Apr 22, 2006 9:37:34 PM
- 964C2
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- Loc: Dallas, TX , United States
- Posts: 1825, Gallery
- Registered on: May 11, 2004
- Reply to: londondude
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Board: Porsche - 911 - 997
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Apr 22, 2006 10:51:02 PM
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Carlos from Spain
- Rennteam Moderator
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- Loc: Spain. , Spain
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- Registered on: Feb 9, 2003
- Reply to: 964C2
Re: PSM anyone switch it off?
Quote:
964C2 said:
I'd like to add one other fact to this discussion....Porsche has done a lot of testing of cars with PSM "Off" and have found that in no way will it increase the size of your [censored]
LOL!
Very true, scientifically proven, in fact here is an "after driving with PSM OFF photo" of the test subject... see for yourself!!
Re: PSM anyone switch it off?
Quote:
taffy said:
Your reactions are quicker than PSM ........sorry give me a second whilst i pick myself up from the floor...this argument has become farcical...psm is there for a reason and to think you are a superior enough being not to need it will eventually cause yours or someone elses demise.......i hope i am nowhere near you when this happens.....
You wont be. I do not think it, I know it now. You sadly need to be more open minded and not judge others by your own limiting beliefs.
Re: PSM anyone switch it off?
Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
F1reblade said:Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
F1reblade said:
You need my TTS, PSM only comes in after the event and it gives you the biggest thrills just sorting its mess out.
By definition, ESP systems like PSM do come in after the event, because they are not equipped with a crystal ball. They react to signals from various sensors not "matching up", suggesting that the car has become unstable.
Exactly my point PSM is so bad that it causes the problem my arthritic mother could react too faster, hence PSM is dangerous to a good driver in a 911.
You imply in your posts that you have had a nasty moment, which you apparently blame on the PSM system, but as far as I can see you have not described the circumstances. PSM will not prevent a car from becoming initially unstable, it can only intervene after it detects instability to try to correct the situation by applying the appropriate inputs. A well-tuned ESP system, such as PSM is, can be better relied on to apply the right corrective inputs than any driver can: For instance, there are no drivers out there capable of braking individual wheels as PSM does. see above
Nevertheless, PSM is not totally foolproof, because some situations can be so bad that neither the best driver nor PSM could prevent a spin. But that situation will have been initially allowed to come about by the driver, and not by the PSM. It can only react, remember?
In spite of the above defense of ESP systems, I am not unreservedly a fan. I think there is a risk of drivers deluding themselves into thinking that they are immortal because ESP will save them if they switch off their own brains. Those drivers are - like ESP - also not equipped with crystal balls, but they are better equipped than ESP to predict the outcome of "overenthusiastic" driving. Having more balls (non-crystal variety) than brains was never a good recipe for survival.
I can assure you that to imply I am stupid will not win any illconcieved techy argument, you try to put forward. I will not and do not need to reiterate my situation to you or anyone else except maybe the courts over PSM and for your info there was no accident, nor was it in any way dangerous , untill PSM came in at which point I had to save the car! and no the PSM light has never lit in my car and no it is not faulty according to Porsche and their tech's.
I have even recreated the exact situation with a Porsche tech sitting beside me, I was describing the entire procedure at the same time and he said OMG thats a joke. I said "surly this is a fault" and he said no thats normal PSM he said " turn off PSM when you drive your reaction is so much faster than PSM"
So an apology would be the proper thing to doIf your man enough
I do have the feeling that I'm probably wasting my time, but just in case you may have misread the "tone" of my first post - prompting you to respond in what you thought was the "appropriate" manner, I'd like to respond to the above.
- I did not suggest in my post that you were stupid. I had not read anything into your first post to make me think that you are stupid. On re-reading my post I don't recognize any implication on my part that you are stupid.
- You implied in 2 posts that you had experienced a "situation" with PSM. While admitting that that aroused my curiosity, I agree that you are under no obligation to elaborate further here. But you were the one who brought the matter up in the first place, not me.
- If I felt I had wronged you in any way, then I can assure you that I would certainly be man enough to apologize to you. Since I know I have not, there will not be an apology made on my part.
