if (on purpose) they creat a "boring"911 to make people think differently...
-Joost-

Definitely agree very much so. This is a win win situation. Like developing a cross platform like Toureg for all related parties else (cayenne based, now even Bentley SUV will be based on it).

In the future, we might see Porsche going more and more in a different direction and this is the case since Cayenne. It had been ironic to the purists that Cayenne topped sales at Porsche year after year since debut and Porsche was never known for being outdoorsy if I could recall correctly. The mountain man in plaid shirt and overalls chopping wood really wasn't what purists envision would be the driver of a Porsche. Hence, I must agree with you in order to preserve the brand, Porsche must more or less in our lifetime preserve the 911 (the KING so to speak) but it must also strike a delicate balance to open up new horizons (Cayman, Boxster, Panamera)

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Jun 27, 2006 12:46:59 PM

EricAlain: Veteran; Loc: Paris, France , France; Posts: 1037, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2002; Reply to: cookie monster

Re: Cayman Turbo?

Here is a "plain hard fact":

Over the past 6 month (Dec-May 06), the Cayman S outsold the Boxster (S and "regular") by 3,918 units (10,883 Cayman S vs 6,965 Boxster).

Bottom line, the Cayman S is so far a great success .... even if a lot of people on this board don't like it.

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Jun 27, 2006 5:16:12 PM

percymon: Senior; Loc: Chester; Posts: 765, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 23, 2005; Reply to: EricAlain

Re: Cayman Turbo?

good news for Boxster owners then !

In the UK Boxster allocation is being cut back to cater for Caymna orders - further good news for resale of 987s and bad news for Cayman owners.

Personally - just buy the car for what it is, and worry about depreciation later

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Jun 27, 2006 5:24:24 PM

EricAlain: Veteran; Loc: Paris, France , France; Posts: 1037, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2002; Reply to: percymon

Re: Cayman Turbo?

Percymon, I quite don't get your point. Resale value has only to do with supply AND demand .... It is not because Boxster supply is shrinking in the UK that resale value will go up. If demand is falling because it is let's say diverted to the Cayman, then resale value will plunge ...

On the other hand, I 100% agree with you, Buy what you like and worry about residual value later.

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Jun 27, 2006 5:51:55 PM

dreamcar: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Hampshire , United Kingdom; Posts: 8797, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 19, 2004; Reply to: percymon

Re: Cayman Turbo?

Quote:
percymon said:
good news for Boxster owners then !

In the UK Boxster allocation is being cut back to cater for Caymna orders - further good news for resale of 987s and bad news for Cayman owners.

Unfortunately I have to tell you that here in the UK, 987 Boxster residual values are falling fast, due to an increasing number of used cars coming on the market and the recent announcement of the 3.4 Boxster S. Earlier this year, values were falling at around Pounds500 per month, and are now falling at between Pounds700 to Pounds750 per month. This is according to my OPC used car buyer and corroborated by an on-line valuation by Glass's Guide, the trade "bible". My OPC has five used 987 Boxsters on his forecourt (1 x 2.7 and 4 x 3.2) one 997 coupe and no Cayman. And this time of year is the peak demand for roadster sales.

But I guess that anyone who is paranoid about losing money, wouldn't have bought a new car (of almost any make) in the first place.

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AMG	[2022] Mercedes-AMG SL	4/23/24 1:24 PM RC	14488	225
Motor Sp.	24-Hour race Nürburgring 2018	5/25/23 10:42 PM Grant	11554	55
Porsche	Porsche Mission X Hypercar	12/3/23 8:52 AM 996FourEss	11197	63

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