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    Jun 16, 2006 7:29:57 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: W211

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    The 355 looked good, the 360 almost, but the F430 looks more like industrial art than beautiful. And in black it almost looks like a bad replica car.

    The 997 needs a touch more bumper definition to eliminate the jello factor.

    Lambos at least work their origami theme well, but Astons are the only real pretty ones now.

    Jun 16, 2006 8:01:16 PM

    Rossi
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    ...but Astons are the only real pretty ones now.



    Only problem with Aston Martin nowadays: they look all the same.

    Jun 16, 2006 8:07:55 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: Rossi

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    They might look the same, but they look good!

    Jun 16, 2006 10:28:51 PM

    RonnieC6Z
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    RonnieC6Z said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    luwalira said:
    Want the worlds most versatile sports car? Buy the 997TT
    Want a true genuin and thrilling exotic? buy the F430

    If there is a possiblity try to get a testdrive.



    The F430 isn't exotic. The 599 is, or the Murcielago.



    How can you say the F430 is not exotic. Is absoulely is, just as is the 599GTB and the Lambo Murci. Face it..Ferraris are exotics...just as Lambos are. If you don't like the F430, that is a different story. But to say it is not exotic...get a clue!



    Maybe it is an exotic to the Corvette guys, but with almost as many made per annum as the 997 Turbos, it isn't an exotic, unless you also consider the Turbo an exotic. Now what will it be?



    What will it be? Crash, you have a way of starting conversation that ends conversation! The F430 is an exotic. The Z06 is not...either is the Turbo.

    Jun 17, 2006 6:53:16 AM

    Rossi
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    They might look the same, but they look good!





    Absolutely. It's not the problem of the V8 Vantage driver, but the Vanquish owner might differ here...

    Jun 17, 2006 8:47:01 AM

    OCEAN
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    Reply to: Rossi

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Quote:
    wants them to NOT be the next GM of German car manufacturing.

    I agree but when you see a triple black turbo cab (top down) lowered with the right wheels from the rear you will know this is nothing GM could hook up . So you could have the new 997tt cab tricked out with this little number for the water for the price of a 430 spider if you are not on the list . I think I would go for the 997TT cab and boat combo ..


    Nick sell the spider cash out and get this combo , you are right there on the water ... would this not be a more fun combo

    Jun 17, 2006 1:34:50 PM

    BC
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    Reply to: temm

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Quote:
    temm said:
    Since we soon (as of next weekend) will have a Rennteam editor with a 997 Turbo and Rennteam moderators with F430s, I'm sure that they can come up with some sort of test to settle this once and for all....




    Jun 17, 2006 3:16:43 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: OCEAN

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Ocean you can trick up a 997TT Cab all you like but it still is one ugly car. The money difference between a Spider and 997TT is well worth it.

    Actually the 997TT Cab would be better to tow the boat because the boat would hid the Beetle like Cab. rear.

    Jun 17, 2006 7:25:50 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: RonnieC6Z

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Quote:
    RonnieC6Z said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    RonnieC6Z said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    luwalira said:
    Want the worlds most versatile sports car? Buy the 997TT
    Want a true genuin and thrilling exotic? buy the F430

    If there is a possiblity try to get a testdrive.



    The F430 isn't exotic. The 599 is, or the Murcielago.



    How can you say the F430 is not exotic. Is absoulely is, just as is the 599GTB and the Lambo Murci. Face it..Ferraris are exotics...just as Lambos are. If you don't like the F430, that is a different story. But to say it is not exotic...get a clue!



    Maybe it is an exotic to the Corvette guys, but with almost as many made per annum as the 997 Turbos, it isn't an exotic, unless you also consider the Turbo an exotic. Now what will it be?



    What will it be? Crash, you have a way of starting conversation that ends conversation! The F430 is an exotic. The Z06 is not...either is the Turbo.



    Okay, Ronnie. Explain this:
    When two cars have an approximately the same number of units produced annually, are similarly priced and also perform in a similar fashion. how can one be dubbed an exotic and the other one not? Only in your head, is it possible to look empirical evidence in the eye, and say: "Go to hell!"

    Jun 17, 2006 8:05:41 PM

    svtrader1
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    RonnieC6Z said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    RonnieC6Z said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    luwalira said:
    Want the worlds most versatile sports car? Buy the 997TT
    Want a true genuin and thrilling exotic? buy the F430

    If there is a possiblity try to get a testdrive.



