Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day - Page1

May 12, 2006 8:00:24 PM

SoCalHoosier: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 896, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 13, 2003; Reply to: fritz

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

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fritz said:
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Dock (Atlanta) said:
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SoCalHoosier said: When will you look at Porsche objectively and let them know... they must go back to racing.

Racing has nothing to do with what kind of presentation the 996 and 997 Turbo brings to the table.

Which could be why Porsche also offers 911 GT2 and GT3 models for anyone who REALLY wants a car with a racing heritage?

Good idea... now do you think Porsche could spend some of their profits on side air duct vents that don't look like they came from the old Ford Mustangs?

Expensive cars should look and feel like expensive cars.

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May 12, 2006 8:02:24 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12681, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: dreamcar

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

Quote:
dreamcar said:
Here it is, guys...

Thank you very much for the scans!

Great read, great cars!

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May 12, 2006 8:02:49 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Uber-porker

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

Quote:
Uber-porker said:
Some of the comments regarding the 997TT's banality are simply amazing.I think people are taking the Porsche/Porsche Turbo products for granted. They are now routinely described as ho-hum, unstylish, boring or "passionless". Now let's image for a minute, our world if there wasn't a Porsche and never had been. Then today a upstart new, unknown car company (perhaps from Jupitor) introduced the 997TT to the market. I think the aclaim from the automotive world would be unbelievable, unrestricted and unremitting. Especially if order at non-existing Porsche price points. It would probably be deemed the best car ever and the gold standard for the new world automotive order. Some things aren't appreciated until they're gone. This from a guy whose never owned one and is waiting for delivery this June.

Let's say Japan instead of Jupiter. It's nearer home.

The Honda NSX comes to mind. Technically, it was a fantastic effort for a company with no history of building exotic sportscars. The sportscar world showed its gratitude by taking fewer than 5 cars a day off Honda's hands at some times during its life.

At the time, Honda was involved in F1 racing.

I'll leave it to Nick to tell you how poor the 911 TT's acceptabilty on the market is. (I think that 6000 cars/annum is the figure he mentioned recently).

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May 12, 2006 8:04:09 PM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: fritz

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

Quote:
fritz said:
Which could be why Porsche also offers 911 GT2 and GT3 models for anyone who REALLY wants a car with a racing heritage?

Racing heritage had nothing to do with why I bought a 996 Turbo.

The issue here is why the Turbo is soft and isolated, and I offer that it is *not* because of Porsche's lack of racing. It doesn't take racing to understand "edgy" and "connected". Porsche has understood "sports car" for a long time. They have intentionally dumbed down the Turbo, and they would have doe this even if they had been racing continually since the 911 was designed.

Racing programs are for advertisement and bragging...these days it doesn't take racing as a platform for great car design and reliability. Test protocols can be designed, and along with track testing (in isolation from "racing") a great sports car can be brought to the public.

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May 12, 2006 8:08:21 PM

SoCalHoosier: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 896, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 13, 2003; Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

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Dock (Atlanta) said:
Quote:
fritz said:
Which could be why Porsche also offers 911 GT2 and GT3 models for anyone who REALLY wants a car with a racing heritage?

Racing heritage had nothing to do with why I bought a 996 Turbo.

The issue here is why the Turbo is soft and isolated, and I offer that it is *not* because Porsche has not been racing. It doesn't take racing to understand "edgy" and "connected". Porsche has understood "sports car" for a long time. They have intentionally dumbed down the Turbo, and they would have doe this even if they had been racing continually since the 911 was designed.

Racing programs are for advertisement and bragging...these days it doesn't take racing as a platform for great car design and reliability. Test protocols can be designed, and along with track testing (in isolation from "racing") a great sports car can be brought to the public.

It all boils down to liability issues in the hands of the average fat-pocketed Porsche buyer. Porsche lost too many customers with their 930s.

Porsche's marketing execs: Let them go fast. Keep them safe. They'll come back for more if they're still alive or can still walk.

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May 12, 2006 8:15:22 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: SoCalHoosier

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

Quote:
SoCalHoosier said:
... now do you think Porsche could spend some of their profits on side air duct vents that don't look like they came from the old Ford Mustangs?
Expensive cars should look and feel like expensive cars.

Well, if you have any ideas on how the function of the side air ducts could be improved over the current ones, maybe you should be trying to sell them to Porsche.

