Crown

Yesterday I took my 964 Carrera 4 to one of the local ''  Porsche 911 guru ''  . We have two in the region, with clients coming from all of Europe to have their cars restored and modified  . One does cars up to the 964 and the other one does cars up to the Carrera 3.2  . 

The one doing up to the 964 does mostly racing models and he had a few beasts on the table , ranging from RSR from the 70'/ 80's s  to a 904 .

I asked him if he could transform my 964 into something light , responsive , fun  and still road legal .

After some discussion he advised me to sell it as it is and get a 1974 Carrera 2.7   ( not RS ) as that would be the most enjoyable car for me to drive on public road . Screaming engine, very light and a chassis super precise . He would also upgrade it as to make it the best possible for me .   He has one, that needs some restoration . Price would be steep , but could be an investment .

Now I have to think ....... It would be a big jump for me .  He reckons that once I' ll drive the 2.7 I would get rid of more then one of my Porsche .

Any thoughts from people who might have owned one ?

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 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Gnil:

Yesterday I took my 964 Carrera 4 to one of the local ''  Porsche 911 guru ''  . We have two in the region, with clients coming from all of Europe to have their cars restored and modified  . One does cars up to the 964 and the other one does cars up to the Carrera 3.2  . 

The one doing up to the 964 does mostly racing models and he had a few beasts on the table , ranging from RSR from the 70'/ 80's s  to a 904 .

I asked him if he could transform my 964 into something light , responsive , fun  and still road legal .

After some discussion he advised me to sell it as it is and get a 1974 Carrera 2.7   ( not RS ) as that would be the most enjoyable car for me to drive on public road . Screaming engine, very light and a chassis super precise . He would also upgrade it as to make it the best possible for me .   He has one, that needs some restoration . Price would be steep , but could be an investment .

Now I have to think ....... It would be a big jump for me .  He reckons that once I' ll drive the 2.7 I would get rid of more then one of my Porsche .

Any thoughts from people who might have owned one ?

--

 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

 

Are you into classic Porsche 911? 

The only classic 911 I could think of getting would be an original 964 RS. I am not into classic/vintage cars. At all. 

Depends on what you want but you know yourself best, so it is difficult to give you the right advice here. 

All I know is that vintage cars always have a certain appeal when you drive and look at them but this appeal fades fast if you are actually into driving dynamically and fast. Modern cars are the better choice for that. I didn't say that they are necessarily always more fun but they are better.

Your decision I'm afraid. Stupid question: Which car do you enjoy driving more? The 964 C4 or the 991 GT3 RS?  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

I have discovered slow steaming - and surely the "FUN" factor is equal if not even better with older cars because the Limit is much lower and you don't need to drive like a luny to get to it's Limit. It's clearly the future for me unless the track is yr home.where you drive the most. You have much more Driver interaction than on any modern car - period.

I love the looks of the RS2.7, and I think there is no shame in creating a replica, or something inspired by the classic 901 looks. Design wise, I would stay clear of the G-series looks, but that is a personal preference.

I can't comment on driving behavior, but one thing to concern with driving classics is the safety; I would love to drive a classic 901 or 550 or 356, but I would be concerned driving these kind of cars in normal traffic on a regular basis... Safety has come such a long way in the last 50 years!

Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys

BjoernB:

I have discovered slow steaming - and surely the "FUN" factor is equal if not even better with older cars because the Limit is much lower and you don't need to drive like a luny to get to it's Limit. It's clearly the future for me unless the track is yr home.where you drive the most. You have much more Driver interaction than on any modern car - period.

True but also worse performance and you need to compromise. If driving becomes stressful...

I could imagine owning a vintage car but not as an exclusive toy. This would bore me to death. 

Last but not least, there is another point. Safety. I remember when I visited Alois Ruf a long time ago and took a tour of his new Porsche workshop (he opened an official Porsche maintenance garage). There was a nice vintage 911 (don't remember the type anymore but one of the first...) and when I admired it and told him how much fun it is to drive, he looked at me and told me the story of someone who died in such a car at only 40(!) kph per hour. What had happened? The steering column or parts of the steering wheel (don't remember anymore the details) penetrated his chest/heart during an accident. These vintage cars are amazing to look at and driver involvement is certainly superior to modern cars but when it comes to safety...well...just imagine my wife in her Cayenne S Diesel crashing into a Carrera 2.7. 