    The F430 isn't exotic. The 599 is, or the Murcielago.



    How can you say the F430 is not exotic. Is absoulely is, just as is the 599GTB and the Lambo Murci. Face it..Ferraris are exotics...just as Lambos are. If you don't like the F430, that is a different story. But to say it is not exotic...get a clue!



    Maybe it is an exotic to the Corvette guys, but with almost as many made per annum as the 997 Turbos, it isn't an exotic, unless you also consider the Turbo an exotic. Now what will it be?



    What will it be? Crash, you have a way of starting conversation that ends conversation! The F430 is an exotic. The Z06 is not...either is the Turbo.



    Okay, Ronnie. Explain this:
    When two cars have an approximately the same number of units produced annually, are similarly priced and also perform in a similar fashion. how can one be dubbed an exotic and the other one not? Only in your head, is it possible to look empirical evidence in the eye, and say: "Go to hell!"



    Because, the turbo shares most of its parts with the other 30,000 911's per annum.

    Jun 17, 2006 8:07:12 PM

    trip
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Ocean you can trick up a 997TT Cab all you like but it still is one ugly car. The money difference between a Spider and 997TT is well worth it.

    Actually the 997TT Cab would be better to tow the boat because the boat would hid the Beetle like Cab. rear.


    Well which car is better looking is clearly an opinion thing, you are right about the 997tt being a better tow vehicle because it has over 100 more lb ft of torque.

    Jun 17, 2006 8:12:29 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    I need to jump in here.

    First the 997TT will be produced in greater numbers than the 430. Presently Porsche is estimating 6000 per year but that is all predicated on demand. It could go to 10,000. The 430 world wide is less than 4000. In the US, the 430 is very limted; up to 1000 per year.

    Second and more important, is since the 997TT looks like all other 911's, Boxster and Cayman you are really looking at close to 60,000 cars per year.

    As one car magazine said about the 911, "it seems like everyone owns one".As a result, the term exotic can never apply to the 997TT.

    Jun 18, 2006 1:26:15 AM

    Targa Tim
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Nick,

    I totally agree with your logic that your 430 is more exotic than 997TT.

    However the 997TT is a better all round sport car than 430 by a large margin. Look at the numbers you post, there are at least 6000 to 10000 997TT produced annually (due to demand as you said). The only one reason is people wants it. In contrast, the low production number of 430 is not because Ferrari doesn't want to sell more cars for profit, or to keep their customers happy as their low production car is "exotic". It is because there are not a lot of people who wants to buy it as they can clearly get a more superior car for less money.

    Don't try to argue that the price difference is worth it due to Ferrari being more exotic. I'm sure everyone who can afford a 997TT can stretch a little more for a 430. The reason they are not doing so is they don't want to pay more for a lesser car.

    Jun 18, 2006 3:03:35 AM

    Crash
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I need to jump in here.

    First the 997TT will be produced in greater numbers than the 430. Presently Porsche is estimating 6000 per year but that is all predicated on demand. It could go to 10,000. The 430 world wide is less than 4000. In the US, the 430 is very limted; up to 1000 per year.

    Second and more important, is since the 997TT looks like all other 911's, Boxster and Cayman you are really looking at close to 60,000 cars per year.

    As one car magazine said about the 911, "it seems like everyone owns one".As a result, the term exotic can never apply to the 997TT.



    So, according to your logic, do we combine the total number of Corvettes and 599's produced? They look the same, so...

    Jun 18, 2006 3:15:04 AM

    iia
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I need to jump in here.

    First the 997TT will be produced in greater numbers than the 430. Presently Porsche is estimating 6000 per year but that is all predicated on demand. It could go to 10,000. The 430 world wide is less than 4000. In the US, the 430 is very limted; up to 1000 per year.

    Second and more important, is since the 997TT looks like all other 911's, Boxster and Cayman you are really looking at close to 60,000 cars per year.

    As one car magazine said about the 911, "it seems like everyone owns one".As a result, the term exotic can never apply to the 997TT.



    So, according to your logic, do we combine the total number of Corvettes and 599's produced? They look the same, so...


    Huh? Should we count Beetle in that sense?

    Jun 18, 2006 4:00:12 AM

    DavidSF
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    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Very few Ferrari owners covet Porsche's. A great many Porsche owners covet Ferrari's. There are many reasons for this dynamic.