If, on the other hand you just want the side air ducts to look expensive without any regard for improving their function, then I suspect that Porsche's interest in your ideas might be quite limited. It's my impression that, to a certain extent, both Porsche and Honda share the philosophy that "form follows function".

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May 12, 2006 8:20:47 PM

SoCalHoosier: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 896, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 13, 2003; Reply to: fritz

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
SoCalHoosier said:
... now do you think Porsche could spend some of their profits on side air duct vents that don't look like they came from the old Ford Mustangs?
Expensive cars should look and feel like expensive cars.

Well, if you have any ideas on how the function of the side air ducts could be improved over the current ones, maybe you should be trying to sell them to Porsche.

If, on the other hand you just want the side air ducts to look expensive without any regard for improving their function, then I suspect that Porsche's interest in your ideas might be quite limited. It's my impression that, to a certain extent, both Porsche and Honda share the philosophy that "form follows function".

Thank you fritz for your insights and defense of Porsche... I'm glad I get to participate in Porshe's marketing studies about how to improve their cars. At least I get to place my 2 cents.

As for your comments about form and function...
Let's see what you will say when Porsche REPLACES the vents with the ones I am speaking of. It doesn't take a large brain to understand that the current vents are in place for current cost considerations.
Ruf didn't seem to have a problem with his design... his cars go faster don't they?

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May 12, 2006 8:28:56 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: fritz

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
Uber-porker said:
Some of the comments regarding the 997TT's banality are simply amazing.I think people are taking the Porsche/Porsche Turbo products for granted. They are now routinely described as ho-hum, unstylish, boring or "passionless". Now let's image for a minute, our world if there wasn't a Porsche and never had been. Then today a upstart new, unknown car company (perhaps from Jupitor) introduced the 997TT to the market. I think the aclaim from the automotive world would be unbelievable, unrestricted and unremitting. Especially if order at non-existing Porsche price points. It would probably be deemed the best car ever and the gold standard for the new world automotive order. Some things aren't appreciated until they're gone. This from a guy whose never owned one and is waiting for delivery this June.

Let's say Japan instead of Jupiter. It's nearer home.

The Honda NSX comes to mind. Technically, it was a fantastic effort for a company with no history of building exotic sportscars. The sportscar world showed its gratitude by taking fewer than 5 cars a day off Honda's hands at some times during its life. At the time, Honda was involved in F1 racing.

I'll leave it to Nick to tell you how poor the 911 TT's acceptabilty on the market is. (I think that 6000 cars/annum is the figure he mentioned recently).

I wholeheartedly agree. I believe we are all same saying the same thing. Porsche produced this car to cater to as many buyers as possible. It will sell like hotcakes but most that buy it will not have any idea of what an "exciting" sport car is really like. All they know is they own a PORSCHE turbo and it will beat just about anything on the street.

From a market and sales perspective, Porsche has hit a home run with the 997TT.

Of course, we still don't know how this will impact the rest of the 997"s sales though I have noticed many who own 997's and S's are dumping them to buy a Turbo.

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May 12, 2006 8:29:05 PM

svtrader1: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 821, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2003; Reply to: fritz

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

Quote:
fritz said:

It's my impression that, to a certain extent, both Porsche and Honda share the philosophy that "form follows function".

It's just a side air vent, not exactly rocket science here. It's more about form following the bottom line. Cheap, cheap, cheap.

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May 12, 2006 8:46:37 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

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nberry said:
I wholeheartedly agree.

'Snot fair! You can't suddenly start to agree with my posts, Nick. Just think what that could do to my reputation.

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nberry said:
Of course, we still don't know how this will impact the rest of the 997"s sales though I have noticed many who own 997's and S's are dumping them to buy a Turbo.

Well, that really should cause Porsche to cry all the way to the bank and accelerate the early demise you have been predicting for the company for some time.

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May 12, 2006 8:51:08 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: svtrader1

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Quote:
fritz said:

It's my impression that, to a certain extent, both Porsche and Honda share the philosophy that "form follows function".

It's just a side air vent, not exactly rocket science here. It's more about form following the bottom line. Cheap, cheap, cheap.

Funny you should say that. I do tend to think of aerodynamics as being one branch of rocket science.

