Crown

Whoopsy:

Well people don't top of their gas tanks every night before they go to bed, they only refuel it when needed........

Of course not, because who would like to have a petrol station at home? Wouldn't it on the other hand be quite practical if it automatically filled up your cars each night the number of liters consumed that day? Then you would not need to take that tour to the petrol station and fill up each second week.... This is how convenient it is owning an EV.

Which is like every few days or weeks depending on how much a car is driven. Unlike a electric car which is practically empty after every drive........

No, it is never empty. On those days that you plan to drive more than 350km there are Supercharges. EV-drivers never run low on energy and to be honest never heard of someone who got stuck on the side of the road because of empty battery.

I mean, the risk is higher that the engine stall or having a flat tire...

When the 918 comes home, it doesn't always get the same parking spot where the charger is located, not a problem, it doesn't need to be charged every night, it has a gas engine to recharge the battery if needed.

I'm sure if you had a EV that parking spot with the charger would be dedicated for that car. Or install multiple chargers instead, problem solved. And it's not a problem plugging the car in when parking up. It's just a routine that owners get used to in the same way that they remember to brush their teeth before going to bed.

There are all sorts of reasons why people can't plug in their electric car at night every night, the charging spot at the apartment complex is taken up, they spent the night parked on the street outside of their girlfriend/boyfriend's home, friend's home, etc. 

Sure, it is more convenient to have overnight charging. But I don't understand this comment at all. You have around 350-400km on range. And if you let's say drive 100km for visiting a friend you know that you have plenty of range to get back home again. Or if the distance is longer there is a Supercharger en route that will be used for filling up.

What you're talking about are just non existing problems in the real world.

Here is one typical scenario, someone drove the Tesla all day, be it for work or whatever, he planned to go home and plug it in, but a booty call comes and he spent the night at the girl's place, the Tesla is practically empty the next morning and can't last the drive back to the office or home where the charger is located. 

Not sure I follow. Why would he end up outside the booty with zero battery in the first place? Who are so dumb to do that? And remember again, when he started of that morning he had 350+ km of range. And after the nice night with the booty he would off course have range to get home, to the office or to a supercharger.

Once again, this is a scenario that does not exist. One must be really a dumb to get into situations where range is an issue. It's not different from any other thing in life we plan or schedule.

I'm sure you will change your mind when the Mission-E is in your garage in a couple of years 

You can categorically refute everything you want, simply because you think rationally, and expect people to behave that way too.

But in the real world people simply don't behave that way. Humans don't work like that. See those endless warning screen on the navigation system every time you start up a car? Sane 'normal' human beings would wonder why the need for those warnings, sane people expect everyone to have common sense, but sadly a lot don't. 

You ever watched youtube videos of idiots doing stupid things? Do you ever wonder why would they even do those in the first place? You and I and many others wouldn't do that cause we know that's stupid, but it doesn't prevent those idiots from doing it anyway. 

I have seen with my own eyes on the side of a highway a Tesla driver stranded on the side of a road, ran out of juice, and a pickup trunk next to it with a Honda generator on the bed and plugged into the Tesla. His version of roadside assistance for electric cars. 

Electric range left depends on weather condition too, one might think if the gauge is showing 100 kms left would be plenty to get home which is 50km away, but if the temperature drops a lot or heated up a lot, the range estimate would change greatly. Something that's not uncommon, a cold front could have moved in overnight and drop the temperature by 10s of degrees. 

Agree that people needs to be educated on EVs and how it works in practice. With all new tech there is a learning curve before it is simply mastered and available for everyone.

I was just trying to explain a few things that I learnt myself while experience Tesla. I had a lot of preconceptions myself that completely went away when I experienced an EV for every day use and for some long trips both for work purposes and also with my girlfriend and friends. Have yet to meet someone who have tried out EV for real that not love it and have a hard time going back to a combustion engine as a daily driver. Biggest problem is that the only viable option today is Tesla and they are quite expensive so hence not for everyones budget.

