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Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Quote:
STRADALE said:
I don't get it. Is there something in the article that puts down the turbo? Because according to the numbers the manual turbo out performed the Vette which already has the reputation of being a MONSTER. And that's not even the reason for buying a car like the turbo over the Vette but it beats the car anyway. And the turbo is neck n neck w/ the Ferrari a car costin tens of thousand more. And all of this doesn't even consider all the other advantages of the turbo like all weather performance potential and THE only car in the test with rear seats. Plus the fact that the turbo is without a doubt the most comfortable car for everyday use. A car that you could just as easily sit in for hours of bumper to bumper traffic on the way to the track. It's all pretty amazing is you look at the car vs. the others w/ an open mind.
Very nice point!
I think most people are too harsh on the turbo. besides, the F-car costs 100k more. (Ferrari doesn't intentionally short supply the consumer, they just can't handle the demand...does that make them a BETTER manufacturer?) Facts are facts though, and the F-car does command a higher return on your money. I'd own one if I could. But it does cost more to operate, is more mileage sensitive and doesn't have as long of a warranty.
Granted, the resale is better-if you can get one-and there's no denying the passion, but give me break. The turbo is still a fantasic car, rather than a disappointment. Where are the real world mid-range power tests. I don't think anyone can deny that even the manual turbo (with or without sport chrono) will walk away from the Ferrari in rolling races from 30-40 mph, in say second or third gear. The car has well over 120-150 lbs/ft. torque advantange in the lower revs. 505 @ 2000 rpms.???
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
STRADALE said:
I don't get it. Is there something in the article that puts down the turbo? Because according to the numbers the manual turbo out performed the Vette which already has the reputation of being a MONSTER. And that's not even the reason for buying a car like the turbo over the Vette but it beats the car anyway. And the turbo is neck n neck w/ the Ferrari a car costin tens of thousand more. And all of this doesn't even consider all the other advantages of the turbo like all weather performance potential and THE only car in the test with rear seats. Plus the fact that the turbo is without a doubt the most comfortable car for everyday use. A car that you could just as easily sit in for hours of bumper to bumper traffic on the way to the track. It's all pretty amazing is you look at the car vs. the others w/ an open mind.
If you read the test it becomes clear that the F430 is the better car. The F430 is even more comfortable than the 997TT according to AZ...
Even if it is a "better" car according to the writers. You're looking at a car that costs $50,000 more. It BETTA be a better car. Imagine what a 997 turbo could be like w/ an additional $50,000 in aftermarket performance mods. (when they're available of course)
In terms of more being more "comfortable" I think that's crazy. Maybe in a straight line on the highway. In the F430 you're positioned for attack. But when I think of comfort I also think of every day use. Things like getting and out of the vehicle, driving position (none better than the 997 imo), backing up, parking, entering/exiting gas station driveway inclines, potholes, ac/heat, radio/cd, driving in the rain, sitting in traffic, trunk/Storage space, suspension stiffness/adjustability, just everyday stuff that you encounter that directs comfort... I'm not putting down the 430, I just ordered one and love the car but saying it's more "comfortable" than the turbo is way off base.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Quote:
STRADALE said:Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
STRADALE said:
I don't get it. Is there something in the article that puts down the turbo? Because according to the numbers the manual turbo out performed the Vette which already has the reputation of being a MONSTER. And that's not even the reason for buying a car like the turbo over the Vette but it beats the car anyway. And the turbo is neck n neck w/ the Ferrari a car costin tens of thousand more. And all of this doesn't even consider all the other advantages of the turbo like all weather performance potential and THE only car in the test with rear seats. Plus the fact that the turbo is without a doubt the most comfortable car for everyday use. A car that you could just as easily sit in for hours of bumper to bumper traffic on the way to the track. It's all pretty amazing is you look at the car vs. the others w/ an open mind.
If you read the test it becomes clear that the F430 is the better car. The F430 is even more comfortable than the 997TT according to AZ...