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May 12, 2006 9:24:34 PM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: fritz

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Quote:
fritz said:

It's my impression that, to a certain extent, both Porsche and Honda share the philosophy that "form follows function".

It's just a side air vent, not exactly rocket science here. It's more about form following the bottom line. Cheap, cheap, cheap.

Funny you should say that. I do tend to think of aerodynamics as being one branch of rocket science.

Examine a 430/612/575...even casual inspection reveals many "cheap"/cheap-feeling touches, incl door pulls, door locking mechanisms, various buttons/switchgear, etc.....and, perhaps most interestingly, F decided to "save" its limited, costly first-gen side/head airbags just for the 100/yr 599s, rather than the other 5000/yr 430/612s.....

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May 12, 2006 9:26:05 PM

igzaklee: Senior; Loc: BH , United States; Posts: 797, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 16, 2003; Reply to: svtrader1

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

fantastic work, dreamcar

rennteam's two big (latest) hitters battle it out!

thnx for the post~~

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May 12, 2006 9:30:05 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59592, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: fritz

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

From the article: ...Fastest all condition drive car ever made...

There are aspects to the way this car behaves on the road that defy normal description.
You see, the 997 Turbo is unquestionably the best sports car the world has ever seen.
That much is non-negotiable. It does things normal cars can't.
It isn't the fastest car against the watch, but in terms of net available performance the 997 Turbo marks a new beginning.

997 Turbo...nothing more to add.

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May 12, 2006 9:37:28 PM

SoCalHoosier: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 896, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 13, 2003; Reply to: WBH

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

Quote:
VKSF said:
Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Quote:
fritz said:

It's my impression that, to a certain extent, both Porsche and Honda share the philosophy that "form follows function".

It's just a side air vent, not exactly rocket science here. It's more about form following the bottom line. Cheap, cheap, cheap.

Funny you should say that. I do tend to think of aerodynamics as being one branch of rocket science.

Examine a 430/612/575...even casual inspection reveals many "cheap"/cheap-feeling touches, incl door pulls, door locking mechanisms, various buttons/switchgear, etc.....and, perhaps most interestingly, F decided to "save" its limited, costly first-gen side/head airbags just for the 100/yr 599s, rather than the other 5000/yr 430/612s.....

Just about every car on the planet will have "cheap" touches...
The problem is that Porsche uses cost cutting moves in designing MAIN visual components to their cars.

This should please Porsche:
If it were available as an option I would pay 5K more so they would do the vents right.

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May 12, 2006 9:42:14 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

Quote:
RC said:
It isn't the fastest car against the watch, but in terms of net available performance the 997 Turbo marks a new beginning.

"The more things change, the more they stay the same". I remember reading similar comments on introduction of the 996 TT.

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May 12, 2006 10:31:12 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: WBH

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

Quote:
VKSF said:
Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Quote:
fritz said:

It's my impression that, to a certain extent, both Porsche and Honda share the philosophy that "form follows function".

It's just a side air vent, not exactly rocket science here. It's more about form following the bottom line. Cheap, cheap, cheap.

Funny you should say that. I do tend to think of aerodynamics as being one branch of rocket science.

Examine a 430/612/575...even casual inspection reveals many "cheap"/cheap-feeling touches, incl door pulls, door locking mechanisms, various buttons/switchgear, etc.....and, perhaps most interestingly, F decided to "save" its limited, costly first-gen side/head airbags just for the 100/yr 599s, rather than the other 5000/yr 430/612s.....

Does anyone have an idea of how many parts the 997TT shares with the 997, Cayman and Boxster?

RC, there is no doubt it is one fast car. The best way to describe the 997TT is "fast transportation". Nothing more.

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May 12, 2006 11:39:29 PM

SoCal Alan: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Orange County , United States; Posts: 7268, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
VKSF said:
Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Quote:
fritz said:

It's my impression that, to a certain extent, both Porsche and Honda share the philosophy that "form follows function".

It's just a side air vent, not exactly rocket science here. It's more about form following the bottom line. Cheap, cheap, cheap.

Funny you should say that. I do tend to think of aerodynamics as being one branch of rocket science.

Examine a 430/612/575...even casual inspection reveals many "cheap"/cheap-feeling touches, incl door pulls, door locking mechanisms, various buttons/switchgear, etc.....and, perhaps most interestingly, F decided to "save" its limited, costly first-gen side/head airbags just for the 100/yr 599s, rather than the other 5000/yr 430/612s.....