I know, I know...shit happens in life but I kind of prefer modern cars for various reasons and safety is one of them.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Gnil:

Yesterday I took my 964 Carrera 4 to one of the local ''  Porsche 911 guru ''  . We have two in the region, with clients coming from all of Europe to have their cars restored and modified  . One does cars up to the 964 and the other one does cars up to the Carrera 3.2  . 

The one doing up to the 964 does mostly racing models and he had a few beasts on the table , ranging from RSR from the 70'/ 80's s  to a 904 .

I asked him if he could transform my 964 into something light , responsive , fun  and still road legal .

After some discussion he advised me to sell it as it is and get a 1974 Carrera 2.7   ( not RS ) as that would be the most enjoyable car for me to drive on public road . Screaming engine, very light and a chassis super precise . He would also upgrade it as to make it the best possible for me .   He has one, that needs some restoration . Price would be steep , but could be an investment .

Now I have to think ....... It would be a big jump for me .  He reckons that once I' ll drive the 2.7 I would get rid of more then one of my Porsche .

Any thoughts from people who might have owned one ?
--

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

The 911 2.7 with the 911/83 engine (i.e. the RS engine) is really a great 911. The engine torque and power delivery which is a feature of the MFI (Mechanical Fuel Injection) are really that good. It is a world apart from a normal G model or a 964.  An average car today starts at around 180-190 K Eur and for top cars bordering 300 K Eur. They are rare  and even more so the Targa ones. I have driven it many times and would highly recommend it . It is the closest you can get to the 2.7 RS.  Steering feel MFI engine response, ligthness is something that you just don`t have in any modern 911 but you need to like vintage and the drawbacks that come with them.  

Some inspiration Gnil: (not sure about this particular firm called "cool & vintage", which sounds tacky beyond words, but tou catch my drift)

https://vimeo.com/128026936

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Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys

Now that I have some more seat time in the 3.6 Turbo, I realized driving FUN and driving FAST can be 2 different thing.

On some cars, like the GT3RS, it is FUN and FAST. 

On the 3.6 Turbo, it is FUN, skipping the FAST part, but I don't care about the fast part anyway.

Can't really say I have had a car that's FAST but not FUN, maybe my old Alpina B7, Audi S8.

Gnil:

He reckons that once I' ll drive the 2.7 I would get rid of more then one of my Porsche .

Any thoughts from people who might have owned one ?

I love the early cars.  The fantastic manual steering and light weight (as well as the screaming smaller displacement motors with Carbs or Mechanical fuel injection) is very different experience from a 964 (much sharper and responsive than even 964RS).

If you drive a really good example, I think it will win you over!

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

I too think that driving a classic car (a Porsche or another one for that matter) can be a real eye opener. I'd say give it a shot. Indeed I don't think it makes sense trying to make a 964 C4 into something it is not.

1992 Mercedes-Benz W124 500E / 2003 BMW M3 CSL (sold) / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2014 BMW-Alpina B3 biturbo Touring Allrad

Porker:

I too think that driving a classic car (a Porsche or another one for that matter) can be a real eye opener. I'd say give it a shot. Indeed I don't think it makes sense trying to make a 964 C4 into something it is not.

Yeah, that's true... So it will be a win win win in the end anyway; sell the 964, get a 2.7 customized. If you do it well, you can always sell the 2.7 with a profit if you don't like it as much as you anticipated...

Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys

I never look at cars as investment, I just drive shit out of them. Been in your situation, even thinking and buying parts to backdate my 993 race car to 75 rsr. at the end, I believe Im not touching my 964 and leave it as it is. But with MFI and displacement to 3.9, it would be beast anyways. The same I gonna do with 993 engine. Fun part is there,just I have to pull it out. But maybe if I were in your shoes, I would backdate 964 and do the conversion on engine.

I don't love the 2.7 engine, way too many problems but if you're building a car it's easy enough to do something different with the engine unless you are looking for pure originality. If that's the case I would say go a bit earlier and get a 2.0S or 2.2S.

