Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: 996/997 engine failures - Page3

Jun 14, 2006 5:31:36 AM

MikeB: Newbie; Loc: SF Bay Area; Posts: 28, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 5, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: 996/997 engine failures

RC,

Not sure what you're trying to say here - i.e. "well known "seal" issue... but nothing out of the ordinary". I think you'd have to admit that a problem as well known and discussed as this is probably a little out of the ordinary.
Given that Porsche has updated (and hopefully improved) the RMS design as I indicated in my earlier post (as well as easyrider_911), it probably indicates that they are acknowledging the problem and trying to fix it. But look, it's not the end of the world as one might believe if you spend enought time on internet forums, and I think that's what you and many have been saying on this thread. Hey, maybe Porsche got it right and this whole tedious issue will fade away (not commenting on blown engines since I have no experience with that).
BTW, to Porsche's credit, they did the right thing and covered the entire cost of fixing the RMS leak even though my 02 996 is out of warranty

At least in my case that demonstrates a good deal of integrity and attention to customer satisfaction.
Now if the damn thing will just hold out until I order and take delivery of a 997 GT3...

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Jun 14, 2006 8:42:54 AM

pierre: Veteran; Loc: there , Switzerland; Posts: 1192, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 7, 2002; Reply to: MikeB

Re: 996/997 engine failures

FWIW, I had my 996 Turbo's engine replaced at 217'000km. Oil leak. Would have been fixable, but at a rather high cost. For slightly more, I got a new engine (including nex turbos, new exhaust) with 2 years warranty.

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Jun 14, 2006 1:28:20 PM

WAY: Rennteam Master; Loc: Melbourne, Australia; Posts: 3344, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: Kevin H. in Atl.

Re: 996/997 engine failures

Quote:
Kevin H. in Atl. said:

The M97 comes in 3.6L and 3.8L displacements (997 and 997S)

According to the 997 PET Catologue, the base 997 engine is an M96.05 rated at 235kw.
The 997S engine is an M97.01 rated at 261kw.

The 996 was rated at 235kw, the 997 is rated at 239kw. Sounds like we have no resolution on this. So does anyone know for sure if the 997 3.6 is M96 or M97? RC?

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Jun 14, 2006 3:37:08 PM

Silver Bullet: Veteran; Loc: Canada; Posts: 1126, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2004; Reply to: WAY

Re: 996/997 engine failures

The 997 3.6 is basically the M96 engine, whether one calls it that or not.

Having said that, I'm quite sure that it's officially called M96, and I think there have been posts here (well, at least one) from folks owning the 997 whose paperwork attests to that.

That's good 'nuff for me.

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Jun 14, 2006 9:36:00 PM

Thom: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 65, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 28, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: 996/997 engine failures

Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
Thom said:
I've been told that Porsche dealers are doing a lot of engine replacements. The failures have something to do with crankshaft vibration or warping--I'm not sure of the details. Has anyone heard this before?

By WHOM have you been told that? Because regarding the 997, this is crap. Regarding the 996, there have been engine replacements but nothing too much out of the regular quota compared to other manufacturers. Mostly 996 Carrera engines of course, the GT3/Turbo engines are a different type of engine.

"This is crap?" Nice. As a Porsche owner, I came here with a genuine concern. I wanted some answers and this forum provided them. Some people have argued that Forums "magnify" or exaragrate a problem; I think 63 replies paint a pretty clear picture. There is a problem with these engines, but not enough of a problem to justify a redesign-at least not from the manufacturers point of view. I will sell my car before the warranty expires.

I promised earlier in the thread that I'd speak again with the person who brought this to my attention. We traded messages for a couple of days, but just spoke. When I mentioned this Forum, the first thing he said was, "Don't use my name." He doesn't want to lose his job, but he reaffirmed what he told me and said the rear main seal leakage is a consequence of a design flaw, it is not the problem. The rear main seal becomes out of round, apparently because of crankshaft vibration. The dealers do not know what the real problem is because these engines get returned for an exchange engine. They do not get rebuilt. He pointed out, again, that the GT3 and Turbos are bulletproof. He loves Porsches too, he has no reason to make this up.