Does anyone have an idea of how many parts the 997TT shares with the 997, Cayman and Boxster?

RC, there is no doubt it is one fast car. The best way to describe the 997TT is "fast transportation". Nothing more.

How do you know? I assume you've never driven a 997TT. I assume you've never driven a 997, either.

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May 12, 2006 11:48:31 PM

trip: Expert; Loc: Bay Area California , United States; Posts: 1691, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 11, 2006; Reply to: nberry

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
VKSF said:
Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Quote:
fritz said:

It's my impression that, to a certain extent, both Porsche and Honda share the philosophy that "form follows function".

It's just a side air vent, not exactly rocket science here. It's more about form following the bottom line. Cheap, cheap, cheap.

Funny you should say that. I do tend to think of aerodynamics as being one branch of rocket science.

Examine a 430/612/575...even casual inspection reveals many "cheap"/cheap-feeling touches, incl door pulls, door locking mechanisms, various buttons/switchgear, etc.....and, perhaps most interestingly, F decided to "save" its limited, costly first-gen side/head airbags just for the 100/yr 599s, rather than the other 5000/yr 430/612s.....

Does anyone have an idea of how many parts the 997TT shares with the 997, Cayman and Boxster?

RC, there is no doubt it is one fast car. The best way to describe the 997TT is "fast transportation". Nothing more.

Considering you have never driven the car, why do you think you can describe the car better than anyone else. You say, "fast transportation, nothing more." Autocar, a respected car magazine describes it as "The best sports car on the planet period." Hmmmm....trust the biased and unfounded opinion of Nberry, the one person who probably hates Porsche more than anyone on this board, or the opinion of an unbiased automotive journalist. Tough decision. I don't understand why people are saying the car is dumbed down. The reviews so far have praised the car as the best sports car in the world, and all but one have said it is fun and exciting to drive and Autocar says the back end will step out easily with a bit of throttle.

If this car bores you you either don't have a pulse or aren't driving it hard enough. I will cite again the article in which the journalist thought it was somewhat dull until Walter rohl took him through a single lane road around a curve at the ridiculous speed of 138 mph.

This woke him up and he later wrote "if you drive it right it will rip your head off." Sounds pretty exciting to me. Yes the exhaust note is pretty bland. If this is the only way you judge driver ecitement than you are a poser not an enthusiast. I am betting most people who buy the car will leave it stock, but those of us who apreciate the tune of that beautiful boxer six will install aftermarket versions. Every car has flaws and the 997tt is no exception, but the words perfect and best keep coming up in its reviews. Also, I have never before seen a review of any car in which they deemed it the best sports car in the world. I think people should stop nitpicking until they actually drive the d@mn thing.

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May 12, 2006 11:54:56 PM

SoCalHoosier: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 896, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 13, 2003; Reply to: trip

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

trip-

No offense but...
Let us know when you're old enough to buy one yourself.
After driving them around a few years and getting the boy-racer side out of your system, let us know what you think of what Porsche used to build and what they build now with regards to their current competition.

When I hear you say what you say, you sound much like I did as a teen before I owned my first Porsche. Wide-eyed and easily awed... trust me... it's been really dumbed down since then, not to mention less exotic as each year goes by.

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May 13, 2006 12:02:32 AM

trip: Expert; Loc: Bay Area California , United States; Posts: 1691, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 11, 2006; Reply to: SoCalHoosier

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

Quote:
SoCalHoosier said:
trip-

No offense but...
Let us know when you're old enough to buy one yourself.
After driving them around a few years and getting the boy-racer side out of your system, let us know what you think of what Porsche used to build and what they build now with regards to their current competition.

When I hear you say what you say, you sound much like I did as a teen before I owned my first Porsche. Wide-eyed and easily awed... trust me... it's been really dumbed down since then, not to mention less exotic as each year goes by.

I know how to drive, have driven the 996tt, 997s, and many boxters along with bmw's, audis, etc. I'm no wide eyed doe. I have lived and breathed cars since as long as I can remember. I know I don't own the car, but I do know how to read, and since we are all basing our opinions on what car mags have written I believe my opinion is a valid as the next. Yes it probably isn't as exciting as a Ferrari, but is faster, handles better and stops quicker.Just because it does all of this with less drama does not necessarily mean its dumbed down. The autocar article even said it had better steering feel than the 599. Thats pretty important to me. Much more so than how loud the car gets or how twitchy and "raw" a car feels. To each his own I guess.