Even if it is a "better" car according to the writers. You're looking at a car that costs $50,000 more. It BETTA be a better car. Imagine what a 997 turbo would be like w/ an additional $50,000 in aftermarket performance mods. (when they're available of course)
In terms of more being more "comfortable" I think that's crazy. Maybe in a straight line on the highway. In the F430 you're positioned for attack. But when I think of comfort I also think of every day use. Things like getting and out of the vehicle, driving position (none better than the 997 imo), backing up, parking, entering/exiting gas station driveway inclines, potholes, ac/heat, radio/cd, driving in the rain, sitting in traffic, trunk/Storage space, just everyday stuff that you encounter that directs comfort... I'm not putting down the 430, I just ordered one and love the car but saying it's more "comfortable" than the turbo is way off base.
Ironically, would argue my 430 is more "comfortable" than my 996TTS for daily commuting....430 beats 996TTS in ride, trunk space, size of fuel tank (30 vs <17gall), roughly same ground clearance (even on SF's notorious hills
), roughly same reliability, but doesn't eat oil (unlike 996TTS' annoying need to add oil every few wks), etc...Where 430 miserably fails for daily use is lack of basic modern safety equipment (advanced and head/side airbags, crashworthiness of seat structures, etc) and dubious fuel tank placement
....and rather weak traction in rainy weather commuting... 
If F ever solved its safety weaknesses and rain-weather traction issues, would only have either 599/430 as my one daily urban commuting and wkend twisties car....but, as a realist, I suspect 997TT Tip will best impress me 95% of time and 599 about 5% of time (when in mood for a paddle-shifter and an exhaust note)....
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Quote:
devo said: besides, the F-car costs 100k more.
Good point - unfortunately only for US buyers: In Europe the F430 and an adequately equipped 997TT sell for the same price...
The price of the new GT2 will be on par with the 599GTB, I guess.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Quote:
VKSF said:
If F ever solved its safety weaknesses and rain-weather traction issues, would only have either 599/430 as my one daily urban commuting and wkend twisties car....but, as a realist, I suspect 997TT Tip will best impress me 95% of time and 599 about 5% of time (when in mood for a paddle-shifter and an exhaust note)....
Agreed
I am just of the opinion that it cannot be good for Porsche if the major remaining reason for considering a TT is wet weather performance...
There have been times when TT buyers bought the car because it was the quickest
These days are gone, many buyers will be gone sooner or later if Porsche should not complement their product range accordingly (GT2 with PSM etc.).
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Guy's do worry Von Saurma will come to the rescue. He will drive the 997TT around the Ring below 7.50 beating his 430 time by several seconds and you all will be happy again.
Mark my words this review will fade in memory when the pro-Porsche reviewers give it a test on dry streets and not in the snow and ice like most had to endure.
Stradale your wrong about the 430. It is a very relable everyday car should you want to use it as such. It is very comfortable with a more spacious passenger compartment than the TT.
BUT the most important factor is the fun factor. Every review has pretty much discounted this in the 997TT basically saying it is a 996TT but faster. The 996TT was a bore and this car will be the same.
Mark my words this review will fade in memory when the pro-Porsche reviewers give it a test on dry streets and not in the snow and ice like most had to endure.
Stradale your wrong about the 430. It is a very relable everyday car should you want to use it as such. It is very comfortable with a more spacious passenger compartment than the TT.
BUT the most important factor is the fun factor. Every review has pretty much discounted this in the 997TT basically saying it is a 996TT but faster. The 996TT was a bore and this car will be the same.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Quote:
STRADALE said:Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
STRADALE said:
I don't get it. Is there something in the article that puts down the turbo? Because according to the numbers the manual turbo out performed the Vette which already has the reputation of being a MONSTER. And that's not even the reason for buying a car like the turbo over the Vette but it beats the car anyway. And the turbo is neck n neck w/ the Ferrari a car costin tens of thousand more. And all of this doesn't even consider all the other advantages of the turbo like all weather performance potential and THE only car in the test with rear seats. Plus the fact that the turbo is without a doubt the most comfortable car for everyday use. A car that you could just as easily sit in for hours of bumper to bumper traffic on the way to the track. It's all pretty amazing is you look at the car vs. the others w/ an open mind.
If you read the test it becomes clear that the F430 is the better car. The F430 is even more comfortable than the 997TT according to AZ...