Concerning temperatures that is of course something to be aware of. Temperatur drop to below freezing point will decrease range with 10-30% or so depending on conditions. I did a lot of driving in sub-zero climate and that is absolutely no problems and it is not like it drops dramatically instant. Remember that the Tesla very clear show real-time consumption, give real time indications what speed you need to maintain to reach the destination etc. It is a very smart system. Have to say also that the Model S I drove probably is the best car I ever driven in snow. It is rock solid and the 4wd system is fabulous. And I'm comparing with my Macan Turbo and I can say that the Tesla was better with the low center of gravity and possibility to communicate with each wheel instantly without any mechanical parts that need to respond 

Of course there are storys about EV owners that got stranded. But it's not like it never happened that a petrol car ran out of gas and got stranded far from a nearest petrol station and without any reserve on board.

And btw, don't ge me wrong, I absolutely love sports cars and high reving petrol engines! But as a daily driver I find the Tesla experience to be hard to beat. A Model S and a 991.2 GT3 would be a very very nice combo in my book  

No worries 

I do try to keep the 918 plugged in most of the time, at one point I think I spent a whole 2 months driving it without filling up, was doing short trips driving it off the wall socket.

Whoopsy:

No worries 

I do try to keep the 918 plugged in most of the time, at one point I think I spent a whole 2 months driving it without filling up, was doing short trips driving it off the wall socket.

 

That's really cool and show that there is a strong use case for hybrids also! 

Porsche might have mastered hybrids with this 918 system that now trickled down to the Panamera. Looking forward to take the new Panamera e-hybrid for a spin when it is available shortly. The Turbo S however is still a couple of months out I assume, but the e-system seems to be the same on both models.

You charge your phone no? Case closed...

noone1:

Yeah, I really just don't get the range anxiety. How often would you need to go to a gas station in daily life if your car always had a full tank when you woke up in the morning? Aside from a road trip, probably never....

Just out of curiosity: How would an ordinary driver with a Tesla charge his car when he lives in a condo? Most of the normal people here in Germany live in condos and park their cars outside on the street. How can they charge their cars?  Impossible.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

noone1:

Yeah, I really just don't get the range anxiety. How often would you need to go to a gas station in daily life if your car always had a full tank when you woke up in the morning? Aside from a road trip, probably never....

Just out of curiosity: How would an ordinary driver with a Tesla charge his car when he lives in a condo? Most of the normal people here in Germany live in condos and park their cars outside on the street. How can they charge their cars?  Impossible.

Just out of curiosity: Why this argument appear on this forum at all? Why do we speak about ordinary drivers all of a sudden when it comes to EV? Most ordinary drivers in Germany is not on this forum discussing supercars and their owning experience driving them, thinking about ordering the new Panamera Turbo or any other expensive car. I would assume that all owners of expensive cars would have access to overnight charging in a garage.

Didn't someone say ELVs are the future? The future only for rich people who own houses? 

If you want to make ELVs a mass transport phenomenon, you need to offer people a possibility to charge their cars over night in front of their homes. With condos, not that simple I'm afraid. 

Btw: In Germany, even upper class people often live in condos.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

Didn't someone say ELVs are the future? The future only for rich people who own houses? 

If you want to make ELVs a mass transport phenomenon, you need to offer people a possibility to charge their cars over night in front of their homes. With condos, not that simple I'm afraid. 

Btw: In Germany, even upper class people often live in condos.

Yes, EV is for sure the future, but like with all new tech and innovations it is expensive in the beginning and probably just wealthy people can afford the products. To some extent that is true with Tesla hence the cheapest Model S is still rather expensive.

New charging infrastructure and capabilities are built up quite rapid but it will still take time. But we got to start somewhere, right? Rome wasn't built in a single day... 

Eh? Those upper class germans living in condos probably have access to some sort of garage I would assume? At least those interested in cars or having expensive cars... no?