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May 13, 2006 12:19:17 AM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: SoCalHoosier

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

Quote:
SoCalHoosier said:
trip-

No offense but...
Let us know when you're old enough to buy one yourself.
After driving them around a few years and getting the boy-racer side out of your system, let us know what you think of what Porsche used to build and what they build now with regards to their current competition.

When I hear you say what you say, you sound much like I did as a teen before I owned my first Porsche. Wide-eyed and easily awed... trust me... it's been really dumbed down since then, not to mention less exotic as each year goes by.

Well written!

Trip though the writer slobbered over the 997TT he acknowledged that the 996 was really good and the difference isn't all the great. Thus my experience in driving the 996TT gives me some context to compare.

No one is claiming that the 997TT isn't a terrific sport car. It is. But there are intangibles to every car which either raises them to an exalted level or just being good. Reading many of the reviews, the journalist all seem to be pointing to an intangible that deals with passion, exciteability and a rush which the 997TT is lacking. It was the identical problem with the 996TT.

Make no mistake they will sell a ton of them but I will not be one of the buyers. Like one of the poster's (Turbo or S. Cal

) for what the 997TT is offering a MB SL65 or an M6 would give me the same driving experience for my driving abilities. To REALLY enjoy the 997TT you need to employ W. Rohrl and have him drive you.

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May 13, 2006 12:39:57 AM

Alan(NJ): Pilot; Loc: Paramus NJ USA; Posts: 403, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 29, 2002; Reply to: nberry

What's your guess on the actual price of a 599 in CA

For those who aren't "on the list". I just saw a 430 spider with 200 miles on it with a $330K asking price. I'm guessing that a 599 with 200 miles on it will approach Carrera GT used prices. For that kind of money, it better be exalted.

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May 13, 2006 12:56:13 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59592, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Alan(NJ)

Re: What's your guess on the actual price of a 599 in CA

Quote:
Alan(NJ) said:
For those who aren't "on the list". I just saw a 430 spider with 200 miles on it with a $330K asking price. I'm guessing that a 599 with 200 miles on it will approach Carrera GT used prices. For that kind of money, it better be exalted.

This is ridiculous, honestly. 330 k for a used F430 Spider? You get them over here in Germany slightly below or at MSRP.

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May 13, 2006 12:56:47 AM

trip: Expert; Loc: Bay Area California , United States; Posts: 1691, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 11, 2006; Reply to: Alan(NJ)

Re: What's your guess on the actual price of a 599 in CA

Nick I appreciate the way you stay so civil despite the critisism of your car taste by myself and others.

I hope you don't take any of it personally. I agree that their are intangibles that make a car great however I keep coming back to the "best sports car ever" line. That is definitely saying alot.

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May 13, 2006 1:06:06 AM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: What's your guess on the actual price of a 599 in CA

Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
Alan(NJ) said:
For those who aren't "on the list". I just saw a 430 spider with 200 miles on it with a $330K asking price. I'm guessing that a 599 with 200 miles on it will approach Carrera GT used prices. For that kind of money, it better be exalted.

This is ridiculous, honestly. 330 k for a used F430 Spider? You get them over here in Germany slightly below or at MSRP.

Well I guess German are not enamoured with Italian sport cars like we are in the US. There really are good reasons for our love of the Spider. Many also love German sport cars and Porsche is getting rich producing them.

They just are not as highly prized as the Ferrari.

The 599 is going to command huge premiums. I now am seriously reconsidering my position about buying one. I may order one.

Trip your welcome. If there is one thing to learn about chat sites is DO NOT personalise any thread. it is only a car.

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May 13, 2006 1:17:41 AM

trip: Expert; Loc: Bay Area California , United States; Posts: 1691, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 11, 2006; Reply to: nberry

Re: What's your guess on the actual price of a 599 in CA

Very true. But what a car

You'll be happy to know that your 430 spider trounced the gallardo spider in both car and driver and motor trend. I'll have to admit I'd rather have an f430 spider than a turbo cab. In a convertable you really need that sound and sensory overload. I am a hard top fan myself however (cgt being the exception) and in that category there is one car for me. Turbo.

