Apr 26, 2006 4:07:17 PM
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Porsche930S
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Apr 26, 2006 4:40:25 PM
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Dr. Phil
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Re: New C6 Z06 is so fast that...
I believe this is simply the same debate we had since twe first saw the numbers on the new Z06 - and later had the most memorable (hehe...) debate about the Magnussen run on NBR.
There is no doubt in my mind, that you get a LOT of bangg for your buck in the new Vette. Almost every serious car mag out there think so - American as well as European.
There is also no doubt, that this car is a threat to the Porsches, Ferraris, Lambos- and what have you - out there when it comes to performance.
It will smoke some and be darn close to others. Straightline as well as on track.
BUT - and there are 2 BUTs here:
1) As a brand the Vette isn't up there with the Porsches, Ferraris etc. And the easiest way to prove this is not thru brand audits, polls, analysis or other ways of measuring a brand's value, but the mere fact that GM only charges around half of what P and F charges for a car that can do the same performance-wise.
Why only charge half of their competitors if they could charge the same?
This is either seriously bad business, OR a proof that GM knows that a Vette isn't perceived by the target audience as having the same brand value as Ps and F's.
2) Is the build quality really up there with Porsche? Is this a one-off for GM or will they keep up the performance while keeping the price down?
Only time will tell.
I believe a potential Vette owner will be either
a) dreaming of a Porsche or Ferrari, but cant float the bill, or
b) realizes that he doesnt want to pay that much for a brand - he/she just wants a damn fine car.
Personally, I dont believe there are many people out there who will be both potential Vette and Porsche/Ferrari buyers at the same time.
If you're into IWC watches you don't buy a Seiko because it has more features. (And I'm not comparing Seiko to Vette...so dont blow your fuses, thank you).
When all is said and done, it's all down to the driver and his skills.
I just went tracking again, and once more I got a lot of proof that driving skills and focus is everything.
Besides, I saw a Murcielago and brand new F430 F1...just sitting on the paddock next to the track...and the guys never tracked them.
There should be a law against that!
So better get a Vette and have some fun, than tucking your F or P away in the garage.
There is no doubt in my mind, that you get a LOT of bangg for your buck in the new Vette. Almost every serious car mag out there think so - American as well as European.
There is also no doubt, that this car is a threat to the Porsches, Ferraris, Lambos- and what have you - out there when it comes to performance.
It will smoke some and be darn close to others. Straightline as well as on track.
BUT - and there are 2 BUTs here:
1) As a brand the Vette isn't up there with the Porsches, Ferraris etc. And the easiest way to prove this is not thru brand audits, polls, analysis or other ways of measuring a brand's value, but the mere fact that GM only charges around half of what P and F charges for a car that can do the same performance-wise.
Why only charge half of their competitors if they could charge the same?
This is either seriously bad business, OR a proof that GM knows that a Vette isn't perceived by the target audience as having the same brand value as Ps and F's.
2) Is the build quality really up there with Porsche? Is this a one-off for GM or will they keep up the performance while keeping the price down?
Only time will tell.
I believe a potential Vette owner will be either
a) dreaming of a Porsche or Ferrari, but cant float the bill, or
b) realizes that he doesnt want to pay that much for a brand - he/she just wants a damn fine car.
Personally, I dont believe there are many people out there who will be both potential Vette and Porsche/Ferrari buyers at the same time.
If you're into IWC watches you don't buy a Seiko because it has more features. (And I'm not comparing Seiko to Vette...so dont blow your fuses, thank you).
When all is said and done, it's all down to the driver and his skills.
I just went tracking again, and once more I got a lot of proof that driving skills and focus is everything.
Besides, I saw a Murcielago and brand new F430 F1...just sitting on the paddock next to the track...and the guys never tracked them.
There should be a law against that!
So better get a Vette and have some fun, than tucking your F or P away in the garage.
Apr 26, 2006 5:06:00 PM
- bondmid003
- Pilot
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- Loc: La Jolla, CA , United States
- Posts: 378, Gallery
- Registered on: Mar 10, 2006
- Reply to: Dr. Phil
Re: New C6 Z06 is so fast that...
Quote:
Dr. Phil said:
I believe this is simply the same debate we had since twe first saw the numbers on the new Z06 - and later had the most memorable (hehe...) debate about the Magnussen run on NBR.
There is no doubt in my mind, that you get a LOT of bangg for your buck in the new Vette. Almost every serious car mag out there think so - American as well as European.
