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Re: Coilovers
They are excellent (and significantly better than PSS9), but they are more expensive and require periodic rebuilding. Club Sports are generally good enough for casual track use, but they have some really high-end stuff too:
www.motonsuspension.com
www.motonsuspension.com
Re: Coilovers
Quote:
andrea said:
Ohlins are n* 1 but very expensive too (you have to pay the high quality...)
Yeah, that stuff is gorgeous - here's some eye candy, but unfortunately their best model is not made as struts (requ'd for all Porsche front suspensions):
http://www.ohlins.com/car_product_guide_formula_and_sportscar.shtml
Re: Coilovers
Quote:
adrift said:
You could save money and just use springs. They will likely achieve the desired effect.
Actually, changing spring rates without changing dampers (shocks/struts) will often provide very bad results. If you just want to lower the car, you can probably find shorter springs with stock spring rates (stiffness), but if you put stiffer springs and leave the struts/shocks, you will make a mess.
Suspensions are a system and need to be tuned as a whole. Springs, struts, shocks, swaybars, bushings, tire pressure, alignment, LSD, weight of the car, etc. all affect one another - change one alone and everything will be out of balance...
One of the nice things about aftermarket coilovers is that the better ones provide variable damping, so you can adjust them to work with a variety of springs and other changes to the setup
Re: Coilovers
I didn't mean go out and randomly slap on some springs, but investigate setups other people have used for your car. For example, I put H&R springs on my M030 Boxster (a popular lowered, track setup) and it worked very well. People who got the H&R coilovers frequently complained of loud banging when their suspensions went through rapid transitions (speed bumps, railroad tracks, pot holes, etc). In my case, the springs alone did the trick, with less money, and no crashing. In my current car (RUF 3600S) RUF just replaced the stock springs with their own; no swapout of struts, so it is obviously a valid concept.
Re: Coilovers
Quote:
adrift said:
I didn't mean go out and randomly slap on some springs, but investigate setups other people have used for your car. For example, I put H&R springs on my M030 Boxster (a popular lowered, track setup) and it worked very well. People who got the H&R coilovers frequently complained of loud banging when their suspensions went through rapid transitions (speed bumps, railroad tracks, pot holes, etc). In my case, the springs alone did the trick, with less money, and no crashing. In my current car (RUF 3600S) RUF just replaced the stock springs with their own; no swapout of struts, so it is obviously a valid concept.
Adding H&R Springs to an M030 setup is not much of a stretch, since the M030 struts/shocks are valved more stiffly than the stock units on a Cayman. However, without going to a true coilover, there really isn't much chance of getting a real track setup (if this is desired), since the stock suspension is very limited in how much negative camber can be achieved (and cannot even be corner-balanced).
Adrift, I added H&R lowering springs and Bilstein HD's to my 993 and it was a nice improvement for the street (and made the ride height reasonable), but if someone is looking for a track setup, something much more serious will be required. Usually, when I see someone inquiring about coilovers, I assume they'll be running it on the track - maybe jumping to conclusion in this case?
Re: Coilovers
Quote:
Grant said:Quote:
andrea said:
Ohlins are n* 1 but very expensive too (you have to pay the high quality...)
Yeah, that stuff is gorgeous - here's some eye candy, but unfortunately their best model is not made as struts (requ'd for all Porsche front suspensions):
http://www.ohlins.com/car_product_guide_formula_and_sportscar.shtml
I don't understand. which problem with Porsche?
I know RUF put Ohlins on his tuning cars
Re: Coilovers
Hi Grant,
I guess I don't understand what you mean by "suitable for the track". That is an infinity of variance, depending on the driver's needs and preferences. The H&Rs I put on were added exactly for one reason...improved track performance. They lowered the car as desired, added the stiffness sought, and at least some additional negative camber. Coilovers, while certainly capable of being "superior" for a track setup, I do not believe are REQUIRED unless someone wants to go to those lengths. My point was merely that springs alone MAY achieve the desired improvement and save him some money. Neither of us can really know what Gauss is after, and chances are without driving each setup, Gauss won't know until he does drive them, how he likes them.
Peace. My point was just that springs are a cheaper and frequently acceptable alternative to going for coilovers, depending on personal preference. Coilovers are not always "required" to achieve a very reasonable track setup. Assuming the Cayman is "negative camber" challenged like the Boxster, even coilvers aren't going to do enough (alone) to get significant negative camber; the car will have to be "slotted".
I guess I don't understand what you mean by "suitable for the track". That is an infinity of variance, depending on the driver's needs and preferences. The H&Rs I put on were added exactly for one reason...improved track performance. They lowered the car as desired, added the stiffness sought, and at least some additional negative camber. Coilovers, while certainly capable of being "superior" for a track setup, I do not believe are REQUIRED unless someone wants to go to those lengths. My point was merely that springs alone MAY achieve the desired improvement and save him some money. Neither of us can really know what Gauss is after, and chances are without driving each setup, Gauss won't know until he does drive them, how he likes them.
Peace. My point was just that springs are a cheaper and frequently acceptable alternative to going for coilovers, depending on personal preference. Coilovers are not always "required" to achieve a very reasonable track setup. Assuming the Cayman is "negative camber" challenged like the Boxster, even coilvers aren't going to do enough (alone) to get significant negative camber; the car will have to be "slotted".
Re: Coilovers
Quote:
andrea said:Quote:
Grant said:Quote:
andrea said:
Ohlins are n* 1 but very expensive too (you have to pay the high quality...)
Yeah, that stuff is gorgeous - here's some eye candy, but unfortunately their best model is not made as struts (requ'd for all Porsche front suspensions):
http://www.ohlins.com/car_product_guide_formula_and_sportscar.shtml
I don't understand. which problem with Porsche?
I know RUF put Ohlins on his tuning cars
The TTX40 (newest and best model) only comes in shocks, not struts (yet?). Porsche uses shocks in the rear suspension, but uses McPherson struts (dampers built into the units that hold and turn the front wheels) in the front suspension.
Re: Coilovers
Quote:
adrift said:Peace. My point was just that springs are a cheaper and frequently acceptable alternative to going for coilovers, depending on personal preference. Coilovers are not always "required" to achieve a very reasonable track setup. Assuming the Cayman is "negative camber" challenged like the Boxster, even coilvers aren't going to do enough (alone) to get significant negative camber; the car will have to be "slotted".
Fair enough. Adding mild lowering springs may be just the ticket. I just wanted it known that adding aggressively firmer springs will result in a badly under-damped system, unless damper valving is changed as well.
Something like the H&R lowering springs will lower the car and provide a slightly more controlled ride, as they have progressive spring rates with fairly similar rates as the stock setup. I like them very well on my street car. For a car that I'd drive more on the track, I'd want something far more aggressive (my preference) with tunability and the ability to corner-balance and set the alignment with more negative camber (camber plates). If springs alone will satisfy all the needs in this case, then this is definitely the cheaper way to go.
However, if springs alone will not satisfy the user (either now or in the near future, once driver's skill improves), then this intermediate step ends up being much more expensive, as another alignment and installation step will be required upon upgrade.
I do see your point, however...
Re: Coilovers
Quote:
Gauss said:
Quote:
For a car that I'd drive more on the track, I'd want something far more aggressive (my preference) with tunability and the ability to corner-balance and set the alignment with more negative camber (camber plates).
So which products do you suggest?
Honestly, I don't know all the alternatives available for the Boxster/Cayman. What are your objectives? How much track/street bias do you need? Racing? DE? Street? Budget? Tires?
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