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May 13, 2006 3:16:20 AM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

Quote:
Dock (Atlanta) said:
Quote:
Uber-porker said:
Some of the comments regarding the 997TT's banality are simply amazing.

The major problem I see in the 996 Turbo (that seems to have been continued to an even higher degree in the 997 Turbo), is "driver isolation".

I think that a sports car should provide as much connection as possible to the driver...the car should not just be an appliance for speed.

Porsche has continued to push the Turbo farther away from "sports car" and closer to "Grand GT". Not to say there is anything wrong with a GT-cruiser...as long as there is still a sports car available. But this isn't the case with the 997 Turbo...no "sports car" variant of the car is available right now.

What Porsche has done with the 996/997 Turbo makes sense if their goal was to sell Turbos to as many people as possible. A sedated car is more attractive to a wider range of buyers. Too bad...

First, dreamcar, thx for posting the Autocar scans....much appreciated, as it's usu Fri/Sat before my newsstand rcvs the issue.

Based on reviews I've seen to-date, 997TT has consistently won strong praise for steering feel and brake pedal feel (esp w/PCCB)....but I've seen several lukewarm/negative comments re: 599 steering/brake pedal feel. We still don't have instrumented tests of 997TT Tip w/SC and PCCB vs 599 F-1 w/CCM, esp 60-150MPH and N-ring nos. on street tires to draw more hard data-based conclusions vs dubious mfr claims.....so not really sure which, if any, is a "hard" sportscar vs a "soft", easily marketable GT car

Know at least 3-4 guys (aside from self) who are getting early copies of both well-spec'd 997TT and 599......sometimes one just needs to personally verify/contradict all these magazine impressions/speculation w/real-world subjective, back-to-back testing in hands of the mere amateur drivers who can actually afford to acquire these toys...or annually disposable daily transportation devices in some cases.....

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May 13, 2006 3:42:08 AM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

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nberry said:
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VKSF said:
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fritz said:
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svtrader1 said:
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fritz said:

It's my impression that, to a certain extent, both Porsche and Honda share the philosophy that "form follows function".

It's just a side air vent, not exactly rocket science here. It's more about form following the bottom line. Cheap, cheap, cheap.

Funny you should say that. I do tend to think of aerodynamics as being one branch of rocket science.

Examine a 430/612/575...even casual inspection reveals many "cheap"/cheap-feeling touches, incl door pulls, door locking mechanisms, various buttons/switchgear, etc.....and, perhaps most interestingly, F decided to "save" its limited, costly first-gen side/head airbags just for the 100/yr 599s, rather than the other 5000/yr 430/612s.....

Does anyone have an idea of how many parts the 997TT shares with the 997, Cayman and Boxster?

RC, there is no doubt it is one fast car. The best way to describe the 997TT is "fast transportation". Nothing more.

If 599 shared some crumple zone design/fuel tank placement design/airbag systems, etc w/the lowly, mass-produc 997TT/S65, I'd prob overlook the various Fiat-like interior parts and consider driving a 599 as my only car (I much prefer 599's 28gall tank to 997TT's 18gall tank for SF-SilicVy commuting).....

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May 13, 2006 5:33:42 AM

Damian: Senior; Loc: Pa, USA; Posts: 646, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 10, 2005; Reply to: nberry

Re: Autocar - Two Amazing Cars, One Unforgettable Day

Quote:
nberry said:
for what the 997TT is offering a MB SL65 or an M6 would give me the same driving experience for my driving abilities. To REALLY enjoy the 997TT you need to employ W. Rohrl and have him drive you.

Which publication's press credential is Nick holding to have allowed him such extensive 997TT pre-release driver's seat time ?!

I'm all in favor we hype this 'mundane' 997TT label, the wait lists are horrendous!

Who else here is dumping their 997C2/4/S for the Turbo? So far I know of 1.) STRADALE. I thought there would be a glut of turn-ins by now. A month from launch the dealers in the five states nearest me have next to nil pre-owned 997/S inventory...private owner listings are virtually nonexistent, Traderonline.com 2005 pre-owned 997 averages 3 cars for sale per state. All of this and the GT3 release- should be an interesting summer.

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What's your guess on the actual price of a 599 in CA

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