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JJBlade said:
It is a case of if my car slides I want it to slide and have deliberately set out to make it do so. If PSM is on I can't do this so I turn it off. The car won't be sliding unless I want it to so who cares that it is off?
Apr 21, 2006 5:18:07 PM
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JJBlade said:
It is a case of if my car slides I want it to slide and have deliberately set out to make it do so. If PSM is on I can't do this so I turn it off. The car won't be sliding unless I want it to so who cares that it is off?
) and definetely not the first who kills somebody else who wasn't even involved with your fun.Apr 21, 2006 5:34:42 PM
).Apr 21, 2006 8:43:19 PM
Apr 21, 2006 8:45:48 PM
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Gary No Cal said:
Amusing tread... I can't resist adding my two cents. Just last week I went for a ride in a 997 S with David Donahue (Mark's son and current Grand Am prototype pilot) driving. Right behind us was another identical 997 S with Hurley Haywood behind the wheel. Hurley is one of the most successful endurance racers of all time (mostly Porsches). We were at full race speeds with slight drifts through most corners. Hurley was on our butt about a half foot back in the tight corners. It was fascinating to be a passenger and watch a professional driver modulate the throttle and brake for the cars optimal dynamic balance and maximum speed .... Yes we were on a track, Porsche North America's track for PDE. PSM was always on. These guys can drive circles around me and most likely everyone else on this tread and they didn't need to turn PSM off to go fast. A Porsche properly used is unbelievable fast, perhaps even faster with PSM on.
I am on my third 911 since 1976 and I have experienced snap over steer on the street more times than I want to admit. I'm fortunate I didn't kill myself or someone else. I have never even thought of turning PSM off on the street. I view it much like ABS, technology that can save my butt. I do turn it off for track events and autocross. However, after doing PDE, I am going to experiment on the track with it on and off. I have done it both ways at an autocross and the car does experience too much throttle reduction with PSM on. So it is best off for those events. But for the street... the only reason for it off is to impress a 'new girl friend' or to fool yourself with your "great car control."
Apr 22, 2006 12:51:34 AM
Quote:
Gary No Cal said:
Amusing tread... I can't resist adding my two cents. Just last week I went for a ride in a 997 S with David Donahue (Mark's son and current Grand Am prototype pilot) driving. Right behind us was another identical 997 S with Hurley Haywood behind the wheel. Hurley is one of the most successful endurance racers of all time (mostly Porsches). We were at full race speeds with slight drifts through most corners. Hurley was on our butt about a half foot back in the tight corners. It was fascinating to be a passenger and watch a professional driver modulate the throttle and brake for the cars optimal dynamic balance and maximum speed .... Yes we were on a track, Porsche North America's track for PDE. PSM was always on. These guys can drive circles around me and most likely everyone else on this tread and they didn't need to turn PSM off to go fast. A Porsche properly used is unbelievable fast, perhaps even faster with PSM on.
I am on my third 911 since 1976 and I have experienced snap over steer on the street more times than I want to admit. I'm fortunate I didn't kill myself or someone else. I have never even thought of turning PSM off on the street. I view it much like ABS, technology that can save my butt. I do turn it off for track events and autocross. However, after doing PDE, I am going to experiment on the track with it on and off. I have done it both ways at an autocross and the car does experience too much throttle reduction with PSM on. So it is best off for those events. But for the street... the only reason for it off is to impress a 'new girl friend' or to fool yourself wi
th your "great car control."
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964C2 said:
Sliding may be fun, or look "cool" to the "Fast & Furious" crowd, but it's the "slow way" around a race track.
This is because these 'PSM' type devices inhibit a good driver from getting a car set up for a corner on entry and exiting it properly.Quote:
JJBlade said: For fucks sake guys stop being such a bunch of homosexuals and let the car slide. Even on track in 3rd gear at 110mph as the rear came round and I thought well that is nigh on impossible to retrieve it came back smoothly.
Apr 22, 2006 1:56:25 PM
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JJBlade said:
What a load of bollocks.
Every Porsche instructor I have ever been with in the UK admits that if you are a good driver, that PSM interferes with your enjoyment of the car.
Why do so many people on this thread keep talking such [censored] ?
Once the car steps out of line PSM hits you on the head like a really over hand nasty school bully. It is so shocking it scares the [censored] out of me when I least expect it.
If PSM is off the car slides and you turn the steering wheel into the slide and nothing unexpected happens.
For fucks sake guys stop being such a bunch of homosexuals and let the car slide. Even on track in 3rd gear at 110mph as the rear came round and I thought well that is nigh on impossible to retrieve it came back smoothly.
I have never once spun the car and that is in 20 mph 1st gear foot to the floor corners and 3rd gear lift off ones.
Get a [censored] grip !
Apr 22, 2006 2:16:55 PM
Apr 22, 2006 3:23:02 PM
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F1reblade said:
By your own admission, that is driver error and I rest my case.
Apr 22, 2006 3:48:28 PM
Apr 22, 2006 3:55:14 PM
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Carlos from Spain said:Quote:
F1reblade said:
By your own admission, that is driver error and I rest my case.
Re-read again... if someone cuts in your path, its not your driver error, neither is if you encounter a oil spill in the exit of a corner or if a kid crosses your path chasing after a ball.
Also, its interesting that behind the internet you have all sorts of Michael Schumachers with flawless driving at 10/10ths... please. I have never crashed a car or bike in the public street inspite my sporty driving style so I have a pretty good record but I'm not that conceided so as to think I don't make mistakes.
