Crown

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nberry said:
Why would you need a 480hp sport car for everyday driving? It is impractical and silly to drive a car of this nature in traffic on a regular basis.

Sport cars should be designed to be exciting to drive and provide an escape to a fairly successful individual. This done by choosing those moments, getting into your "sanctuary" and enjoying the road. Driving a tt to work, grocery store and then trying to use it as a instrument to generate excitement and passion is unrealistic. It ain't going to happen.

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nberry said:
Sorry RC you are now feeding the crap. Poseur's drive 480hp sport cars to work. True sport car devotee's drive sport cars for the purpose there were designed for. SPIRITED DRIVING in a safe environment.

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Carlos from Spain said:

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nberry said:
Sorry RC you are now feeding the crap. Poseur's drive 480hp sport cars to work. True sport car devotee's drive sport cars for the purpose there were designed for. SPIRITED DRIVING in a safe environment.

Au contraire mon ami... true sportcar devotee's go out of their way to enjoy sportcars in as much of their driving miles as posible (weekdays, weekend and track), and are simply miserable when driving a non-sportcar.
Poseurs are the ones that take out their pre-arranged trade-in garage queen only on the weekends if its nice and sunny to get coffee at starbucks.

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nberry said:
Why would you need a 480hp sport car for everyday driving? It is impractical and silly to drive a car of this nature in traffic on a regular basis.

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MKSGR said:

Quote:
nberry said:
Why would you need a 480hp sport car for everyday driving? It is impractical and silly to drive a car of this nature in traffic on a regular basis.

True sports cars are designed for an annual mileage in excess of 25.000km ... with an average speed of above 200kph

You need 450hp+ to have fun on the AB - on a daily basis

Quote:
nberry said:
Why would you need a 480hp sport car for everyday driving? It is impractical and silly to drive a car of this nature in traffic on a regular basis.

Sport cars should be designed to be exciting to drive and provide an escape to a fairly successful individual. This done by choosing those moments, getting into your "sanctuary" and enjoying the road. Driving a tt to work, grocery store and then trying to use it as a instrument to generate excitement and passion is unrealistic. It ain't going to happen.

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MKSGR said:BTW: I did 300km today, I will do 900km tomorrow and 900km the day after tomorrow. 300kph are on the speedo at least once on each trip. The speedo shows >200kph approximately 50% of the time.

That's the terrain for a true sports car. That's where you can divide the best from the second best. It is as simple as that

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Hurst said:
Although you are correct in some of your assumptions, there has to be a standard of judgement. We cannot absolve everything into relativity.

The gestalt concept of a sports car is not a definitive strata, but it has several aspects to its ideology that are empirically accepted:

1.) To derive pleasure from the act of driving it
-this can be delivered through the sensation (feel, sound, touch) of speed

-the concept of speed can be further broken down into elements such as acceleration or cornering. Acceleration is pretty much percieved as the less pure of the two (relying on grip and power as the most important elements (any muscle car can haul arse down a line, it takes more around a track).

-The concept of cornering adds elements such as weight, RWD pleasure (the balance between oversteer, understeer and control), aerodynamics, grip etc...

-The most hardcore purists in regards to cornering will be obsessed with things such as ABS, Power Steering and above all else weight . Cars such as the McLaren F1, the Ferarri F40, the GT3RS, the Lotus Elise become the staples of this ideology. The truly fanatics push it further to the ariel atoms, the Radicals etc...

-Top speed can also be thrown into the equation, something of a mix between aerodynamics and weight/power ratio. Something of a hybrid...

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2.) To derive pleasure from the act of appreciating it (the vehicle)

-this can be delivered visually and auditorally; amongst friends and pedestrians.

-Do you find the sound of the Carerra GT spinetingling? Do you find yourself standing in your garage staring at your F430 for untold periods of time? Do you enjoy having people gawk at your Ferrari F430? These are subsidiary elements to the concept of sport driving pleasure but nevertheless important elements .

- what does one find aesthetically pleasing? What does one find visually stimulating? These become more convoluted questions about personal taste, anyone can attest to this.
-(The very tennants of aesthetic standards is a much larger concept that is only tangentially relevant, so I wont get into it)


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The fundamental principles of driving pleasure are founded on the connection between the man and the machine.
To give an example, do you get pleasure at raising a child to be a functional and well-mannered human being or do you get pleasure at hiring maids, tutors and nannies to do it for yourself?

Of course, the debate between GT3 and Turbo is not as simple as the afformentioned anecdote. Both have their strengths and both have their weaknesses in the paradigm I so roughly laid out above.

Both cars can derive pleasure, however the GT3 is more pure to form (undeniably) in terms of connection between the driver and the machine. This very element is perhaps why Excellence magazine's snipet about the GT3 was filled with speculation, about the PASM's role in changing the driver/machine paradigm on the machine.

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What we can draw from this is that the Turbo is not a pure sportscar . It never has been and anyone who claims it to be or is disappointed by it not being is foolish.