Just another question... Why being so negative about EV and the future trying to find arguments against it?? Is it because the German old-hat manufacturers are lacking behind the innovative california based tech-company?

Why being so negative about ELVs?

Simple:

1. Sound like crap (unless they create artificial sound...which is even worse)

2. Handle like crap (unless they find a possibility to shrink battery sizes/different materials and lower weight)

3. Evolving tech will make ownership(!) a lottery game since many ELVs will have outdated tech within a year or two and I mean really outdated tech, making them almost worthless. This will go on until ELV tech becomes a more steady factor with newly implemented innovations.

4. Recycling nightmare (batteries, etc.)

5. Gasoline prices may go up, making gasoline operated cars expensive to run

6. Massive loss of jobs in the car industry (ELVs need less sophisticated tech and manufacturing processes once the tech is pretty much standard, easier and cheaper to build).

7. Gasoline engine tech is not even close to it's end and could be developed further.

I could continue...

Positive? Well, I have some positive effects as well:

1. Performance improvements: We are going to see amazing performances from ELVs, especially regarding acceleration.

2. Networked tech could improve driving safety.

3. Self-driving cars easier to achieve with ELV tech.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

Why being so negative about ELVs?

Simple:

1. Sound like crap (unless they create artificial sound...which is even worse)

This is your opinion. High sounding cars will soon (for most actually already) be considered annoying and something that belong to history. You most often speak about the normal people and masses. 99% will agree that high sounding exhaust is just hideous.

2. Handle like crap (unless they find a possibility to shrink battery sizes/different materials and lower weight)

EV platform will allow for a perfect weigh balance with all weight down low. Battery tech will evolve and be lighter. But a Tesla Model S actually handle very well and run flat through the corners like a Panamera. Panamera better on the track, but no Panamera owner will drive the car on the track anyway. For spirited driving in curvy roads, a Tesla Mode S is actually a very fun drive.

3. Evolving tech will make ownership(!) a lottery game since many ELVs will have outdated tech within a year or two and I mean really outdated tech, making them almost worthless. This will go on until ELV tech becomes a more steady factor with newly implemented innovations.

Of course tech will develop further on and batteries will become better. But what will happen to all Hybrid cars and diesel cars? they will probably loose value even more and be even more outdated and cold on the second hand market in a few years. Buying e.g. a Tesla today will not decrease in value more than any other car in 3-5 years. Probably the other way around...

Not sure what you mean with outdated tech? A Tesla get's updated OTA all the time and new functions are added. The E-motors are very simple and does not have many mechanical parts. How do you mean the tech in an EV will get outdated quicker than in an equivalent combustion engine alternative?

4. Recycling nightmare (batteries, etc.)

Not true. All lithium in batteries can be 100% re-used in new batteries. The recycling of batteries are also getting better and better and a lot of progress is made in this area. Oil lobbyists of course have other sources of information...

5. Gasoline prices may go up, making gasoline operated cars expensive to run

GREAT! That will mean that gasoline driven cars will be taken of our roads even quicker and will just be enthusiast cars etc. Just like veteran cars today that are driven few miles on a hot summer day each year.

6. Massive loss of jobs in the car industry (ELVs need less sophisticated tech and manufacturing processes once the tech is pretty much standard, easier and cheaper to build).

Yes, this is much what hinders the traditional manufacturers with legacy and huge investments in engine/transmission R&D. But they need to try and transform their business if they still want to be in business. If they don't they will maybe not exist in 30 years... Nokia and Ericsson comes to mind...

If demand decrease for the products they manufacture, they have to cut down on employees anyway when the time comes...

7. Gasoline engine tech is not even close to it's end and could be developed further.

Reason for this is because companies having invested for ages in this older tech of course want to further tweak their products and milk the cow. But the market will steer and in the end customers will decide. In 50 years it will be a different landscape. Petrol heads are a dying breed, but those interested in cars will have a lot of cool EV alternatives that probably both handle better and perform better than any combustion car does today around NBR.