R.C. , and others who seem agitated by this-I am not arguing that there is or isn't a problem. I'm simply trying to learn what other people know; that's what this forum is for, isn't it?

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Jun 15, 2006 12:47:55 AM

MAVERICK: Veteran; Loc: Cincinnati, OH (USA) , United States; Posts: 1145, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2004; Reply to: Thom

Re: 996/997 engine failures

Quote:
Thom said:
He pointed out, again, that the GT3 and Turbos are bulletproof.

At one time, Pierre's "bulletproof" engine was a testament of Porsche reliability/durability/German engineering. Until it sprung a leak.

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Jun 15, 2006 8:12:35 AM

chapse: Junior; Loc: NewEngland US; Posts: 98, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 22, 2006; Reply to: Thom

Re: 996/997 engine failures

The scariest part of this thread is that it exists at all, i.e. not to many people writing in that they have a bullet proof engine, sort of seems the opposite is true. There are also a fair amount of other vehicle manufacturers making 300+ hp high rev engines that seem to have no issues in much less expensive cars. The thread makes no sense from the point of view that it had to be started in the first place.

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Jun 15, 2006 9:04:33 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: chapse

Re: 996/997 engine failures

With all due respect chapse, I have to say that your post is founded in needless paranoia. Collective scare-mongering is not constructive.

The point has been made before so many times (almost to death) that (1) the internet exaggerates and magnifies an issue by many times because only the minority of people with a problem announce it whereas the vast majority of people who have no such problem quietly carry on enjoying their car (i.e. since when should one have to disprove a phenomenon?) How many people actually pipe up to say that their car is flawless? Only some, and even then, such statements get 'drowned out' by the woefully disproportionate attention given to the few who do have problems; and (2) statistically the number of cars suffering this problem is doubtless very, very low. (A problem should be proven beyond doubt on a null hypothesis basis before it is statistically sound). All manufacturers have a level of warranty work they have to deal with and Porsche's reliability is not only far from abnormal for a sports car (or any car for that matter) but it is most probably far superior (if the recent JD Power surveys are to be relied upon).

Nothing and no one is perfect. Porsche does well in terms of reliability and should not IMHO receive exaggerated criticism. For me, the key issue is not whether there is a problem but rather how well the manufacturer/dealership network fixes it.

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Jun 15, 2006 9:45:55 AM

Canari: Junior; Loc: France; Posts: 65, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: 996/997 engine failures

Quote:
For me, the key issue is not whether there is a problem but rather how well the manufacturer/dealership network fixes it.

+1

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Jun 15, 2006 11:08:28 AM

chapse: Junior; Loc: NewEngland US; Posts: 98, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 22, 2006; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: 996/997 engine failures

Quote:
With all due respect chapse, I have to say that your post is founded in needless paranoia. Collective scare-mongering is not constructive.

The point has been made before so many times (almost to death) that (1) the internet exaggerates and magnifies an issue by many times because only the minority of people with a problem announce it whereas the vast majority of people who have no such problem quietly carry on enjoying their car (i.e. since when should one have to disprove a phenomenon?) How many people actually pipe up to say that their car is flawless? Only some, and even then, such statements get 'drowned out' by the woefully disproportionate attention given to the few who do have problems; and (2) statistically the number of cars suffering this problem is doubtless very, very low. (A problem should be proven beyond doubt on a null hypothesis basis before it is statistically sound). All manufacturers have a level of warranty work they have to deal with and Porsche's reliability is not only far from abnormal for a sports car (or any car for that matter) but it is most probably far superior (if the recent JD Power surveys are to be relied upon).

Nothing and no one is perfect. Porsche does well in terms of reliability and should not IMHO receive exaggerated criticism. For me, the key issue is not whether there is a problem but rather how well the manufacturer/dealership network fixes it.