It is heavy, it is less involving (4WD vs 2WD) and this particular 997 pushes the envelope with the concept of Tiptronic vs Manual (again, back to connectivity with the machine).

However, the very question of true sports driving is becoming more and more impractical for many, so compromises are appreciated . The 997 Turbo may be the most technically jawdropping compromise for a sports car ever.
Furthermore, we can't always be so selfish to the tennants of pure pleasure via driving. Issues such as safety and responsibility are important.
For many (especially on the 997 Turbo forum) this is exactly what they want and I emplore them to get this fantastic machine.


For others (such as AUM and, I must say, myself) it is not the end-all be all. These others may be reckless and less safe and less concerned about the creatures of comfort, but they are more connected to the concept of sports car driving.

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nberry said:

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RC said:

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nberry said:
Why would you need a 480hp sport car for everyday driving? It is impractical and silly to drive a car of this nature in traffic on a regular basis.

Now I know for sure you're a poser, sorry Nick.

Let me ask you this: why does someone need a 500+ HP 2.5 ton truck for commuting his family?

It is all about DRIVING, nothing else.

Sorry RC you are now feeding the crap. Poseur's drive 480hp sport cars to work. True sport car devotee's drive sport cars for the purpose there were designed for. SPIRITED DRIVING in a safe environment.

The whole concept of sport car originated when driver's wanted a diversion from their mundane lives of drivng family vehicles to and from work or other tasks. The sport car was meant to be a supplement and not a replacement for transportation.

Regarding the two ton trucks with 500hp I couldn't agree more. But does two wrongs make it right?

Finally, I agree we all should wait to see the TT in person although I will bring my vomit bag just to be safe. The car apparently is selling like hotcakes if Alan's post is correct. Porsche will laugh all the way to the bank which will not surprise me. They have been doing it for several years.

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MKSGR said:

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MKSGR said:

Quote:
nberry said:
Why would you need a 480hp sport car for everyday driving? It is impractical and silly to drive a car of this nature in traffic on a regular basis.

True sports cars are designed for an annual mileage in excess of 25.000km ... with an average speed of above 200kph

You need 450hp+ to have fun on the AB - on a daily basis

BTW: I did 300km today, I will do 900km tomorrow and 900km the day after tomorrow. 300kph are on the speedo at least once on each trip. The speedo shows >200kph approximately 50% of the time.

That's the terrain for a true sports car. That's where you can divide the best from the second best. It is as simple as that

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Grant said:

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MKSGR said:BTW: I did 300km today, I will do 900km tomorrow and 900km the day after tomorrow. 300kph are on the speedo at least once on each trip. The speedo shows >200kph approximately 50% of the time.

That's the terrain for a true sports car. That's where you can divide the best from the second best. It is as simple as that

While I adore driving on the autobahn (by far the finest highways in the world with the most sensible speed limits), I don't think that's necessarily the realm of a sportscar. A 600hp 5,000 lb Benz would be just as happy (almost) at that pace...

To me, the realm of a sportcar is a winding mountain road or a racetrack (no place for a Benz)...

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Joost said:
These personal attacks make me sick...
-Joost-

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RonnieC6Z said:
I own one car...06 Z06...I drive it everywhere, everyday...18,000 miles a year...I would not have it any other way. But, that is just my outlook.

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RC said:
...And I wouldn't tell you what my customers would think if they'd see me in a Vette...

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mumbasic said:

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MKSGR said:

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MKSGR said:

Quote:
nberry said:
Why would you need a 480hp sport car for everyday driving? It is impractical and silly to drive a car of this nature in traffic on a regular basis.

True sports cars are designed for an annual mileage in excess of 25.000km ... with an average speed of above 200kph

You need 450hp+ to have fun on the AB - on a daily basis

BTW: I did 300km today, I will do 900km tomorrow and 900km the day after tomorrow. 300kph are on the speedo at least once on each trip. The speedo shows >200kph approximately 50% of the time.

That's the terrain for a true sports car. That's where you can divide the best from the second best. It is as simple as that

Sorry, but driving 50% of time > 200 kph on a highway has in my opinion nothing to do with sports cars. You could do this with a MB S65 AMG easier.

AM

Quote:
Grant said:

Quote:
MKSGR said:BTW: I did 300km today, I will do 900km tomorrow and 900km the day after tomorrow. 300kph are on the speedo at least once on each trip. The speedo shows >200kph approximately 50% of the time.

That's the terrain for a true sports car. That's where you can divide the best from the second best. It is as simple as that

While I adore driving on the autobahn (by far the finest highways in the world with the most sensible speed limits), I don't think that's necessarily the realm of a sportscar. A 600hp 5,000 lb Benz would be just as happy (almost) at that pace...

To me, the realm of a sportcar is a winding mountain road or a racetrack (no place for a Benz)...

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RC said:

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Joost said:
These personal attacks make me sick...
-Joost-

Well, who is without sin, should throw the first stone...