There is also no doubt, that this car is a threat to the Porsches, Ferraris, Lambos- and what have you - out there when it comes to performance.
It will smoke some and be darn close to others. Straightline as well as on track.
BUT - and there are 2 BUTs here:
1) As a brand the Vette isn't up there with the Porsches, Ferraris etc. And the easiest way to prove this is not thru brand audits, polls, analysis or other ways of measuring a brand's value, but the mere fact that GM only charges around half of what P and F charges for a car that can do the same performance-wise.
Why only charge half of their competitors if they could charge the same?
This is either seriously bad business, OR a proof that GM knows that a Vette isn't perceived by the target audience as having the same brand value as Ps and F's.
2) Is the build quality really up there with Porsche? Is this a one-off for GM or will they keep up the performance while keeping the price down?
Only time will tell.
I believe a potential Vette owner will be either
a) dreaming of a Porsche or Ferrari, but cant float the bill, or
b) realizes that he doesnt want to pay that much for a brand - he/she just wants a damn fine car.
Personally, I dont believe there are many people out there who will be both potential Vette and Porsche/Ferrari buyers at the same time.
If you're into IWC watches you don't buy a Seiko because it has more features. (And I'm not comparing Seiko to Vette...so dont blow your fuses, thank you).
When all is said and done, it's all down to the driver and his skills.
I just went tracking again, and once more I got a lot of proof that driving skills and focus is everything.
Besides, I saw a Murcielago and brand new F430 F1...just sitting on the paddock next to the track...and the guys never tracked them.
There should be a law against that!
So better get a Vette and have some fun, than tucking your F or P away in the garage.
It's just a threat to Porsche? The Carrera and the Carrera S are no where near the level of the Z. The new TT...certainly on par with the Z. I think Porsche should worry that the base C6 is on par with the Carrera after years of Vette's playing catch up.
Re: New C6 Z06 is so fast that...
Quote:
95jersey said:Quote:
RossN said:Quote:
SciFrog said:
Lets settle this once and for all:
http://www.fourtitude.com/news/publish/Features/article_1253.shtml?page=2
Donkervoort D8
Cheaper than a Z06, convertible and will atomise the Z06 and much much nicer car.
Sorry to burst you bubble Ronnie.
That is not a car, that is a kart and not a daily driver for sure.
Why not throw the Ultima into the mix? I'll tell you why, because is has no warranty / resale / comfort / etc....
I agree.
Also, I dislike focusing on numbers, but I read that it does 0-60 in 6 seconds with a terminal (top) speed of 125 mph. While I am sure with it's weight advantage it would handle and brake very well, but on a medium to long road course a 911TT, Z06, 430 would eat this for lunch. Handling and braking are extremely important, but not enough to make up for 500 raw HP coming out of sweeping corners onto back straits. Also, they are quite expensive for something that can't be driven in the rain, without AC, or some comforts.
quote...
"The only limiting factor may be your budget. Pricing for standard D8s starts around $52,000 ( Euro 41,000) and can climb to around $105,000 ( Euro 82,500)."
This would probably be a great Autocrosser and would compete well with a Miata, but a Miata can be purchased and modified to run faster for much less.
With this said, I would hate to get into a high speed crash with either vehicle. It could be ugly, as I have seen this first hand. Over the past couple years, I have looked into these types of cars as a dedicated track only car, but in the end, I have choosen to use a modified C5 Z06. I have done this mostly because of bang for the buck, but I feel safer enclosed within a strong metal frame, with airbags, and impact zones engineered into the car. While I love the new Z, I am a little nervous about using an aluminum frame at the race track.
I guess my point wasn't clear enough.
It is all about compromise.
Most people will agree the 997TT (tip) is a daily driver and is very safe.
Most people will agree the Donkervoort is not a daily driver and is not the safest car.
Well the Z06 would be in the middle, a lot of people (including me) consider it is not good enough for a daily driver and not safe enough. So too much of a compromise even for half the price of the 997TT. Thus the I would take a Donkervoort over a Z06 anytime as a weekend car.
My other point is that for the same amount of money than the Z06, you can get a much better car, the Z06 is not the ultimate uber super car that someone (like Ronnie) just thinks there is no other cars that makes sense owning.
The Z06 is a great car for SOME people, but not for the majority of them.
Re: New C6 Z06 is so fast that...
Quote:
Dr. Phil said:
Besides, I saw a Murcielago and brand new F430 F1...just sitting on the paddock next to the track...and the guys never tracked them.