    Today while at the Porsche dealership to yet again get my Cayenne serviced, they had two Boxster S's each with a sign indicating take $8000 of MSRP and a 997C4 Cab. with a sign indicating take $10,000 off MSRP. The had a Cayman listed for almost $72,000 which has been sitting there for a very long time. Had I not known better I would have swore I was in a GM dealership.

    Do you see the difference between Ferrari and Porsche?



    Nick "covet" is too strong a word. Personally,

    1) if given a choice of a free Ferrari or a free Porsche, I would take the Ferrari.

    2) I don't covet a Ferrari.

    The above are not mutually exclusive. I doubt this makes any sense to your twisted psychology.

    David

    Jun 18, 2006 7:30:25 AM

    W211
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    Reply to: Targa Tim

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Quote:
    Targa Tim said:
    The reason they are not doing so is they don't want to pay more for a lesser car.



    Well said Tim.

    Jun 18, 2006 10:09:39 AM

    Crash
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    Reply to: iia

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Quote:
    iia said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I need to jump in here.

    First the 997TT will be produced in greater numbers than the 430. Presently Porsche is estimating 6000 per year but that is all predicated on demand. It could go to 10,000. The 430 world wide is less than 4000. In the US, the 430 is very limted; up to 1000 per year.

    Second and more important, is since the 997TT looks like all other 911's, Boxster and Cayman you are really looking at close to 60,000 cars per year.

    As one car magazine said about the 911, "it seems like everyone owns one".As a result, the term exotic can never apply to the 997TT.



    So, according to your logic, do we combine the total number of Corvettes and 599's produced? They look the same, so...


    Huh? Should we count Beetle in that sense?



    The 599 looks like the Corvette, or should I say the Corvette looks like the 599? Also, the Corvette has a front end that looks similar to the F360. Now we can say that the number of "Ferraris" on the streets is in the thousands and are a common occurance, if we follow the logic of "there are tens of thousands of Turbos, because all the standard 911's and Boxsters look the same".
    I just love it how everybody here is bleeding for a Corvet- whoops, Ferrari.

    Jun 18, 2006 12:13:06 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: svtrader1

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:

    When will you Americans stop applying blanket statements to the entire world? The F430 can be had for almost the same price as the 997TT here in Europe and it also has similar resale value.




    You said this same BS before. When ask specifically where in Europe, you never answered.



    Crash is absolutely right. His statements regarding pricing/availability of Ferrari cars apply to close to 100% of continental Europe (France, Germany, Italy, Sitzerland etc.).

    Jun 18, 2006 12:44:23 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:

    When will you Americans stop applying blanket statements to the entire world? The F430 can be had for almost the same price as the 997TT here in Europe and it also has similar resale value.




    You said this same BS before. When ask specifically where in Europe, you never answered.



    Crash is absolutely right. His statements regarding pricing/availability of Ferrari cars apply to close to 100% of continental Europe (France, Germany, Italy, Sitzerland etc.).


    Jun 18, 2006 1:04:36 PM

    AUM
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    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    I have seen too many Ferraris crash, break down or get left behind at the NBR to consider owning one, and the excessive look-at-me bling of the marque is unsuited toenthusiasts (like me) who prefer to attract less attention and enjoy more usable performance.

    Jun 18, 2006 1:58:52 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: AUM

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    I have seen too many Ferraris crash, break down or get left behind at the NBR to consider owning one, and the excessive look-at-me bling of the marque is unsuited toenthusiasts (like me) who prefer to attract less attention and enjoy more usable performance.



    I love being a European .

    Jun 18, 2006 3:32:02 PM

    0two9
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    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    wow you guys really go at it on this porsche vs ferrari deal, don't ya? Lemme get in my two cents.... I think think this will end up being the SAME exact deal as the last 996TT vs 360.


    They have different ways of putting the power on the road. First- let's be honest- the porsche has TWO turbo's and an inline 6 to help it create it's power- WE KNOW THAT. So in the world of naturally aspirated fans- the porsche is original in the fact that they have been doing the turbo thing for a very long time--- BUT IT STILL ISN'T NATURALLY ASPIRATED.

    The Ferrari is doing it's hp via a bit larger but still small 8 cylinder engine that revs sky high. That's the ferrari gets it's power down and has done it that way for a very long time with this type of car.