Even if it is a "better" car according to the writers. You're looking at a car that costs $50,000 more. It BETTA be a better car. Imagine what a 997 turbo could be like w/ an additional $50,000 in aftermarket performance mods. (when they're available of course)
In terms of more being more "comfortable" I think that's crazy. Maybe in a straight line on the highway. In the F430 you're positioned for attack. But when I think of comfort I also think of every day use. Things like getting and out of the vehicle, driving position (none better than the 997 imo), backing up, parking, entering/exiting gas station driveway inclines, potholes, ac/heat, radio/cd, driving in the rain, sitting in traffic, trunk/Storage space, suspension stiffness/adjustability, just everyday stuff that you encounter that directs comfort... I'm not putting down the 430, I just ordered one and love the car but saying it's more "comfortable" than the turbo is way off base.
If you add $50,000 to the 997TT, you end up with a 997GT2....which should beat the F430.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
VKSF said:
If F ever solved its safety weaknesses and rain-weather traction issues, would only have either 599/430 as my one daily urban commuting and wkend twisties car....but, as a realist, I suspect 997TT Tip will best impress me 95% of time and 599 about 5% of time (when in mood for a paddle-shifter and an exhaust note)....
Agreed
I am just of the opinion that it cannot be good for Porsche if the major remaining reason for considering a TT is wet weather performance...
There have been times when TT buyers bought the car because it was the quickest
Sure wet weather is ONE "major" reason for Porsche's superiority but that's only ONE, not the main one. The biggest reason for me anyway is the way the car shrinks around you when driving aggressive. It's hard to explain the feeling to someone that doesn't own a 997 but there's nothing else like it. The way the car transmits road feel, etc. to the driver is incredible. Steering input and the way the car relays to the driver what it is doing feels telepathic. In my Ferrari I wouldn't think about zig zagging it through traffic the way I do w/ my Porsche. With the Porsche it really feels like you can do anything. The Ferrari is fantastic w/ open twisties, on a track or long stretches of highway and looking fantastic but trying to cut and weave one in and out of traffic will give you a migrane. It's just that the Ferrari feels too big for that. Feels too long and the obstructed 3/4 and rear view is one of the main reasons for this. To really enjoy the Ferrari it's best to have open road. Love my F-Car but the P-Car can do things that I wouldn't think of in the Ferrari. And for most people they feel some of this right away. The car actually makes you/ or makes you at least feel like you're a better driver. But none of this shows on the 0 to whatever times in Auto Zeitung. IMO it's all part of what makes it the greatest everyday sports cars in the world.
As for the other thing regarding "many buyers will be gone sooner or later". I remember hearing that often with the release of the 996. It seems apparent that the opposite is true. I think it's obvious there's more interest in Porsche cars then ever before in history. You can try to fight the facts but owners will tell you they love their Porsche's. And unlike the vast majority of Ferrari owners they actually DRIVE their cars. And there's more and more of them every year. Lots more.
Sorry for the long arse post.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Quote:
nberry said:
Guy's do worry Von Saurma will come to the rescue. He will drive the 997TT around the Ring below 7.50 beating his 430 time by several seconds and you all will be happy again.
Mark my words this review will fade in memory when the pro-Porsche reviewers give it a test on dry streets and not in the snow and ice like most had to endure.
Stradale your wrong about the 430. It is a very relable everyday car should you want to use it as such. It is very comfortable with a more spacious passenger compartment than the TT.
BUT the most important factor is the fun factor. Every review has pretty much discounted this in the 997TT basically saying it is a 996TT but faster. The 996TT was a bore and this car will be the same.
We can agree to disgree about your 996 turbo opinion. Absolutely loved my 996 turbo. A "bore" it certainly was not. I did things in that car that...well I'll just leave it at that.
RE: The F430 - I never said it wasn't reliable or comfortable. I said the 997 is more comfortable.
How can you say the F430 has a "more spacious passenger compartment than the TT" ? In the front maybe so but for me "passenger"s means 3 of them. As in my wife and 2 children which means anytime I want to take the family for a ride I can. But ONLY in the turbo. This for me is probably the #2 reason beside road feel for buying a 911. And when I see magazine's giving the Vetta or F430 more points for trunk space it always makes me laugh. They either don't know there's tons of space back there or don't know how to classify it. Golf bags and all.