I think if you recheck the bold above you were addressing my post and implying things!!
Re: PSM anyone switch it off?
Quote:
F1reblade said:Quote:
fritz said:
In spite of the above defense of ESP systems, I am not unreservedly a fan. I think there is a risk of drivers deluding themselves into thinking that they are immortal because ESP will save them if they switch off their own brains. Those drivers are - like ESP - also not equipped with crystal balls, but they are better equipped than ESP to predict the outcome of "overenthusiastic" driving. Having more balls (non-crystal variety) than brains was never a good recipe for survival.
I think if you recheck the bold above you were addressing my post and implying things!!
The bold text above represents GENERAL observations I have made and views I have held before I ever read your post. I had not read anything into your post to suggest that some unspecified situation you had experienced was a result of "overenthusiasm" on your part.
I just made that statement to make it clear that I am myself - in spite of my "defense" of them in the post - not a blind fan of ESP systems, because I can see their potential for misleading drivers into getting in over their heads.
Re: PSM anyone switch it off?
Quote:
F1reblade said:Quote:
taffy said:
Your reactions are quicker than PSM ........sorry give me a second whilst i pick myself up from the floor...this argument has become farcical...psm is there for a reason and to think you are a superior enough being not to need it will eventually cause yours or someone elses demise.......i hope i am nowhere near you when this happens.....
You wont be. I do not think it, I know it now. You sadly need to be more open minded and not judge others by your own limiting beliefs.
That's put my mind at rest the last thing the Porsche marque needs are drivers with egos bigger than their abilities.....
And before you berate my abilities i know my limits having raced and rallied motor vehicles in the past...consequently i drive well within the limits of myself and my cars so ensuring i and other road users around me stay safe..
Can you honestly say the same ....not if you drive with the security devices switched off on the queens highway.....
Good luck ...sometime soon you will need it.....
Re: PSM anyone switch it off?
Quote:
taffy said:
Hmm.......or they don't race because they acknowledge that they have no ability....
I do treat clients like you, the ones with an inferiority complex and make them accept their limitations and to love themselves, inadequacies and all, just like yours and indeed they accept that the dream of being a winner in a limited form may finally be achieved and that being known and respected in a very small way in a forum as a racer, is for you the peak of your abilities and therefore you should now recognise this and embrace it.
Apr 23, 2006 10:58:07 PM
- Eggplant Cab
- Junior
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- Loc: Los Angeles CA
- Posts: 50, Gallery
- Registered on: Apr 18, 2006
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Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: PSM anyone switch it off?
That's precisely it. The unfortunate truth about marketing is that someone will believe it. There are many situations where nothing but divine intervention could save. PSM is pretty much getting the subtler marketing version of ABS in the 80s. How many people thought their braking distance was halved cos they had ABS?
I personally don't turn off PSM. I know I have good driving skills but after seeing a guy plow into the side of a canyon due to oversteer and then bounce to the edge of the side of the road (only to be stopped by the guardrail). Oncoming traffic also collided with other cars head on because of that [censored]. Well PSM or not, going over 90% is stupid on certain roads.
The main point of PSM is that it intervenes when the driver mucks up past 100%. On a public road, why would anyone be at 100+% of adhesion? Even if there is no one around when you crash. That oil slick you leave behind could cause another accident. Powerslides are fun, but if someone oncoming doesn't share your schumacher like reflexes, you are adding grief to someone else and that's just irresponsible.
JJblade sexual orientation has nothing to do with one's ability to drive the car or being irresponsible in endangering other people's lives. The fact is that guys with real talent and driving ability can drive without PSM on a track. The problem is that too many other guys think they are as good as the pros and press beyond the cars and their own ability. If anyone were as good as they claim, they'd be competing against the likes of Haywood and Schumacher and not telling everyone on a web forum how good they are at the wheel and using expletives to make a point. But I fear that point is lost on you.;w
I personally don't turn off PSM. I know I have good driving skills but after seeing a guy plow into the side of a canyon due to oversteer and then bounce to the edge of the side of the road (only to be stopped by the guardrail). Oncoming traffic also collided with other cars head on because of that [censored]. Well PSM or not, going over 90% is stupid on certain roads.