I could continue...

Yea, please do...

I do not smoke but you apparently smoked too much Scandinavian eco weed.

I don't know a single person in Germany who would think about ELVs the way you do and it will take decades until they probably do...or start thinking that way. I doubt it is going to be different in many other EU countries, especially now that people are slowly recovering from that economic crisis mess (and it isn't over yet).

Tesla is not really worth mentioning in Germany. 1906 Tesla were registered in Germany in 2016. 

In comparison: 8016 Porsche 911 were registered.  We are talking 4x the number in sportscars(!).

Over 236000(!) VW Golf were registered in Germany 2016. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

I do not smoke but you apparently smoked too much Scandinavian eco weed.

Probaly not very much fun effect of eco weed 

But on a serious note. I'm still driving a petrol car myself (Macan) and I'm far from being any tree hugger. I just find the Teslas to be really smart cars after having got the opportunity to test it out and not just read about it like many do. I absolutely love the feeling of an EV-drivetrain and think it is the future by many reasons. Also a bit tired of some of the EV myths circulating that in most cases are fabulated. Not more complicated than that.

I don't know a single person in Germany who would think about ELVs the way you do and it will take decades until they probably do...or start thinking that way. 

Not very strange at all since the domestic manufacturers have not pushed EVs to the market. Yet..

Tesla is not really worth mentioning in Germany. 1906 Tesla were registered in Germany in 2016. 

In comparison: 8016 Porsche 911 were registered. 

I'm not surprised. Why would germans all of a sudden go out and buy American cars instead of the cars manufacturered in Germany? Germany will probably not be a trendsetter when it comes to EV for many reasons.

But I'm sure the perception of EVs will change in 2020 when there will be more alternatives pushed out by Audi, BMW, VW, Porsche...

My prediction is that in 2020 you will buy a Mission-E and a couple of months later having got the hang of how fab EV is you will write about it is in every thread just like with the R8 . Let's revert back to this post in 3 years 

I could buy the "960"...I would never get the Mission E, even if this could become Porsche's Tesla competitor.

Got rid of my 991.1 Turbo S because it was not emotionally satisfying and got a 991.1 C4 GTS Cab instead. Why would you think that an ELV would make me happy? 

I could imagine getting a Tesla X as a family SUV...if the Tesla X would actually look like a SUV (right now, I hate how it looks, more Minivan than SUV, horrible).

If we are talking the big picture here, I think that 2030 is more realistic for a ELV breakthrough in Europe, maybe even later, depending on the available ELV infrastructure.

Btw: Tesla has scratched the Tesla S 60 and 60D in Germany, they didn't sell too well. Base version is the 75 now. Instead, they introduced a non-performance version of the 100D version (S and X models) with longer battery capacity. Prices drop by 43000 and 37000 EUR respectively (compared to the Performance versions). Wow. 

I think that the Tesla 3 and it's success (or not) will actually push ELVs forward...or not. The Tesla 3 will be the forefront for an ELV success on the mass transportation market...or not. If the Tesla 3 is successful, this success could capture Europe and the rest of the world as well.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

I could buy the "960"...I would never get the Mission E, even if this could become Porsche's Tesla competitor.

Got rid of my 991.1 Turbo S because it was not emotionally satisfying and got a 991.1 C4 GTS Cab instead. Why would you think that an ELV would make me happy? 

Emotions can change over time 

I could imagine getting a Tesla X as a family SUV...if the Tesla X would actually look like a SUV (right now, I hate how it looks, more Minivan than SUV, horrible).

Yeah, the X is not for everyones taste and I'm not keen on the looks either. But I have actually grown to like it a bit more, specifically in darker colors and with big wheels. But of course, it's more of a practical car if you need to seat 7 people and with these demands the alternatives aren't directly pretty either 

If we are talking the big picture here, I think that 2030 is more realistic for a ELV breakthrough in Europe, maybe even later, depending on the available ELV infrastructure.