There should be a law against that!
So better get a Vette and have some fun, than tucking your F or P away in the garage.
Maybe they weren't broken in yet
Re: New C6 Z06 is so fast that...
Quote:
sdy284 said:Quote:
Dr. Phil said:
Besides, I saw a Murcielago and brand new F430 F1...just sitting on the paddock next to the track...and the guys never tracked them.
There should be a law against that!
So better get a Vette and have some fun, than tucking your F or P away in the garage.
Maybe they weren't broken in yet
Oh, I believe they were.
The Murcie was a 05 model and the F430 owner revved the car like crazy when he arrived...so if he was sparing the engine during break-in, he was doing a bad job
I believe some owners of hi-end sportscars are afraid of tracking them, because people expect the cars to outperform others...and the truth is that a well-tuned 170 BHP slick-clad Group N Alfa can smoke a Ferrari CS anytime - let alone a much too heavy Murcie.
But it is sad that we rarely get to see these cars on the track - altho there was one guy out burning rubber in his Ford GT...what a sweeeet ride.
Whoooooosch!
Apr 26, 2006 5:20:31 PM
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Dr. Phil
- Rennteam Master
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- Loc: Denmark , Denmark
- Posts: 5884, Gallery
- Registered on: Nov 30, 2004
- Reply to: bondmid003
Re: New C6 Z06 is so fast that...
Quote:
bondmid003 said:
It's just a threat to Porsche? The Carrera and the Carrera S are no where near the level of the Z. The new TT...certainly on par with the Z. I think Porsche should worry that the base C6 is on par with the Carrera after years of Vette's playing catch up.
Read the rest of my post, please.
I believe you will see that I write, that the Vette will smoke some of it's "competitors".
Trouble might be, that many P-owners might not car that much abouyt getting smoked by a Vette.
As I've trued to point out, there is more to driving a sporstcar than numbers. One aspect being the brand value.
Re: New C6 Z06 is so fast that...
Quote:
Dr. Phil said:
I believe this is simply the same debate we had since twe first saw the numbers on the new Z06 - and later had the most memorable (hehe...) debate about the Magnussen run on NBR.
There is no doubt in my mind, that you get a LOT of bangg for your buck in the new Vette. Almost every serious car mag out there think so - American as well as European.
There is also no doubt, that this car is a threat to the Porsches, Ferraris, Lambos- and what have you - out there when it comes to performance.
It will smoke some and be darn close to others. Straightline as well as on track.
BUT - and there are 2 BUTs here:
1) As a brand the Vette isn't up there with the Porsches, Ferraris etc. And the easiest way to prove this is not thru brand audits, polls, analysis or other ways of measuring a brand's value, but the mere fact that GM only charges around half of what P and F charges for a car that can do the same performance-wise.
Why only charge half of their competitors if they could charge the same?
This is either seriously bad business, OR a proof that GM knows that a Vette isn't perceived by the target audience as having the same brand value as Ps and F's.
2) Is the build quality really up there with Porsche? Is this a one-off for GM or will they keep up the performance while keeping the price down?
Only time will tell.
I believe a potential Vette owner will be either
a) dreaming of a Porsche or Ferrari, but cant float the bill, or
b) realizes that he doesnt want to pay that much for a brand - he/she just wants a damn fine car.
Personally, I dont believe there are many people out there who will be both potential Vette and Porsche/Ferrari buyers at the same time.
If you're into IWC watches you don't buy a Seiko because it has more features. (And I'm not comparing Seiko to Vette...so dont blow your fuses, thank you).
When all is said and done, it's all down to the driver and his skills.
I just went tracking again, and once more I got a lot of proof that driving skills and focus is everything.
Besides, I saw a Murcielago and brand new F430 F1...just sitting on the paddock next to the track...and the guys never tracked them.
There should be a law against that!
So better get a Vette and have some fun, than tucking your F or P away in the garage.
well... as Porsche and IWC owner I would certainly belong to the apparently rare category of people who would also consider buying a Corvette z06. IMO it is decent looking, has excellent performance, decent safety (anyone ever seen a crahtest of c6 or 996 which would allow to conclude one is safer than the other? I havent) and offers great value for money.
I could afford buying a 997tt but wont do it cause i think 150000 euro are a lot for any car in the first place and even more so for a 997tt if i see how limited the improvement is over the 996 version will be. Porsche (like BMW imo) are pulling the leg of the customers - no wonder their margins are as great as they are. but thanks, i'm not gonna help to improve them. I might consider buying a used 997tt at the right price due to its undoubtable qualities, but that would be considerably less than sticker price.