The main point of PSM is that it intervenes when the driver mucks up past 100%. On a public road, why would anyone be at 100+% of adhesion? Even if there is no one around when you crash. That oil slick you leave behind could cause another accident. Powerslides are fun, but if someone oncoming doesn't share your schumacher like reflexes, you are adding grief to someone else and that's just irresponsible.
JJblade sexual orientation has nothing to do with one's ability to drive the car or being irresponsible in endangering other people's lives. The fact is that guys with real talent and driving ability can drive without PSM on a track. The problem is that too many other guys think they are as good as the pros and press beyond the cars and their own ability. If anyone were as good as they claim, they'd be competing against the likes of Haywood and Schumacher and not telling everyone on a web forum how good they are at the wheel and using expletives to make a point. But I fear that point is lost on you.;w
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
Thast my point, there are other cars and circumstances in the public roads besides yourself. A car suddently gets in collision course with you under the rain coming out of the corner and everybody will benefit from PSM. Its not fool proof, you can't RELY on it to do things you wouldn't do without PSM, but it significantly increases active safety.
You say you don't drive 10/10ths on the streets, thats a good thing, because the public streets are not for driving at 10/10ths. But why do you switch the PSM off then? seems like a contradiction, if you don't drive to the limits of PSM activation why you it bother you so much that you need to switch it off? its doesn't add up.
As to my driving record, I started driving bikes and cars since 10-11 yoa, I'm 33 yoa now and I have had no accident in "public streets" the only incident was a couple of years ago sitting stopped in a traffic jam were I got a minor bumper to bumper rearended because the guy behind didn't brake correctly. Thats all. On the contrary you say you have had accidents, and you support turning PSM off for street driving?... another contradiction, I suggest you leave it ON.
That aside, I sorry about your shoulder & elbow, and hope you get well soon
Re: PSM anyone switch it off?
Quote:
fritz said:
I do have the feeling that I'm probably wasting my time, but just in case you may have misread the "tone" of my first post - prompting you to respond in what you thought was the "appropriate" manner, I'd like to respond to the above.
- I did not suggest in my post that you were stupid. I had not read anything into your first post to make me think that you are stupid. On re-reading my post I don't recognize any implication on my part that you are stupid.
- You implied in 2 posts that you had experienced a "situation" with PSM. While admitting that that aroused my curiosity, I agree that you are under no obligation to elaborate further here. But you were the one who brought the matter up in the first place, not me.
Re: PSM anyone switch it off?
Quote:
F1reblade said:Quote:
taffy said:
Hmm.......or they don't race because they acknowledge that they have no ability....
I do treat clients like you, the ones with an inferiority complex and make them accept their limitations and to love themselves, inadequacies and all, just like yours and indeed they accept that the dream of being a winner in a limited form may finally be achieved and that being known and respected in a very small way in a forum as a racer, is for you the peak of your abilities and therefore you should now recognise this and embrace it.
Hmmm.........inferior , inadequate , loser ......you make many assumptions based upon your so called knowledge of the human psyche,all way off the mark,nice try though.......
And who may i ask treats you as i think it may be time for an increase of your medication.As for respect, i am more than comfortable with myself so respect from complete strangers is not high on my list of want's or needs.....i have no need unlike your good self to announce on a forum of my superheroic driving ability to try and make myself feel important.
This baiting is now detracting from the original topic so i will say no more .......cya
Re: PSM anyone switch it off?
Quote:
F1reblade said:
I hope all you guys scared of drivers who switch off PSM.
Complain to Porsche and the government and have all Porsche without PSM banned from the roads!!
Fortunately, it is really never off. Get one or two wheels where the ABS is needed (depending on which mode you are in) and it will come on automatically. Surprising no one has said "ABS how to switch it off".
Apr 25, 2006 3:46:57 PM
- Rafael from Spain
- Junior
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- Loc: Madrid, Spain
- Posts: 73, Gallery
- Registered on: May 16, 2005
- Reply to: vtrader
Re: PSM anyone switch it off?