Time will tell. And definition of "breakthrough" is very broad. But in my book the Tesla cars and Supercharging infrastructure in year 2017 is already a viable option. It is just too expensive, but the Model 3 will fix that if the timeline not crashes. But let's not go into that discussion.

Btw: Tesla has scratched the Tesla S 60 and 60D in Germany, they didn't sell too well. Base version is the 75 now. Instead, they introduced a non-performance version of the 100D version (S and X models) with longer battery capacity. Prices drop by 43000 and 37000 EUR respectively (compared to the Performance versions). Wow. 

60 and 60D are discontinued throughout the world, so not only in Germany. Will be possible to order the 60 until mid april. Main reason is to differentiate the X/S more from the Model 3 that will have smaller battery configuration (rumor says 45-85kWh depending on config). The 60/60D are also just software locked to 60kWh, the actual battery pack is 75kWh. For the owners of a 60, they can upgrade to 75kWh when they want to do so.

100D was launched 15th of January so cars starting to get to EU about now and customers are taking delivery.

Regarding the performance versions and the higher price... Compare a Panamera Turbo S price point with a Panamera 4 e-hybrid. It is 110k EUR vs 185k EUR. If you add all the goodies to the 4 e-hybrid (pccb, full leather, pdcc, bigger wheels, etc) you will still end up with a price difference of about 40-50k. That cost is for the bigger motor and increased performance. Just like the performance improvements a P100D will give over a 100D.

Back to the G class. Certainly the best sounding and also probably the coolest looking SUV on sale (in AMG Form),  still which is incredible. Indeed in London you also get the Bravia ones where the tires proteude about an inch outside the wheel arches which looks fantastic. The problems all start when you actually get inside.  Cramped quarters and an absolutely horrendous ride quality on the street. I so wanted to love it and I do so love it from the outside but it has to be almost  unbearable to own and use.... that all said, get it off-road and it will clean everything up including the land rovers and land cruisers (except if it is on 22 inch rubber band tires...)

Tesla already beat all other cars in the luxury sedan segment. Germany is a bit unique with the autobahn...

The acceleratin in The Tessa S is fun, for about 30 minutes. Then I wonder what else can it do for me?

I'm much happier with top down, sport exhaust, shifting my own gears. I know it's archaic. It's also produces a lot more satisfaction than any silent, heavy, uninvolving EV can.

But sometimes the older stuff is better. I have no interest in wearing a quartz watch, synthetic materials or dyeing my hair.

The emotional content trumps all else with cars for me. I will say that if the car could become fully autonomous to the point where I could have it pick up my dry cleaning, or packages that I missed delivery for, or take me to the airport while I'm still working on my laptop, that could Change  things for me. Right now the best ELV is just a less engaging mode of transportation than the cars I already have.

SciFrog:

Tesla already beat all other cars in the luxury sedan segment. Germany is a bit unique with the autobahn...

I doubt that Tesla sells much better in other EU countries than in Germany. Only exception seems to be Scandinavia, for whatever reasons. Especially Norway (which isn't even in the EU). Basically 90% of the Tesla S I see in Europe while traveling have Norwegian license plates.  

I loved the Tesla S I test-drove because of the tech and the nice display and everything. The novelty factor really plays a huge role. As a gadget lover, this is really a fun car. I would get one as my third or fourth car maybe.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

SciFrog:

Tesla already beat all other cars in the luxury sedan segment. Germany is a bit unique with the autobahn...

I doubt that Tesla sells much better in other EU countries than in Germany. Only exception seems to be Scandinavia, for whatever reasons. Especially Norway (which isn't even in the EU). Basically 90% of the Tesla S I see in Europe while traveling have Norwegian license plates.  

Here I see now as many Model X as Cayenne . I see many , many more Model S then Panamera , BMW 7 series or Mercedes Class s . Tesla have huge sales in my part of the world 

But maybe Switzerland is different then the other markets . The 928 was also a huge success over here , but not els wear 
--

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Gnil:

RC:

SciFrog:

Tesla already beat all other cars in the luxury sedan segment. Germany is a bit unique with the autobahn...