I think companies like Porsche should understand that at least some of their clients do not need their badge on the hood to feel or be 'cool' and trendy. They dont make the driver, it's the other way round! so they should feel privileged if the 'right' people drive their car and be worried if these same people start consider looking at other makes - and not because of their cachet, but because of their qualities!
cheers
Apr 26, 2006 10:06:18 PM
- bondmid003
- Pilot
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- Loc: La Jolla, CA , United States
- Posts: 378, Gallery
- Registered on: Mar 10, 2006
- Reply to: turbolite
Re: New C6 Z06 is so fast that...
Quote:
turbolite said:Quote:
Dr. Phil said:
I believe this is simply the same debate we had since twe first saw the numbers on the new Z06 - and later had the most memorable (hehe...) debate about the Magnussen run on NBR.
There is no doubt in my mind, that you get a LOT of bangg for your buck in the new Vette. Almost every serious car mag out there think so - American as well as European.
There is also no doubt, that this car is a threat to the Porsches, Ferraris, Lambos- and what have you - out there when it comes to performance.
It will smoke some and be darn close to others. Straightline as well as on track.
BUT - and there are 2 BUTs here:
1) As a brand the Vette isn't up there with the Porsches, Ferraris etc. And the easiest way to prove this is not thru brand audits, polls, analysis or other ways of measuring a brand's value, but the mere fact that GM only charges around half of what P and F charges for a car that can do the same performance-wise.
Why only charge half of their competitors if they could charge the same?
This is either seriously bad business, OR a proof that GM knows that a Vette isn't perceived by the target audience as having the same brand value as Ps and F's.
2) Is the build quality really up there with Porsche? Is this a one-off for GM or will they keep up the performance while keeping the price down?
Only time will tell.
I believe a potential Vette owner will be either
a) dreaming of a Porsche or Ferrari, but cant float the bill, or
b) realizes that he doesnt want to pay that much for a brand - he/she just wants a damn fine car.
Personally, I dont believe there are many people out there who will be both potential Vette and Porsche/Ferrari buyers at the same time.
If you're into IWC watches you don't buy a Seiko because it has more features. (And I'm not comparing Seiko to Vette...so dont blow your fuses, thank you).
When all is said and done, it's all down to the driver and his skills.
I just went tracking again, and once more I got a lot of proof that driving skills and focus is everything.
Besides, I saw a Murcielago and brand new F430 F1...just sitting on the paddock next to the track...and the guys never tracked them.
There should be a law against that!
So better get a Vette and have some fun, than tucking your F or P away in the garage.
well... as Porsche and IWC owner I would certainly belong to the apparently rare category of people who would also consider buying a Corvette z06. IMO it is decent looking, has excellent performance, decent safety (anyone ever seen a crahtest of c6 or 996 which would allow to conclude one is safer than the other? I havent) and offers great value for money.
I could afford buying a 997tt but wont do it cause i think 150000 euro are a lot for any car in the first place and even more so for a 997tt if i see how limited the improvement is over the 996 version will be. Porsche (like BMW imo) are pulling the leg of the customers - no wonder their margins are as great as they are. but thanks, i'm not gonna help to improve them. I might consider buying a used 997tt at the right price due to its undoubtable qualities, but that would be considerably less than sticker price.
I think companies like Porsche should understand that at least some of their clients do not need their badge on the hood to feel or be 'cool' and trendy. They dont make the driver, it's the other way round! so they should feel privileged if the 'right' people drive their car and be worried if these same people start consider looking at other makes - and not because of their cachet, but because of their qualities!
cheers
Well said Turbolite, the car doesn't make the man, the man makes the car.
Apr 26, 2006 10:22:45 PM
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Dr. Phil
- Rennteam Master
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- Loc: Denmark , Denmark
- Posts: 5884, Gallery
- Registered on: Nov 30, 2004
- Reply to: bondmid003
Re: New C6 Z06 is so fast that...
Quote:
bondmid003 said:
Well said Turbolite, the car doesn't make the man, the man makes the car.
Well, in that case it would appear that a lot of men made Porsche.
At least enough men over time has made Porsche the most profitable car company around.
Turbolite, as you are well aware, we all have different reasons for buying a particular car - I dont believe I stated that ALL people buy P or F cars for a particular reason.
I'm saying there is a reason why GM do not charge more for the Vette...and I believe it's a simple matter of brand value.