Fun factor for me goes to the turbo not the F430. The F430 is fun in different ways but I wonder if it didn't LOOK as sexy as is does or if it depeciated as fast, would people still consider it as much fun.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
Rossi said:Quote:
MKSGR said:
In summary the 997TT seems to be nothing special compared to competing offers: Just on par with competitors that are in the market for 2-3 years now. The days when a new Porsche TT offered superior performance seem to be over
And this exactly is the biggest compliment for the Italian (and American BTW) competitors!
Fully agreed! And a big reproach for Zuffenhausen: The next generation of competing cars from Italy will most likely be ahead of Porsche. Then Porsche can close their plants. At least as far as I am concerned,
The turbo is a great improvement over its predecessor, but, the competition is coming on so strong, Porsche, can't afford to rest on its laurels.
All this means is the consumer will have a greater selection of cars.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Quote:
svtrader1 said:Quote:
STRADALE said:
RE: The F430 - I never said it wasn't reliable or comfortable. I said the 997 is more comfortable.
How can you be so sure, when, you haven't driven both?
The turbo has the same interior as the 997 that I use everyday. I sat in it, same thing.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
That Ferrari is definitely a ringer, the last one they tested posted a 0-200kph time of 13.2, thats a full second slower. They misprinted it as 12.2 in the last test so maybe they just carried over the numbers? Anyways, there is no way the f430 is faster than the z06 so this test is very questionable. Also, AMS tested the 997 turbo 0-200kph at 12.3 and 0-100kph at 3.7. Couple this with the fact that the F430 had corsa tires and you have a completely untrustworthy and irrelevant test.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
hey guys, we have this kind of discussion very often. The 996 faced it, in all of his model range, the 997 faced it and the TT is just again facing it.
The 996 usually was compared to M3, and everybody was craying why the acceleration difference is not so big etc. Now the new M3 will come, and acceleration wise, I am sure the 997 will face huge problems. Don't compare the S cause, the normal version is the closest in the price-wise.
The TT faces his problems now against F and L and ehhhm C. What do you guys accept from this car? It will sure be much better the the 996TT, and maybe little better than his biggest competitors. But who cares, if its 0.125 seconds faster or 0.002 second slower than X. People make their desicions usually because of many reasons, sure performance is important in this price range, but on the other hand everybody always axpects Porsche to do miracles. Well this is anyway the bigest compliment a Porsche can get. On the other hand some people axpect to much, which is also a compliment, but you must stay fair. F and L just reacently joined the club of the really fast Sports Cars, Porsche always have been there with a huge advantage. Car technology is already getting to his limits. So there are many other reasons why poeple decide for a car, and this counts. Porsche is not disapointing nobody, the probelm is just that people always axpect to much, cause they also know they are the only one who is able to do so. L cars are anyway to heavy to do so, and from F cars people only expected that they drive more the 500 miles, without any problems.
So like said here before, the real winners are the guys that can afford all of these beauties.
But for me, if it must be only one, then it always will be a P. Cause you get the most of what you can get out of a super sports car in every category. I'm sure P owners know what I mean.
The 996 usually was compared to M3, and everybody was craying why the acceleration difference is not so big etc. Now the new M3 will come, and acceleration wise, I am sure the 997 will face huge problems. Don't compare the S cause, the normal version is the closest in the price-wise.
The TT faces his problems now against F and L and ehhhm C. What do you guys accept from this car? It will sure be much better the the 996TT, and maybe little better than his biggest competitors. But who cares, if its 0.125 seconds faster or 0.002 second slower than X. People make their desicions usually because of many reasons, sure performance is important in this price range, but on the other hand everybody always axpects Porsche to do miracles. Well this is anyway the bigest compliment a Porsche can get. On the other hand some people axpect to much, which is also a compliment, but you must stay fair. F and L just reacently joined the club of the really fast Sports Cars, Porsche always have been there with a huge advantage. Car technology is already getting to his limits. So there are many other reasons why poeple decide for a car, and this counts. Porsche is not disapointing nobody, the probelm is just that people always axpect to much, cause they also know they are the only one who is able to do so. L cars are anyway to heavy to do so, and from F cars people only expected that they drive more the 500 miles, without any problems.