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F1reblade said:
You need my TTS, PSM only comes in after the event and it gives you the biggest thrills just sorting its mess out.
Apr 22, 2006 5:26:19 PM
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F1reblade said:
Ok I reread both of your posts and I quote "In my case it was with the 996 under rain in a very dangerous road and an [censored] jumped into my lane while I was accelerating hard coming out of a turn. If you had been in my place without PSM, you would not be here posting today. " As I said I rest my case you had to rely on PSM.
I don,t drive at 10/10ths on the road to old for that now, it also seems strange that you have never had any accidents sounds like you know nothing about things called limits I normally find those sorts as the armchair critics and generally the rest of us have to spend time avoiding on road and track!!
I have not proported to be anything I am not! I have had accidents, I am in fact recovering from a rebuilt shoulder good old titanium and fractured left elbow at this moment and typing this hurts.
Apr 22, 2006 7:06:23 PM
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fritz said:Quote:
F1reblade said:
You need my TTS, PSM only comes in after the event and it gives you the biggest thrills just sorting its mess out.
By definition, ESP systems like PSM do come in after the event, because they are not equipped with a crystal ball. They react to signals from various sensors not "matching up", suggesting that the car has become unstable.
Exactly my point PSM is so bad that it causes the problem my arthritic mother could react too faster, hence PSM is dangerous to a good driver in a 911.
You imply in your posts that you have had a nasty moment, which you apparently blame on the PSM system, but as far as I can see you have not described the circumstances. PSM will not prevent a car from becoming initially unstable, it can only intervene after it detects instability to try to correct the situation by applying the appropriate inputs. A well-tuned ESP system, such as PSM is, can be better relied on to apply the right corrective inputs than any driver can: For instance, there are no drivers out there capable of braking individual wheels as PSM does. see above
Nevertheless, PSM is not totally foolproof, because some situations can be so bad that neither the best driver nor PSM could prevent a spin. But that situation will have been initially allowed to come about by the driver, and not by the PSM. It can only react, remember?
In spite of the above defense of ESP systems, I am not unreservedly a fan. I think there is a risk of drivers deluding themselves into thinking that they are immortal because ESP will save them if they switch off their own brains. Those drivers are - like ESP - also not equipped with crystal balls, but they are better equipped than ESP to predict the outcome of "overenthusiastic" driving. Having more balls (non-crystal variety) than brains was never a good recipe for survival.
If your man enough
Quote:
john999s said:
Interesting. I've totalled a car and had several bike crashes a few years ago-I'm a bit calmer these days-and I have lots of titanium in my arm, dodgy joints in my legs and shoulder. I have also lost the feeling in parts of that arm and the top of my hand. So I know how it feels when my ability falls short of my enthusiasm.
I use PSM and I am grateful for it, especially in the winter because even though I'm experienced I can still get caught out. If I could get the equivalent of PSM on my Ducati I would have it for road use because I still can be caught out.
Sorry to hear about your shoulder and elbow-I know how it feels. It took me nearly a year to get it all to more or less work again.
I expect that if I'd had PSM when I totalled the car I may well have avoided such a big accident and a year of pain.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I have the feeling that if I lose my 911 (or my bike) in a big way when having fun (lets face it we're often well into 3 figure miles per hour on corners sometimes) I will have to do some serious praying as well as using all my experience. And thank Porsche for its research and development of an electronic safety net which helps me when I run out of talent.
Quote:
F1reblade said:Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
F1reblade said:
You need my TTS, PSM only comes in after the event and it gives you the biggest thrills just sorting its mess out.
By definition, ESP systems like PSM do come in after the event, because they are not equipped with a crystal ball. They react to signals from various sensors not "matching up", suggesting that the car has become unstable.
Exactly my point PSM is so bad that it causes the problem my arthritic mother could react too faster, hence PSM is dangerous to a good driver in a 911.
You imply in your posts that you have had a nasty moment, which you apparently blame on the PSM system, but as far as I can see you have not described the circumstances. PSM will not prevent a car from becoming initially unstable, it can only intervene after it detects instability to try to correct the situation by applying the appropriate inputs. A well-tuned ESP system, such as PSM is, can be better relied on to apply the right corrective inputs than any driver can: For instance, there are no drivers out there capable of braking individual wheels as PSM does. see above
Nevertheless, PSM is not totally foolproof, because some situations can be so bad that neither the best driver nor PSM could prevent a spin. But that situation will have been initially allowed to come about by the driver, and not by the PSM. It can only react, remember?
In spite of the above defense of ESP systems, I am not unreservedly a fan. I think there is a risk of drivers deluding themselves into thinking that they are immortal because ESP will save them if they switch off their own brains. Those drivers are - like ESP - also not equipped with crystal balls, but they are better equipped than ESP to predict the outcome of "overenthusiastic" driving. Having more balls (non-crystal variety) than brains was never a good recipe for survival.
I can assure you that to imply I am stupid will not win any illconcieved techy argument, you try to put forward. I will not and do not need to reiterate my situation to you or anyone else except maybe the courts over PSM and for your info there was no accident, nor was it in any way dangerous , untill PSM came in at which point I had to save the car! and no the PSM light has never lit in my car and no it is not faulty according to Porsche and their tech's.
I have even recreated the exact situation with a Porsche tech sitting beside me, I was describing the entire procedure at the same time and he said OMG thats a joke. I said "surly this is a fault" and he said no thats normal PSM he said " turn off PSM when you drive your reaction is so much faster than PSM"
So an apology would be the proper thing to do
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