I"m paraphrasing an old saying here but you get one of these older 911s (as in 3.2 Carrera and earlier) and you can feel driving over a coin with the steering wheel. Do the suspension up right and you can tell if the coin is heads or tails...

These aren't "fast" cars compared to modern ones, but they can still hustle and they are so very very visceral. Tiring to drive for a long time but so much more rewarding for short runs. 

No they aren't as safe as new cars but they (talking about 911s here) are still built like tanks. I"ll always remember my father writing off a 3.2 Carrera cab when he hit a railroad rail that had been driven 16 feet down into the ground with 4 feet above ground to protect a sign that kept getting run over (how stupid was the railway for doing that?!?). He lost control going around 70-80kph and hit it right at his door next to his thigh. He had to crawl out the passenger side as the drivers door wouldn't open but neither occupant even had a bruise. That's pretty safe all things considered. 

Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

RC:

 

Are you into classic Porsche 911? 

I have a 964  , so yes, I kind of have a foot in there .  I do find my 964 to be too modern 

The only classic 911 I could think of getting would be an original 964 RS. I am not into classic/vintage cars. At all. 

That would be top on my list . Show me one with a reasonable price and I ll buy it immediately . But that ship has sailed . Prices are way too high . ( between 200 k  and more then 300 k ) 

I want some feeling when I drive on open roads , around my area . Even, when I just drive to work or to the city center . I don't get that with modern cars .

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

BjoernB:

I have discovered slow steaming - and surely the "FUN" factor is equal if not even better with older cars because the Limit is much lower and you don't need to drive like a luny to get to it's Limit. It's clearly the future for me unless the track is yr home.where you drive the most. You have much more Driver interaction than on any modern car - period.

 That's where I am at . I love my 991 GT3 RS , but I can only really enjoy it on the track .

And It is the same with a GT4 , and probably would be with an R . A little bit more involving but still too good and easy when driving within speed limits . You need to go fast to really have fun . Just changing gear manually is not enough . It has to be a bit challenging  .

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Joost:

I love the looks of the RS2.7, and I think there is no shame in creating a replica, or something inspired by the classic 901 looks. Design wise, I would stay clear of the G-series looks, but that is a personal preference.

 

I would not do a replica . I take the 1974 Carrera 2.7  ( G series because of the engine )  . It has the exact same engine as the 2.7 RS . I would only upgrade suspensions , help the engine breath a bit better , change the steering wheel ..... minor changes  . 

This car is supposed to be sharp , have a very precise steering , scream like hell ..... Just metal beauty and noise 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

m4ever:

 

The 911 2.7 with the 911/83 engine (i.e. the RS engine) is really a great 911. The engine torque and power delivery which is a feature of the MFI (Mechanical Fuel Injection) are really that good. It is a world apart from a normal G model or a 964.  An average car today starts at around 180-190 K Eur and for top cars bordering 300 K Eur. They are rare  and even more so the Targa ones. I have driven it many times and would highly recommend it . It is the closest you can get to the 2.7 RS.  Steering feel MFI engine response, ligthness is something that you just don`t have in any modern 911 but you need to like vintage and the drawbacks that come with them.  

Did you and the guy I talked to exchanges emails ?  You basically said exactly what he told me and what made me interested 

-  2.7 engine  exactly the same as the RS 2.7

- Mechanical Fuel Injection that provides instant response 

- Rasor sharp steering feel 

- Under 1100 kg 

And the guy was confident I would be as fast up a tight local mountain pass then with the 991 RS 

What would the drawbacks be ? 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Whoopsy:

Now that I have some more seat time in the 3.6 Turbo, I realized driving FUN and driving FAST can be 2 different thing.

As one can not drive fast on public road , there is not much fun left  in the modern cars . The only fun is keeping the tiger with a tight leas  and listing to his growling 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Grant:

he fantastic manual steering and light weight (as well as the screaming smaller displacement motors with Carbs or Mechanical fuel injection) is very different experience from a 964 (much sharper and responsive than even 964RS).

 

--

 

 

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

 

 

Exactly what I would be looking for . The screaming of the smaller engine that you can rev . My 964 is too linear and slow to rev ...

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Porker:

 I don't think it makes sense trying to make a 964 C4 into something it is not.