To be serious: Nick knows what to expect, he asks for it. This is why the Mods and Admins usually don't intervene. BUT if someone would personally insult him by calling him or his family names, etc., I would personally take care of that. This would be something we wouldn't accept under any circumstances.

Yes, the discussion has gained some passion, no doubt about it. But since were discussing "passionless superiority", I think some extra passion can't hurt.

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Joost said:

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RC said:
...And I wouldn't tell you what my customers would think if they'd see me in a Vette...

Lucky you... your customers don't mind seeing you in a 911, but they do mind seeing you in a vette... wow, I wish I had customers like that... finally an excuse to buy the 911!!!
-Joost-

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RC said:

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RonnieC6Z said:
I own one car...06 Z06...I drive it everywhere, everyday...18,000 miles a year...I would not have it any other way. But, that is just my outlook.

Where do you live? Where "it never rains"?
A few facts about Bavaria: lots of rain, even more snow from around early Dec. to late March (we had even in April snow this year). When it rains, it pours and it usually rains for a couple of days. Also we have low temperatures, even if it is dry or if there is no snow, from around end of Oct. to early Dec. and from April to May.

Actually meaning: you can't even use a C06 over here as a daily driver, not to speak about the Z06.
And I wouldn't tell you what my customers would think if they'd see me in a Vette (sorry, I know...old prejudice) over here. No chance I'm afraid.

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RC said:
Maybe politicians should open up a website like "worldgovernment" and start discussing their issues in a forum. It could lead to better solutions than now.

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RC said:

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Joost said:

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RC said:
...And I wouldn't tell you what my customers would think if they'd see me in a Vette...

Lucky you... your customers don't mind seeing you in a 911, but they do mind seeing you in a vette... wow, I wish I had customers like that... finally an excuse to buy the 911!!!
-Joost-

My customers would had a very difficult time to accept seeing me driving in a 997 Turbo, this is for sure.
Some of them don't come anymore because they saw me in the Boxster and the Cayenne but others ask about or mention the cars but they're still coming, so I guess I'm doing something right. A Vette would be impossible, I'm in a trustful business and a Vette would put me at "red light" level, if you understand what I mean. This is NOT my opinion but people have their prejudices, especially older people over here.

I actually have some nice stories to tell too involving my business and my Porsche cars:
I have two customers who come to my business because they also own Porsche cars and (original statement of one of them): "Porsche owners have to support each other". I actually like this.
Another example even from Rennteam: a fellow user came from another country to buy something from my business today. He could have done it from any other business closer to the Austrian border but he drove those extra kms to bring the business to me and I really appreciated it.

I always thought that if you're good in what you're doing and if you try hard and try to offer a good service, people won't care about who you are or what car you drive. Unfortunately this doesn't always work. But sometimes, sometimes I have those pleasant surprises...like today for example. Incredible how a "stupid" forum can connect people and create new friendships. Internationally. I just love it.

Maybe politicians should open up a website like "worldgovernment" and start discussing their issues in a forum. It could lead to better solutions than now.

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Justin said:
I thought about this issue for a while and eventually understood both sides fairly well (I think so, anyway). A lot of the arguments used don't really apply to everyone's situation. I think at the end of the day, everyone seems to use their sports cars in different ways and different models seem to appeal for those reasons. Also, everyone wants to be happy with their purchases, and thus some emotion comes out.

Those who are overly critical of the 997 Turbo are either a) looking at the wrong car in the first place or b) don't understand the Turbo concept.

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Joost said:
These personal attacks make me sick...
-Joost-

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RC said:

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Joost said:

Quote:
RC said:
...And I wouldn't tell you what my customers would think if they'd see me in a Vette...

Lucky you... your customers don't mind seeing you in a 911, but they do mind seeing you in a vette... wow, I wish I had customers like that... finally an excuse to buy the 911!!!
-Joost-

My customers would had a very difficult time to accept seeing me driving in a 997 Turbo, this is for sure.
Some of them don't come anymore because they saw me in the Boxster and the Cayenne but others ask about or mention the cars but they're still coming, so I guess I'm doing something right. A Vette would be impossible, I'm in a trustful business and a Vette would put me at "red light" level, if you understand what I mean. This is NOT my opinion but people have their prejudices, especially older people over here.

I actually have some nice stories to tell too involving my business and my Porsche cars:
I have two customers who come to my business because they also own Porsche cars and (original statement of one of them): "Porsche owners have to support each other". I actually like this.
Another example even from Rennteam: a fellow user came from another country to buy something from my business today. He could have done it from any other business closer to the Austrian border but he drove those extra kms to bring the business to me and I really appreciated it.

I always thought that if you're good in what you're doing and if you try hard and try to offer a good service, people won't care about who you are or what car you drive. Unfortunately this doesn't always work. But sometimes, sometimes I have those pleasant surprises...like today for example. Incredible how a "stupid" forum can connect people and create new friendships. Internationally. I just love it.

Maybe politicians should open up a website like "worldgovernment" and start discussing their issues in a forum. It could lead to better solutions than now.