    In my world- they are both equal- simply b/c porsche has been turbo charging it's TURBO for a few decades now. It's something they do only for one of their style cars and they don't put it on everything to kick up the hp's.... (I really enjoy their gt3 a bit more b/c of it's absolute craftmanship and design).

    The other thing---- Both are sports luxury cars. They both made for sports first and then luxury- in that vein they are EXACTLY the same.

    Tranny's- the ferrari comes with a SMG, which in my opinion is still a manual but the mere fact that you can switch it to automatic means that it is equal to the porsche automatic that is faster than the porsche TT manual.-- so their tranny's are the same.

    THE DIFFERENCE
    one is 4wd the other is 2wd. This was the issue before with the 360 vs the 996TT. I believe CAR magazine editors last go around thought that the 360 was more a thing of beauty opposed to an all out dedicated sports car. And that the turbo was more a dedicated performance car opposed to an all out thing of beauty.

    They would seek tunnels to hear the 360 engine opposed to seeking tunnels to hear the turbo's engine.

    They would stand back on a sunny day and look at the turbo and realize that 360 with its lines looked sexy as hell. And although the turbo was attractive.. it just didn't give them the same jolt that the ferarri did.

    I believe the same is true today. Which would I take to the track? (well of course taking a turbo to the track would be cheating....but which would I take there?) the turbo, of course. The turbo would probably kill nearly every car out there b/c of what it can do with it's 4wd, power, and precision.

    Which would I drive everyday? The turbo. The turbo is also meant to be driven in the DAMN SNOW and rain. Of course, here in AZ it doesn't rain that much and we get no snow unless you are in Flagstaff, but over the course of my 35 min drive to work- I would rather have the turbo to flick in and out of the left lanes opposed to a ferrari everyday- why? b/c I know what would happen... I want no suprises.


    -Which would I drive on the weekend or take on a date if given the option? THE FERRARI. The Ferrari looks aggressive as hell, sounds like an f1 car, has the performance equal to that of the porsche but not quite the ability the porsche has in the right hands... but one will have people swooning over it the other will have MEN that know their cars equally looking at both.

    The passion is with the ferrari, the precision is with the 911.

    Jun 18, 2006 3:38:36 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: W211

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Quote:
    W211 said:
    Quote:
    Targa Tim said:
    The reason they are not doing so is they don't want to pay more for a lesser car.



    Well said Tim.



    Sorry Tim that dog will not hunt. Many Porsche owners in the US would love to step up to a Ferrari and are unable to do so because of availablity and affordability.

    The 997TT is a 911 with more power than other 911's. Nothing more. It is vanilla car on testosterone that buyers own to show other 911 owners their appendage is bigger than theirs.

    David are you trying to be civil to me as opposed to trying to get me banned?

    otwo9 good analysis. However, anyone who would use a 480hp high performance sport car as a daily car is either insane, delusional (look at me I am a boy racer see tubo written on the back with wing ) or suffers from an inferiority complex (look at me I am someone important I drive a Porsche TT to work).

    Jun 18, 2006 3:40:41 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: 0two9

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Quote:
    0two9 said:
    wow you guys really go at it on this porsche vs ferrari deal, don't ya? Lemme get in my two cents.... I think think this will end up being the SAME exact deal as the last 996TT vs 360.


    They have different ways of putting the power on the road. First- let's be honest- the porsche has TWO turbo's and an inline 6 to help it create it's power- WE KNOW THAT. So in the world of naturally aspirated fans- the porsche is original in the fact that they have been doing the turbo thing for a very long time--- BUT IT STILL ISN'T NATURALLY ASPIRATED.

    The Ferrari is doing it's hp via a bit larger but still small 8 cylinder engine that revs sky high. That's the ferrari gets it's power down and has done it that way for a very long time with this type of car.

    In my world- they are both equal- simply b/c porsche has been turbo charging it's TURBO for a few decades now. It's something they do only for one of their style cars and they don't put it on everything to kick up the hp's.... (I really enjoy their gt3 a bit more b/c of it's absolute craftmanship and design).

    The other thing---- Both are sports luxury cars. They both made for sports first and then luxury- in that vein they are EXACTLY the same.

    Tranny's- the ferrari comes with a SMG, which in my opinion is still a manual but the mere fact that you can switch it to automatic means that it is equal to the porsche automatic that is faster than the porsche TT manual.-- so their tranny's are the same.