So like said here before, the real winners are the guys that can afford all of these beauties.
But for me, if it must be only one, then it always will be a P. Cause you get the most of what you can get out of a super sports car in every category. I'm sure P owners know what I mean.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Trip, I do not agree with you that THIS F430 is a ringer. But, 12.2s is somehow fast... One other thing-with optional Pirelli Corsa's(soon available N-rated!) 997 Turbo(manual) will be around 1s faster then 1:38,1 time(1.:37,1), also test 997 Turbo was without optional LSD...
996 Turbo S did same track in 1:38,5 so-unfortunately 997 Turbo is not that much faster...
996 Turbo S did same track in 1:38,5 so-unfortunately 997 Turbo is not that much faster...
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Just one hint-American cars always get "not so good" test resluts in Auto Zeitung. I can already tell you that Vette Z06 Ring time achived by Sport Auto Super test will not be so impressive... But, Z06 Hockenheim time is excellent! Apparently Z06 do not like race track like Ring...
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Accept for the fact that it clocked a 7.429 minute lap there. 
If american cars always get "not so good" ratings, that further reinforces my belief that this magazine is untrustworthy. This test has very little credibility. I think they are using times from previous tests, does the article say otherwise? If not these figures are void because of different test conditions, etc. Have you ever seen the video of a 996 GT3RS beating a f430? The car is not as fast as they claim in this test unless its a ringer.
If american cars always get "not so good" ratings, that further reinforces my belief that this magazine is untrustworthy. This test has very little credibility. I think they are using times from previous tests, does the article say otherwise? If not these figures are void because of different test conditions, etc. Have you ever seen the video of a 996 GT3RS beating a f430? The car is not as fast as they claim in this test unless its a ringer.
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
IMHO, the winners are the owners/drivers in all this discussion. I have had F cars (348, 355, 360, 430 on order) and P cars (356, 930 993tt, 996tts, 997tt delivery July). They have all shown massive improvement with each new model. F and P have very different personalities (Italian & German) 
. They are all fun to drive. The key is how much they must advance to keep competitive. I am not waiting for the model that is 0-100km in 1.2 secs, gets 60 miles to the gallon and does the Nring in 5 minutes. Havin fun drivin all! My $.02
David
. They are all fun to drive. The key is how much they must advance to keep competitive. I am not waiting for the model that is 0-100km in 1.2 secs, gets 60 miles to the gallon and does the Nring in 5 minutes. Havin fun drivin all! My $.02David
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
I don't understand why some people say that the performance of the Turbo is disappointing.What do you expect?A 0-100km/h in 2secs?0-200km/h in 7sec?
You also have to consider that the Turbo weighs a good 1600kg.That's a bifg difference compared to the Z06 or Ferrari.The Turbo also is the least powerful of them all.
I think the performance of the 997 Turbo is amazing.
BTW which tires did the 997TT have in the test?
You also have to consider that the Turbo weighs a good 1600kg.That's a bifg difference compared to the Z06 or Ferrari.The Turbo also is the least powerful of them all.
I think the performance of the 997 Turbo is amazing.
BTW which tires did the 997TT have in the test?
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Quote:
trip said:
Accept for the fact that it clocked a 7.429 minute lap there.
I don't accept the 7:42 because it's hardly a fact.
I haven,'t seen a video of a GT3 beating the F430 in a straight line but a least the Porsche kept up with the Ferrari.
Look here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoIEgypMLbU&search=F430
Re: 997 Turbo comparison test in new Auto Zeitung
Quote:
Walter said:
I don't understand why some people say that the performance of the Turbo is disappointing.What do you expect?A 0-100km/h in 2secs?0-200km/h in 7sec?
You also have to consider that the Turbo weighs a good 1600kg.That's a bifg difference compared to the Z06 or Ferrari.The Turbo also is the least powerful of them all.
I think the performance of the 997 Turbo is amazing.
BTW which tires did the 997TT have in the test?
I don't get it either. Besides, it will be the 2 seat, rear wheel drive, price similar Porsche GT2 (not the awd 4 seat turbo costing $50k less) that will be the more direct competitor to the F430.
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