This is getting into a black or white topic.
It is not that PSM should be on or off all time and there is not another possibility.
What I do not understand is people that get on the car and switch it off no matter where they are going to drive. There are circumstances where PSM could be off and there are others where it should be on like high-speed motorway driving.
Anyone claiming that PSM interferes with his high-speed driving with traffic should really re-think his respect for life.
On a country road you know very well, on circumstances you can anticipate I do not see any problem against switching it off.
Sometimes life is not black or white there are circumstances in between.
PS About the never off. If you turn it off in sport mode, things could be way out of any control much before you react to activate ABS, this feature is great for track driving where it takes a little bit longer to run out of the track than from a traffic lane.
It is not that PSM should be on or off all time and there is not another possibility.
What I do not understand is people that get on the car and switch it off no matter where they are going to drive. There are circumstances where PSM could be off and there are others where it should be on like high-speed motorway driving.
Anyone claiming that PSM interferes with his high-speed driving with traffic should really re-think his respect for life.
On a country road you know very well, on circumstances you can anticipate I do not see any problem against switching it off.
Sometimes life is not black or white there are circumstances in between.
PS About the never off. If you turn it off in sport mode, things could be way out of any control much before you react to activate ABS, this feature is great for track driving where it takes a little bit longer to run out of the track than from a traffic lane.
Apr 26, 2006 8:27:08 AM
- F1reblade
- Newbie
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- Loc: Nottingham, UK
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- Registered on: Feb 9, 2006
- Reply to: Rafael from Spain
Re: PSM anyone switch it off?
PSM was not fitted to early 996 GT2 and all 996 GT3.
Ask youself why, does this make all these owner drivers irresponsable or do they have skills beyond the average or are they just accidents waiting to happen, is Porsche irresponsable for selling such cars. as it seems judging by the previous responses no one is better than PSM!!
Ask youself why, does this make all these owner drivers irresponsable or do they have skills beyond the average or are they just accidents waiting to happen, is Porsche irresponsable for selling such cars. as it seems judging by the previous responses no one is better than PSM!!
Re: PSM anyone switch it off?
Were those cars not designed specifically with track use in mind where PSM would be a hindrance.
Not all GT2/3 owners are track enthusiasts or great drivers(and not all track enthusiast are or will ever be great drivers either).I would imagine that the majority of owners could enjoy their cars more if they were safe in the knowledge that should they get it wrong there is some sort of safety back-up to help out.
No Porsche was not irresponsible but i think that they have learn't a few things along the way and have the customers utmost safety in mind
Not all GT2/3 owners are track enthusiasts or great drivers(and not all track enthusiast are or will ever be great drivers either).I would imagine that the majority of owners could enjoy their cars more if they were safe in the knowledge that should they get it wrong there is some sort of safety back-up to help out.
No Porsche was not irresponsible but i think that they have learn't a few things along the way and have the customers utmost safety in mind
Apr 26, 2006 9:03:51 PM
- Rafael from Spain
- Junior
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- Loc: Madrid, Spain
- Posts: 73, Gallery
- Registered on: May 16, 2005
- Reply to: F1reblade
Re: PSM anyone switch it off?
Quote:
F1reblade said:
PSM was not fitted to early 996 GT2 and all 996 GT3.
Ask youself why, does this make all these owner drivers irresponsable or do they have skills beyond the average or are they just accidents waiting to happen, is Porsche irresponsable for selling such cars. as it seems judging by the previous responses no one is better than PSM!!
Did you think this reply?
New GT3 still has not PSM if you want to keep your line of thought.
My point is if you have it why disconnect it inside town or at high speed motorway driving where it will never spoil the driving and could save your life?
I would never buy a car where PSM/ESP could not be switch off (as I do swich it off when I know what I am doing), but if it comes why not bennefit from it?
PS I do think Porsche are somewhat irresponsible selling a GT2, GT3 to anybody that wants it, they should make mandadatory a training course and decide. Not good for company numbers but could save some injures to people
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