    THE DIFFERENCE
    one is 4wd the other is 2wd. This was the issue before with the 360 vs the 996TT. I believe CAR magazine editors last go around thought that the 360 was more a thing of beauty opposed to an all out dedicated sports car. And that the turbo was more a dedicated performance car opposed to an all out thing of beauty.

    They would seek tunnels to hear the 360 engine opposed to seeking tunnels to hear the turbo's engine.

    They would stand back on a sunny day and look at the turbo and realize that 360 with its lines looked sexy as hell. And although the turbo was attractive.. it just didn't give them the same jolt that the ferarri did.

    I believe the same is true today. Which would I take to the track? (well of course taking a turbo to the track would be cheating....but which would I take there?) the turbo, of course. The turbo would probably kill nearly every car out there b/c of what it can do with it's 4wd, power, and precision.

    Which would I drive everyday? The turbo. The turbo is also meant to be driven in the DAMN SNOW and rain. Of course, here in AZ it doesn't rain that much and we get no snow unless you are in Flagstaff, but over the course of my 35 min drive to work- I would rather have the turbo to flick in and out of the left lanes opposed to a ferrari everyday- why? b/c I know what would happen... I want no suprises.


    -Which would I drive on the weekend or take on a date if given the option? THE FERRARI. The Ferrari looks aggressive as hell, sounds like an f1 car, has the performance equal to that of the porsche but not quite the ability the porsche has in the right hands... but one will have people swooning over it the other will have MEN that know their cars equally looking at both.

    The passion is with the ferrari, the precision is with the 911.



    Finally a common-sense post. You have stated the truth, as far as I'm concerned. None of them is BETTER per sé than the other, but they are two different beasts. I'd probably own both, if I could afford it, but for now, the 997TT is my no. 1 target. I realize I'm in the minority, but Ferrari styling doesn't do much for me. It looks good, good enough to want one, but not good enough to want one over a 997TT. Different strokes for different folks, and I think Otwo's wonderful post should signal the end of this thread.

    Jun 18, 2006 4:29:34 PM

    LoranTw
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Jun 18, 2006 5:01:43 PM

    mkultra
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    Reply to: LoranTw

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    simply put, the tt needs two turbos, all-wheel drive and wings to produce the same explosion as the F car! the Porsche has precision? have you been in a F car lately? we're not talking about the same build quality of a 308 or Testarossa! i've had more problems with my Carrera's than any Ferrari i've owned and they weren't garage queens. i think its time people relinquish old wise tales.

    Jun 18, 2006 6:18:23 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: mkultra

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Quote:
    mkultra said:
    simply put, the tt needs two turbos, all-wheel drive and wings to produce the same explosion as the F car! the Porsche has precision? have you been in a F car lately? we're not talking about the same build quality of a 308 or Testarossa! i've had more problems with my Carrera's than any Ferrari i've owned and they weren't garage queens. i think its time people relinquish old wise tales.



    You, Sir, have no idea what you're talking about. The forced induction vs. naturally aspirated argument, used in the way you've used it, belongs to fanboy boards, not an educated, high-quality board, such as Rennteam. Turbocharged vs. naturally aspirated is a decision, made by the designer. Ever heard of the GT3?

    Jun 18, 2006 6:52:55 PM

    W211
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    However, anyone who would use a 480hp high performance sport car as a daily car is either insane, delusional (look at me I am a boy racer see tubo written on the back with wing ) or suffers from an inferiority complex (look at me I am someone important I drive a Porsche TT to work).



    Respectfully disagree. Many people drive these cars for the performance and not for the reasons you stated. Look at all the AMG, M cars out there, many of them have more than 500 horsepower and do not handle half as well as a sports car.

    The beauty of the 997TT is that I can enjoy its supercar performance all the time (weather) without attracting too much attention (tickets) with relative comfort (noise).

    Inferiority complex belongs to those who drive cars for the image (look at me silly colours hear my engine loud convertibles).

    Jun 18, 2006 6:59:01 PM

    Crash
    Rennteam VIP
    Crash
    Loc: Never been to , Antarctica
    Posts: 8287, Gallery
    Registered on: Oct 17, 2002
    Reply to: W211

    Re: 997TT / Ferrari 430

    Quote:
    W211 said:
    Inferiority complex belongs to those who drive cars for the image (look at me silly colours hear my engine loud convertibles).



    So, in short, Nick Berry, driving a bright yellow, very loud, convertible Ferrari F430 Spider.
    So
     
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