I believe you're part of a minority, being able to buy an expensive Porsche but opting for a much more inexpensive Vette.
If you weren't the streets would be flooded with Vettes and there would be very few Porsches in the streets.
Apr 26, 2006 10:55:46 PM
- bondmid003
- Pilot
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- Loc: La Jolla, CA , United States
- Posts: 378, Gallery
- Registered on: Mar 10, 2006
- Reply to: Dr. Phil
Re: New C6 Z06 is so fast that...
Quote:
Dr. Phil said:Quote:
bondmid003 said:
Well said Turbolite, the car doesn't make the man, the man makes the car.
Well, in that case it would appear that a lot of men made Porsche.
At least enough men over time has made Porsche the most profitable car company around.
Turbolite, as you are well aware, we all have different reasons for buying a particular car - I dont believe I stated that ALL people buy P or F cars for a particular reason.
I'm saying there is a reason why GM do not charge more for the Vette...and I believe it's a simple matter of brand value.
I believe you're part of a minority, being able to buy an expensive Porsche but opting for a much more inexpensive Vette.
If you weren't the streets would be flooded with Vettes and there would be very few Porsches in the streets.
Honestly how many Z's do you think there are in your home country of Denmark? Brand value is a double edged sword, a company that makes the vast majority of its cars for the average person still has the ability to put together one amazing automobile (i.e. Z06 and F GT). At the same time a company that makes the vast majority of its cars for the extremely wealthy can still put out a piece of junk (i.e. Lambo Jalpa). In my opinion Porsche makes amazing automobiles but lets not forget that it wasn't too long ago that not every Porsche was priced for the wealthy because I see plenty of 944s running around here in the states. So i'll say that just because the Z is made by Chevy doesn't mean its made on the same assembly line as a Lumina. The car is hand assembled alongside XLRs and its engine is handbuilt for crying out loud.
Apr 26, 2006 11:02:33 PM
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RC
- Rennteam Administrator
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- Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany
- Posts: 59590, Gallery
- Registered on: Mar 26, 2002
- Reply to: bondmid003
Re: New C6 Z06 is so fast that...
Quote:
RC said:Quote:
bondmid003 said:
Well said Turbolite, the car doesn't make the man, the man makes the car.
I'm afraid this is not correct: the workers at the factory make the car.
Never before have truer words been spoken on this board. Just ask the owner of any US-built Mercedes or Mexican-built VW...
I always wondered how VW could have such a poor reputation in the US (whereas they are THE quality benchmark in the European non-luxury market) until I actually got into one. A million monkeys on a million assembly lines would have done a better job.
Re: New C6 Z06 is so fast that...
Quote:
The Groom said:Quote:
RC said:Quote:
bondmid003 said:
Well said Turbolite, the car doesn't make the man, the man makes the car.
I'm afraid this is not correct: the workers at the factory make the car.
Never before have truer words been spoken on this board. Just ask the owner of any US-built Mercedes or Mexican-built VW...
I always wondered how VW could have such a poor reputation in the US (whereas they are THE quality benchmark in the European non-luxury market) until I actually got into one. A million monkeys on a million assembly lines would have done a better job.
Very true. My cousin from Toronto drives a Golf as a beater. When he came to visit, he took a totally standard 90 HP TDI Golf as a rental vehicle (slow...). Funny thing is, he was really amazed.
He couldn't believe how well the car was made, compared to his Mexican.
Re: New C6 Z06 is so fast that...
Quote:
Dr. Phil said:Quote:
bondmid003 said:
Well said Turbolite, the car doesn't make the man, the man makes the car.
Well, in that case it would appear that a lot of men made Porsche.
At least enough men over time has made Porsche the most profitable car company around.
Turbolite, as you are well aware, we all have different reasons for buying a particular car - I dont believe I stated that ALL people buy P or F cars for a particular reason.
I'm saying there is a reason why GM do not charge more for the Vette...and I believe it's a simple matter of brand value.
I believe you're part of a minority, being able to buy an expensive Porsche but opting for a much more inexpensive Vette.
If you weren't the streets would be flooded with Vettes and there would be very few Porsches in the streets.
....you also have to consider Corvettes biggest market, the U.S., and the legions of buyers that keep buying the latest Corvette, who owned previous generations, and the prices they paid for those previous generations. If the base C6 at around $45,000, all of a sudden cost $90,000, the market would dry up. The Z06 is really a specialty model and priced accordingly.
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