Specially mine that is in British green with a beige/tan interior and the very rare wood option on the dash board 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

martini964:

 But maybe if I were in your shoes, I would backdate 964 and do the conversion on engine.

That would be too difficult to have approved by the inspection people . They have become anal . Any mode needs official approvals ..... I will not go down that road, unless for smaller details or parts I can change back easily 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Mithras:

I don't love the 2.7 engine, way too many problems 

What kind of problems ? The guy told me about the injections canals getting stucked if the car sits too long ...

I"m paraphrasing an old saying here but you get one of these older 911s (as in 3.2 Carrera and earlier) and you can feel driving over a coin with the steering wheel. Do the suspension up right and you can tell if the coin is heads or tails...

And you also build up muscles in the process 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Gnil:

Mithras:

I don't love the 2.7 engine, way too many problems 

What kind of problems ? The guy told me about the injections canals getting stucked if the car sits too long ...

I"m paraphrasing an old saying here but you get one of these older 911s (as in 3.2 Carrera and earlier) and you can feel driving over a coin with the steering wheel. Do the suspension up right and you can tell if the coin is heads or tails...

And you also build up muscles in the process 

The manual steering in my lightweight 911 was lighter than the power steering in the GT4 (at anything above parking speeds) with about 10x more feel...

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

My first 911 was a 77 with a 2.7. They are not the same motor as the RS. Unless you have the MFI RS motor any run of the mill 2.7 is not the same. Even the 1974. There is a reason those cars cost so much. There is no free lunch. That said the old cars are a blast to drive and plenty safe. I would trust them over a Mustang GT500 in a high speed autobahn crash any day. I also drove plenty of long stretches in the old G series cars. Including several runs across to Montreal. I always drove the wheels off them and they are much more reliable than the newer water cooler cars. Except for my 996 which was indestructible over more than 100k miles. 

Built a 2.7 RS  

1986 BMW 325i Cabrio Alpine Weiss/Black Leather - German Spec 
2006 Mercedes-Benz CLS 500 Black/Black Leather 

Ex: ''91 BMW 535i, '91 BMW 318i, '89 BMW 525i, '74 Mercedes-Benz 280E, '87 BMW 325is, '86 BMW 325e, '05 Ford Focus ZX4 S, '85.5 Porsche 944

Gnil:

 

What would the drawbacks be ? 

I think the one limiting factor of these older cars are tires.

Maybe hard to find decent tires in their dimensions.

And compare with modern sport cars, the tire sizes of these older cars will be too narrow and hard to compete.

Tim

2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe;  2016 911 GTS Club Coupe;  2015 Macan S
 

Grant:

The manual steering in my lightweight 911 was lighter than the power steering in the GT4 (at anything above parking speeds) with about 10x more feel...

I never drove any 911 older then 1987 .   What I am looking for is exactly what you describe . So only muscle built when parking 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Leawood911:

My first 911 was a 77 with a 2.7. They are not the same motor as the RS. Unless you have the MFI RS motor any run of the mill 2.7 is not the same. Even the 1974. 

The car that mechanic  has , is a 1974 Carrera 2.7 and it has the same engine as on the RS .  Only difference is the max HP on the RS is at a lower range ( 5100 rpm ) 

 2687 cm3 , 210 HP at 6300 rpm , 255Nm at 5100 rpm  

 They produced 2277 cars . From 1975 they added extra insulation to the inside and the engine bay . 

Do not confuse it with the 911 2.7  ( not carrera )  that had 165 HP and was  '' mass'' produced from 1974 to 1977  and has only 165 HP , 235 Nm, 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

sounds delicious - go for it

Gnil if you have the opportunity to do it, do it. It is a marvellous experience.  Besides the  2.7 Carrera with the 911/83 engine is the last series production application of the mechanical fuel injection. This 911 will always represent a milestone in Porsche history .

With regards to the drawbacks, in my personal opinion  it is the driver`s effort. Those cars require permanent concentration as there are no safety nets; braking takes longer, the lift off oversteer is always a menace and you always really need to drive the car whether at 60 km/h or 180 km/h. On the wet you need to pay even more attention. Said that , this involvement, creates also amazing fun even at legal speeds . Yes safety is an issue as it is with any vintage car .  Furthemore in your country you have the perfect setting to enjoy a vintage 911 .