With all due respect back, you pay $100K for a car and hope the engine does not blow and thats not the key issue, only hope it will be covered by the dealer and the company, WTF kind of logic is that. Maybe the issue is exagerrated on the internet, but, there sure seems to be a fair amount of people talking about their problems. Guess we now have two groups on this thread, the paranoid, and the Ostrich's who stick their head in the sand and pretend there is no issue. Interesting thread though, reminds me of my ex wife, kept telling myself how great she was, look great, rode great, but under the hood, UGH. traded her for a new model

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Jun 15, 2006 12:15:17 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: chapse

Re: 996/997 engine failures

I am certainly not pretending there is no issue at all. I was merely saying it is not a common one which one should get worried over.

You have no 100% certainty that your car will never develop a problem no matter which manufacturer made your car and no matter whether you spent $10k or $100k. If you buy a car in your own name, YOU bear the risk of anything that happens to it. If it gets hit on the road then you can only claim back YOUR loss from the insurance company IF you fall within the terms of the insurance policy.

Similarly, if your car develops a fault (even with something as fundamental as an engine), then it is YOUR risk. Either you can get it repaired under warranty or you pay for the repairs from your own pocket.

You said "there sure seems to be a fair amount of people talking about their problems". How many cases of the RMS problem have occurred on a 997 series car? If there are any, the numbers are so few as to be statistically insignificant. This was my point.

As I explained in my earlier post of 13/6/06, the RMS problem (which I have never pretended does not exist at all) nevertheless only affects the 986 and 996 (watercooled only). There is no body of evidence suggesting that this problem is afflicting the 997.

In any event, the RMS design has now been updated with a design based on the Cayenne which solves this problem. Why then is there a reason to worry about this issue in relation to NEW cars going forward?

I couldn't possibly comment on your analogy towards women or your ex-wife. That wouldn't be proper.

However, if you are suggesting that a Porsche appears only from the outside to be a fine car but is somehow flawed on the inside, then you are seriously mistaken. A Porsche 911 IS the real deal. It would not have been successful for over 43 years if this were not the case.

Anyone who has driven a 911 knows why it is so special. It is an outstanding sportscar and is the benchmark by which all other road-going sportscars are measured. That speaks for itself.

Anyhow, it's a lovely sunny afternoon here in London. England will be playing Trinidad & Tobago in the Fifa World Cup later this afternoon. There are few things in life that are really worth getting hot and bothered about!

Let's not get our knickers in a twist over this. I wish you well whether you drive a 911 or not.

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Jun 15, 2006 12:50:10 PM

chapse: Junior; Loc: NewEngland US; Posts: 98, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 22, 2006; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: 996/997 engine failures

Well your right, its sunny here as well, by the way though I do have a few data points on air cooled 911 engines, I rebuilt a 2.2L and 2.7L in my garage, took about 2 months each ( I worked only on week ends on them), insides were extremely clean, replaced the valves crank bearings, and rings, pistons looked great. What was interesting was how easy they actually are to work on, the way they dissamble, parts are exceedingly expensive, but found it easier than working on say a non boxer engine. I would have no other car other than a 911, its just this engine issue on the 997 (or maybe non issue) gets me torgued to a few hundred foot pounds.

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Jun 17, 2006 6:09:00 PM

Silver Bullet: Veteran; Loc: Canada; Posts: 1126, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2004; Reply to: chapse

Re: 996/997 engine failures

This thread mentions "engines blowing" for which I've found no reasonable evidence as a systemic problem and the RMS leak, which is a well known issue that has been done to death, as if they are the same problem. There is so much confusion regarding thee issues, that it's clear that many posters don't really know what they're talking about.

This is just a bunch of inflammatory BS as far as I'm concerned.

I'd take this whole thread with a grain of salt and move on.

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Jun 18, 2006 3:05:20 PM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: chapse

A positive review

Quote:
chapse said:
The scariest part of this thread is that it exists at all, i.e. not to many people writing in that they have a bullet proof engine, sort of seems the opposite is true. There are also a fair amount of other vehicle manufacturers making 300+ hp high rev engines that seem to have no issues in much less expensive cars. The thread makes no sense from the point of view that it had to be started in the first place.

I'm on my 3rd 996/997 model and have not had one single problem with any of the 3 engines.

If you want to be paranoid go ahead but do it with an early BMW M3 (latest generation to be clear) where there was more than enough justification for being paranoid.

You might also want to check where Porsche stands with J.D. Power compared to other car companies.

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Jun 18, 2006 9:34:15 PM

beltar: Veteran; Loc: belgium , Belgium; Posts: 1232, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 15, 2005; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: A positive review

I'm getting a little mad reading all this negative BS; it's my 4th porsche (965/993/996/997S) and ihad respectively 90k/93k/99k and now 18k on the teller and did never had a problem (except RMS on the 996). I'm a very "enthusiast" driver (cfr 997S uses 15.9 liter /100km)though.
I'm sure i can break a p engine in no time by driving to the red-zone with a cold engine...but drive the car softly 3500rev when cold for app 9km (6miles) and i thinck you're on the way for a troublefree engine then.
Same story for my early alfaromeo's, they also had lots of oil to warm up... but once good heated you could go as far and as long as you would...

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Jun 19, 2006 6:23:52 AM

chapse: Junior; Loc: NewEngland US; Posts: 98, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 22, 2006; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: A positive review

Quote:
Le Chef said:
Quote:
chapse said:
The scariest part of this thread is that it exists at all, i.e. not to many people writing in that they have a bullet proof engine, sort of seems the opposite is true. There are also a fair amount of other vehicle manufacturers making 300+ hp high rev engines that seem to have no issues in much less expensive cars. The thread makes no sense from the point of view that it had to be started in the first place.

I'm on my 3rd 996/997 model and have not had one single problem with any of the 3 engines.

If you want to be paranoid go ahead but do it with an early BMW M3 (latest generation to be clear) where there was more than enough justification for being paranoid.

You might also want to check where Porsche stands with J.D. Power compared to other car companies.

Art Linkletter said it best, "children say the darndest things"

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Jun 20, 2006 2:38:02 AM

michaeltw: Newbie; Loc: NY; Posts: 2, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 1, 2005; Reply to: chapse

Re: A positive review

My intermediate shaft failed at almost exactly 10K miles in my '05 997S.

It really doesn't change my attitude towards the car though. Problems happen and the good definitely outweighs the bad.

If not for the engine, this is the most reliable and trouble free car I've owned. But I'm a long term Range Rover driver so that's not saying too much!

Here are some shots from the incident:
http://www.roverhaul.com/galleries/911engine

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Jun 20, 2006 2:44:32 PM

MAVERICK: Veteran; Loc: Cincinnati, OH (USA) , United States; Posts: 1145, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2004; Reply to: beltar

Re: A positive review

Quote:
beltar said:
a p engine in no time by driving to the red-zone with a cold engine...but drive the car softly 3500rev when cold for app 9km (6miles) and i thinck you're on the way for a troublefree engine then.
Same story for my early alfaromeo's, they also had lots of oil to warm up... but once good heated you could go as far and as long as you would...

1) Some engines, for example the CGT and Celica GTS, have a cold engine rpm limit.

2) Not having an engine oil temp. gauge in my car, for 8 years I led myself to believe engine oil will warm to operating temperature in 6 miles (above freezing) and 10 miles (below freezing). Actually, from the BITOG forums, it seems it takes, on average, approx. 30 minutes (guessing above freezing) to warm up. I timed a city trip yesterday which took about 30 minutes of city/highway driving from door to door. I have concluded it's impractical to wait that long before allowing myself to explore high rpm's.

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Jun 21, 2006 10:27:54 PM

Thom: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 65, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 28, 2003; Reply to: beltar

Re: A positive review

Quote:
beltar said:
I'm getting a little mad reading all this negative BS; it's my 4th porsche (965/993/996/997S) and ihad respectively 90k/93k/99k and now 18k on the teller and did never had a problem (except RMS on the 996). I'm a very "enthusiast" driver (cfr 997S uses 15.9 liter /100km)though.
I'm sure i can break a p engine in no time by driving to the red-zone with a cold engine...but drive the car softly 3500rev when cold for app 9km (6miles) and i thinck you're on the way for a troublefree engine then.
Same story for my early alfaromeo's, they also had lots of oil to warm up... but once good heated you could go as far and as long as you would...

I find it kind of amusing that you think one RMS failure is acceptable. A Porsche is supposed be able to take a beating. Yes, you should warm it up, but a modern car should not fail.

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Jun 21, 2006 11:26:44 PM

chapse: Junior; Loc: NewEngland US; Posts: 98, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 22, 2006; Reply to: Thom

Re: A positive review

Quote:
Thom said:
Quote:
beltar said:
I'm getting a little mad reading all this negative BS; it's my 4th porsche (965/993/996/997S) and ihad respectively 90k/93k/99k and now 18k on the teller and did never had a problem (except RMS on the 996). I'm a very "enthusiast" driver (cfr 997S uses 15.9 liter /100km)though.
I'm sure i can break a p engine in no time by driving to the red-zone with a cold engine...but drive the car softly 3500rev when cold for app 9km (6miles) and i thinck you're on the way for a troublefree engine then.
Same story for my early alfaromeo's, they also had lots of oil to warm up... but once good heated you could go as far and as long as you would...

I find it kind of amusing that you think one RMS failure is acceptable. A Porsche is supposed be able to take a beating. Yes, you should warm it up, but a modern car should not fail.

I also find it amusing that lots of people here think its a minimal problem, does not happen much, etc, etc, so how does this work, you pay 100K, and its a roll of the dice if your engine will fail after some unknown number of miles. Sure makes for enjoyable ownership, wondering when and if the motor will fail. This is not negative or internet gossip, its a fact, my C2S has had no issues yet,
but will the motor fail

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Jun 22, 2006 12:07:27 AM

amjf088: Co-Pilot; Loc: Toronto, Canada , Canada; Posts: 256, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 6, 2005; Reply to: chapse

Re: A positive review

1672 thread views to date (these types of threads always draw out the ghastly curiousity in us!)

I counted seven instances described in this thread of either "blown engine"/RMS/or some other big engine problem that occured to either the poster or to an aquaintance that they had direct knowledge of. i.e. most of us are just yabbing.

Problems are real and they do happen (to all cars BTW), but that is about all I would conclude here.

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Jun 22, 2006 1:15:40 AM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: chapse

Re: A positive review

Quote:
my C2S has had no issues yet,
but will the motor fail

Of course it will: all motors will fail sometime. But if you choose to see the glass half empty you have a pretty sad life ahead of you. I would bail out now while the going's good and buy a Camry if I were you.

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Jun 22, 2006 1:30:49 AM

Jim48: Senior; Loc: Virginia, USA; Posts: 639, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 24, 2005; Reply to: chapse

Re: A positive review

Quote:
chapse said:
Quote:
Thom said:
Quote:
beltar said:
I'm getting a little mad reading all this negative BS; it's my 4th porsche (965/993/996/997S) and ihad respectively 90k/93k/99k and now 18k on the teller and did never had a problem (except RMS on the 996). I'm a very "enthusiast" driver (cfr 997S uses 15.9 liter /100km)though.
I'm sure i can break a p engine in no time by driving to the red-zone with a cold engine...but drive the car softly 3500rev when cold for app 9km (6miles) and i thinck you're on the way for a troublefree engine then.
Same story for my early alfaromeo's, they also had lots of oil to warm up... but once good heated you could go as far and as long as you would...

I find it kind of amusing that you think one RMS failure is acceptable. A Porsche is supposed be able to take a beating. Yes, you should warm it up, but a modern car should not fail.

I also find it amusing that lots of people here think its a minimal problem, does not happen much, etc, etc, so how does this work, you pay 100K, and its a roll of the dice if your engine will fail after some unknown number of miles. Sure makes for enjoyable ownership, wondering when and if the motor will fail. This is not negative or internet gossip, its a fact, my C2S has had no issues yet,
but will the motor fail

I think everyone needs to put the engine failure problems into perspective.

I don't have data for the 2006 calendar year, but for 2005, Porsche sold approximately 18,000 911's and Boxsters in the United States, which may have accounted for at least 1/3 of their total sales, more likely about 35%. Porsche - based upon the 2004/2005 annual report, which doesn't cover the start of the 2006 model year production - produced about 48,000 911's and Boxsters in that model year. Because of the success of the 911, bump that up to about 50,000 total for the full 2005 calendar year.

Perfect quality in manufacturing is usually denoted as six sigma quality by managers and engineers, which means about 3.4 defects per million units (any engineer or production type managers please correct me if I'm wrong). That kind of quality is achievable for extremely large production volumes, not for a small volume producer like Porsche.

But suppose that even 5% of the boxer-engined cars have bad engines. That would mean, in each model year, that 2,500 cars would have bad engines. That's an extremely high number. If, as some have said, that a replacement engine goes for about $12,000 (which I doubt - I had a 1992 Ford Taurus SHO with the Yamaha double-overhead cam V-6, and that cost $14,000 for a replacement in the 1990's). What we are talking about is U.S. dollars 30 million per year in replacement costs. This level of defects would take a real chunk out of Porsche's profits, and it would pay them to improve quality rather quickly. To me, such a high rate of estimate defects is just not believable. Even a 2% defect rate on the engines (1,000 failures per year on that specific model year would cost them $12 million a year, just for those new models. If you add in the warranty costs for previous years (in the U.S., the warranty is for four years), Porsche would have astronomical engine warranty costs.

My point in all this is that the economics of engine failures dictate that Porsche reduce the failure rate drastically, and I believe they have done just that, if they have needed to. Otherwise, they'd be facing bankruptcy instead of making record profits and getting the number one quality award for initial owner satisfaction (the first 90 days of ownership) from J.D. Power in the U.S.

Yes, there are some engine failures, as with any car manufacturer. And for those Rennteamers who have had problems, I can sympathize with you.

But Porsche's actual numbers have to be quite low. Complaints on web sites seem to get magnified into catastrophically large numbers, when in fact they are relatively small. Making a swag (scientific, wild-*ssed guess), I would venture that at most only 0.2 - 0.4 percent of the engines have problems (namely 100 - 200 engines per year, at most). Frankly, that's darned outstanding quality for such a small producer, and its more believeable than some of the wild claims made by some others.

Jim

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Jun 22, 2006 8:38:53 AM

chapse: Junior; Loc: NewEngland US; Posts: 98, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 22, 2006; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: A positive review

Quote:
Le Chef said:
Quote:
my C2S has had no issues yet,
but will the motor fail

Of course it will: all motors will fail sometime. But if you choose to see the glass half empty you have a pretty sad life ahead of you. I would bail out now while the going's good and buy a Camry if I were you.

No way, Im selling my 997S, and buy an arial atom, much more speed, much better in the twisties, and I dont have to wash it. PLUS i can keep it in the house, it will fit through my front door.

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Jun 22, 2006 6:44:59 PM

964C2: Expert; Loc: Dallas, TX , United States; Posts: 1825, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: chapse

Re: A positive review

Good article in the latest issue of Total 911, with pictures and detailed explantion of the types of engine failures....the article states that the majority of non-RMS failures, in other words real engine failures, were with early 996 3.4 engines, 1998 through 2000.

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BMW M	2022 BMW M5 CS	4/8/24 1:43 PM Ferdie	20159	140
AMG	G63 sold out	9/15/23 7:38 PM Nico997	17079	120
AMG	[2022] Mercedes-AMG SL	4/23/24 1:24 PM RC	14427	225
Motor Sp.	24-Hour race Nürburgring 2018	5/25/23 10:42 PM Grant	11518	55
Porsche	Porsche Mission X Hypercar	12/3/23 8:52 AM 996FourEss	11194	63

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