I doubt that Tesla sells much better in other EU countries than in Germany. Only exception seems to be Scandinavia, for whatever reasons. Especially Norway (which isn't even in the EU). Basically 90% of the Tesla S I see in Europe while traveling have Norwegian license plates.  

Here I see now as many Model X as Cayenne . I see many , many more Model S then Panamera , BMW 7 series or Mercedes Class s . Tesla have huge sales in my part of the world 

Well, there is a reason bluelines feels good in Switzerland...similar mentality to Scandinavians?  

The Tesla X looks like a Minivan, I would never get this car, even if it would do 0-100 kph in 2 seconds flat. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

I think you are missing the point, the X IS a SUV looking minivan. Saw it again in the Tesla shop in Aspen, the practicality of the third row is unreal and it really looks special. We has a GL450 for the week and it looks seriously dated and not at all nicer than the X. EV are not for everyone but they are here to stay and Tesla is doing a wonderful job at being first. If the Macan turbo wasn't as good as it is, I would dump it immediately and get an X...

SciFrog:

I think you are missing the point, the X IS a SUV looking minivan. Saw it again in the Tesla shop in Aspen, the practicality of the third row is unreal and it really looks special. We has a GL450 for the week and it looks seriously dated and not at all nicer than the X. EV are not for everyone but they are here to stay and Tesla is doing a wonderful job at being first. If the Macan turbo wasn't as good as it is, I would dump it immediately and get an X...

The X looks like a Minivan, I do not see a bit of SUV there.  The design is ugly. I like the Tesla S but the Tesla X would never be in my garage, no matter how fast or great it would be. Same goes to the Prius btw....or the Smart. I cannot believe I had a Smart once as a company delivery car, never again. An abomination of a car. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

The X grows on you. Seeing some very often on the road, it is not as odd as originally and it is very iconic and recognizable. And people consider it very very cool, much cooler than a Cayenne but not quite as cool as a G or a Range Rover. It is quite astonishing Tesla managed to do that for their "minivan". And it has AWD so it does blur the lines to the SUV segment.

SciFrog:

The X grows on you. Seeing some very often on the road, it is not as odd as originally and it is very iconic and recognizable. And people consider it very very cool, much cooler than a Cayenne but not quite as cool as a G or a Range Rover. It is quite astonishing Tesla managed to do that for their "minivan". And it has AWD so it does blur the lines to the SUV segment.

Whoever considers a Tesla X "cool" should have his head checked.  No Tesla is "cool" in my book but the tech is cool. For me, this is a big difference in perception. I admire Musk and the tech behind Tesla cars but I do not admire the cars or would want to own one. Not now. Maybe if the cars really become cool, either through a very innovative design (right now, they look rather generic and almost "Japanese") or innovative tech. Time will tell.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Different countries, different regions... The X is considered one of the coolest car in the USA, like it or not, even with a controversial design. Just look at the crowds at the Tesla stores...

SciFrog:

Different countries, different regions... The X is considered one of the coolest car in the USA, like it or not, even with a controversial design. Just look at the crowds at the Tesla stores...

+1

Few other Tesla owners. And remember that no-one get a discount on a Tesla whoever you are and how many you buy...

I was shocked to even see Teslas in Aspen since you can barely do a round trip to Vail or a one way to Denver on one charge.

SciFrog:

Different countries, different regions... The X is considered one of the coolest car in the USA, like it or not, even with a controversial design. Just look at the crowds at the Tesla stores...

Same here , and same with the Model S .

Every wife want s one and any husband who's got one is considered '' cool'' . Even the kids think like that .

It is a a fashion thing , for sure . Just like the iPhone was . 

A model X or a model S is considered way above any Cayenne or X5 for the population, as it represents novelty, innovation , exclusivity . The other SUV are like dinosaurs compared to it . 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS