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    Apr 20, 2006 4:37:10 AM

    porschesky
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    porschesky
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    pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    One morning I started my 05' 911S and the check engine light goes on, so I take the car to the Porsche Dealership. After keeping it a day, they tell me that the car has been over-revved, there is metal in the oil pan and that if I continue to over-rev I may void the warranty. They also said there wasn't enough metal in the oil pan to justify rebuilding the engine.

    Now here's the problem:
    First of all I am the most meticulous driver of this car around. I have put 500 miles on the car since I bought it in December '05 and I have never, and I repeat never have beat on the car including racing, popping the clutch or over-revved the car. I told the dealer this and they said the on-board computer in the car doesn't lie. I asked them the dates of the alledged over-revs and they said they would have to send the computer to Germany for that. I was thinking that a few times the car has been in the dealership, maybe the car porters were messing with it or something. I'm sick about the whole thing and I don't know what to do. Any help greatly appreciated. I feel something is definately wrong here. The dealership told me the car was over-rev'd 8 times but like I said wouldn't tell me the dates. I was thinking the car has been back to the dealership 2 times for service and it also was at the dealership since it was a used car. So maybe the test drivers did this.

    Apr 20, 2006 5:12:09 AM

    SrfCity
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    Reply to: porschesky

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    They can tell you the car's been red-lined but they can't seem to verify it? Ask to see a copy of the read out. Take it somewhere else if you can't get proper satisfaction.

    BTW, when you take the car in for service(here anyway) they call later and bug you about the experience. According to my service guy he gets paid for good feedback. If you're dealer does these surveys tell them that you'll give them zeros if they don't smarten up.

    Apr 20, 2006 5:13:22 AM

    Dan L
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    Dan L
    Loc: Santa Barbara, CA , United States
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    Reply to: porschesky

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    You should have them document in detail the dates of this 'violation' particularly as it appears that they are starting to keep records on the car to provide them with an 'out' if something happens to the engine. (Of course, I can't understand how the 997 can be 'overreved' as there is a governor in there that prevents that from happening! I would DEFINITELY have them send whatever computer needs to be downloaded to Zuffenhausen and INSIST on a printout of what they find.

    You stated that it was a used automobile,--that certainly could be the source of that issue. Good luck.

    Dan

    Apr 20, 2006 6:55:52 AM

    jfraser
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    Reply to: Dan L

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    The printout doesn't have dates on it....I've had the readout performed on my car. First off, the data isn't user friendly (you'd need the tech to explain it to you, as it's not designed for Joe Public)...I don't think that it even captures dates, so I'm not sure what additional info Germany could pull from it. It's also difficult to say how many times the car has been overrevved, because I don't think that's how the computer collects the data. I believe that it captures the number of engine firing cycles (ie sparks from the spark plugs)the car been in an over rev condition.

    I seem to recall that there were 6 types of over runs the computer captures...Type 1 to 3 aren't serious and it's not unusual to see a number that runs into the thousands. Type 4 to 6 are the ones that are dangerous to the engine (I think any number in type 6 can spell problems)....but again a number of several hundred in type 4 still doesn't spell imminent doom.

    FYI it's ABSOLUTELY possible to overrev the engine...accelerate the car hard in 3rd and miss the shift to 4th & acceidently select 2nd....you've just overreved the engine!!

    You say the car was used...I think it would be reasonable to assume that the previous owner probably did this...I really can't see the dealership porters doing this to your car...first off, you've got to get the car going to a pretty decent speed before you can do something bad or you have to be a complete moron at changing gears...I've got to believe the dealership would recognise a porter that was that bad at driving!!

    Here's the rub....The control units capturing the data, don't lie, but equally they aren't that sophisticated (yet) in what and how much they record. The manufacturers aren't confident enough (yet) to 'hide' behind the data unless it's overwhelming,( a customer that has been seriously abusive to the car)....Which is why you got a warning about voiding the warranty (obviously your data is more marginal)....

    I'd recommend that you request a hard copy of the readout...and use this as a baseline....if in the future you have any further problems, it'll be pretty easy to see how many additional over revs have occurred.

    Since they are using the car data to 'prove a point' with you....if they were the dealership that sold you the car, flip it back at them....Ask them for a copy of the printout BEFORE the car was sold to you (they aren't going to have a copy} at which point you can turn round and say that there is a distinct possibility that they sold you a damaged car!!

    Apr 20, 2006 1:33:45 PM

    edz
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    Reply to: jfraser

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    Contact Porsche of North America and explain this to them, they will instruct the dealer what to do. A few years ago I had a problem with a water pump in a 928GTS. They replaced the water pump under warranty, 3 days after the warranty was over with only 2000 miles on the water pump, the water pump pulley broke off, which resulted in the timing belt breaking and consequently bending the valves. the dealer wanted $10,000 to fix the car and claimed the car was no longer under warranty. I was so pi$$ed called Porsche of North America and said okay no warranty, but 2000 miles on a water pump and it breaks???? Guess what, they split the cost with me which was better than nothing.

    Apr 20, 2006 1:53:59 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: edz

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    Find another dealership. You might be getting BS'ed.

    If a you came to me with a new Porsche and said you didn't overrev the engine I would believe you FIRST AND FOREMOST over the dealer who claimed they didn't have some snot-faced jerk on their staff who beat the sh*t out of the car before it was sold/delivered to you.

    WOW! I feel your pain. I'm wishing for the best outcome for you. ((( )))

    Apr 20, 2006 2:51:52 PM

    Trundle_GT3
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    Trundle_GT3
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    There are two readings:

    TYPE 1
    These are when you bump the rev-limiter

    TYPE 2
    These are mechanical over-revs (ie: a missed shift or wrong gear selected) and are the nasty ones which will void your warantee.

    Quote:
    porschesky said:
    One morning I started my 05' 911S and the check engine light goes on, so I take the car to the Porsche Dealership. After keeping it a day, they tell me that the car has been over-revved, there is metal in the oil pan and that if I continue to over-rev I may void the warranty. They also said there wasn't enough metal in the oil pan to justify rebuilding the engine.




    What strikes me odd about this post is the metal in the oil pan comments...
    CEL is resolved with the PIWIS system tester, never heard of draining the oil when a CEL comes on...
    If you can see metal with the naked eye as the oil comes out there is a serious problem!!

    500 miles on the car since Dec '05
    You are doing the car a diservice by not driving it.
    Why did you buy it in the first place??

    Apr 20, 2006 4:06:12 PM

    jfraser
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    jfraser
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    Reply to: Trundle_GT3

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    Trundle...Those two types you describe each have 3 subcategories (couldn't tell you what the subcats refer to )....I was surprised at how large my number was for the red line 'bump' type overruns .....as I've never felt the governor cut in (no big deal, as it doesn't have any negative effects on the engine...I'll put it down to spirited driving ).....I didn't have any figures in categories 3 to 6, which would have been the mechanical overspeeds..

    Apr 20, 2006 4:58:26 PM

    Trundle_GT3
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    Reply to: jfraser

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    Quote:
    jfraser said:
    Trundle...Those two types you describe each have 3 subcategories (couldn't tell you what the subcats refer to )....I was surprised at how large my number was for the red line 'bump' type overruns .....as I've never felt the governor cut in (no big deal, as it doesn't have any negative effects on the engine...I'll put it down to spirited driving ).....I didn't have any figures in categories 3 to 6, which would have been the mechanical overspeeds..



    First I've heard about subcategories

    You either bump the Rev-limiter (type 1)

    Or have a mechanical over-run (type2)

    Next time I'm hooked up to the PIWIS tester I'll take a pic.

    Here is what the PST2 would see:

    Apr 20, 2006 5:52:17 PM

    mikekenzo
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    mikekenzo
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    Reply to: Trundle_GT3

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    So when I accidently hit the rev limiter during my spirited driving, is that really a bad thing? I thought that the point of the limiter was to prevent damage so hitting it was of no real concern....

    Apr 20, 2006 5:55:35 PM

    911Fanatic
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    Reply to: Trundle_GT3

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    Trundle997S...i changed my oil at 10K and had very small metal shavings in the pan when i changed my oil. I have owned the car since new and have never bumped the rev limiter or had a mechanical overrev. should i have this checked out. several others have commented that this is normal for a new engine.

    Apr 20, 2006 6:07:57 PM

    edz
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    Reply to: mikekenzo

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    Quote:
    mikekenzo said:
    So when I accidently hit the rev limiter during my spirited driving, is that really a bad thing? I thought that the point of the limiter was to prevent damage so hitting it was of no real concern....



    A dumb question, how do you bump the rev limiter? Won't the engine cut out to avoid damages?

    Apr 20, 2006 6:13:25 PM

    mikekenzo
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    Reply to: edz

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    when I don't shift in time, and i hit the limiter (assuming this is somewhere in the red range of the tach, but i am not sure of the exact RPM #) the engine hiccups and I shift down, and punch it again....

    Apr 20, 2006 6:29:33 PM

    edz
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    Reply to: mikekenzo

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    Quote:
    mikekenzo said:
    when I don't shift in time, and i hit the limiter (assuming this is somewhere in the red range of the tach, but i am not sure of the exact RPM #) the engine hiccups and I shift down, and punch it again....



    Correct but when the limiter cut the engine out in time as it should why would there be any damages? I do not trust that dealer. Trust me in my 997 I have not bumped the limiter yet but in my Turbo I did it all the time and nothing ever happened.

    Apr 20, 2006 7:29:21 PM

    porschesky
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    Reply to: 911Fanatic

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    This is exactly what they told me. But the dealer said it was far from being normal. They told me that the RPMs were in the 6K range. Even if I missed a shift which on the highway I dont even drop gears as the 911 S pulls hard enough even in 5th gear this sounded odd to me. The car has 6K miles only. So why would there be metal shavings in the oil? Im pretty sure Porsche uses high tollerance limits, shaved metal means parts that are rubbing. So IM dont know....

    Apr 20, 2006 7:30:56 PM

    porschesky
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    Reply to: porschesky

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    I forgot to add that my 911S has only 5,900 miles on it

    Apr 20, 2006 7:37:49 PM

    Dubliner
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    Reply to: porschesky

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    And what's wrong with RPM's in the 6K range ? Aren't you supposed to late shift to get max torque ?

    Apr 20, 2006 7:57:57 PM

    porschesky
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    porschesky
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    Reply to: Trundle_GT3

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    Its my second car I drive it on weekends. As an update I sent an email to the Porsche dealership where I purchased it demanding a comparison of computer readouts as suggested in the posts here. I will bet that I bought this car already like this. I'm not sure what I can do at this point. But if they cannot give me a comparison of the computer read-out before I bought the car, I'm going to make them provide me with documentation that I purchased the car like this and maybe I can get an extended warranty from them. Any ideas or experience on what I can do would be very helpful. I'm still sooooo pissed off. I mean what can happen is that if I miss a shift one day on the highway, accidently and that light goes on again and they do the read out and this time something happens, all these other over-revs could be blamed on me and void the warranty. So now I have to be ultra careful or not even drive this car until I get some kind of action going.

    Apr 20, 2006 8:08:05 PM

    jfraser
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    Reply to: mikekenzo

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    Quote:
    mikekenzo said:
    So when I accidently hit the rev limiter during my spirited driving, is that really a bad thing? I thought that the point of the limiter was to prevent damage so hitting it was of no real concern....



    That's why the limiter is there, and no you aren't damaging the car.....All the computer is doing is collecting data, in the same way that it counts how many times the car has been started etc.....really, don't worry about this sort of stuff drive & enjoy

    Apr 20, 2006 8:16:49 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: porschesky

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    1. the motronic readout doesn't lie
    2. yes, the mishifts, for example when you accidentally downshift from 4th to 2nd instead of 3rd and engine over-revs (even for a very short time), these are the dangerous ones
    3. I doubt that sending the unit to Germany would unveil the precise dates when it happened
    4. get a copy for the printout for yourself, just in case you need to go to court sooner or later
    5. definetely contact PCNA about it, especially if you bought the car used
    6. I doubt that the mechanics at the dealership would over-rev the engine, unless they really hate you or they don't know what they're doing (meaning: there may be other "pending" cases, just in case you go to court)
    7. metal in the oil pan but not enough to justify rebuilding the engine? Sounds a little bit odd to me. Talk to PCNA about this.

    Since your car is still very new, I would definetely try to find a solution as fast as possible, chances are still good I'd say.

    Another question: do you have a "history" of 911 ownership? This may come to your advantage. How old are you? If you're not very young and this isn't your first sportscar, it may be in your advantage too.
    Good luck!

    BTW: a little hint for those who have the Sport Chrono installed. As far as I understand, the sport chrono package, when activated, has a faster and more "brutal" rev figure cut-off, just in case of over-revving the engine or even mishifts. I'm not sure if this 100% accurate but I remember somebody telling me that.

    Apr 20, 2006 8:20:29 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: porschesky

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    Quote:
    porschesky said:
    This is exactly what they told me. But the dealer said it was far from being normal. They told me that the RPMs were in the 6K range.



    Both 997 engines (3.6 and 3.8 liter) run to 7300 rpm.

    I think you have a communication problem with your dealer!?

    Apr 20, 2006 8:21:46 PM

    porschesky
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    Reply to: 911Fanatic

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    if you hear bak from anyone on this can you please send me a private message with what you heard?>Thanks

    Apr 20, 2006 8:23:03 PM

    porschesky
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    8K RPMS is what they said. Sorry my mistake on the post

    Apr 20, 2006 8:32:46 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: porschesky

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    Quote:
    porschesky said:
    8K RPMS is what they said. Sorry my mistake on the post



    The engine would only get up to 8000 rpm if somebody shifted DOWN to a gear which is too low for a given road speed. This is not just a question of "bumping" against the rev-limiter due to a late up-shift.

    Apr 20, 2006 8:38:03 PM

    Trundle_GT3
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    Reply to: porschesky

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    Quote:
    porschesky said:
    8K RPMS is what they said. Sorry my mistake on the post



    8k would be a substantial Type2 over run from a wrong gear chosen (oops I went to 2nd instead of 4th) and it only takes a moment.

    Apr 20, 2006 8:57:14 PM

    jfraser
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    porschesky said:
    8K RPMS is what they said. Sorry my mistake on the post





    The engine would only get up to 8000 rpm if somebody shifted DOWN to a gear which is too low for a given road speed. This is not just a question of "bumping" against the rev-limiter due to a late up-shift.



    Completely agree...8k could only be a mechanical over run (missed shift)

    Apr 20, 2006 9:00:11 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: Trundle_GT3

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    Quote:
    Trundle997S said:
    8k would be a substantial Type2 over run from a wrong gear chosen (oops I went to 2nd instead of 4th) and it only takes a moment.




    I know of one case here in Germany, a 996 GT3 driver who also used his car for club racing. He is a hotshot, no doubt about it. But he claims that he never over-revved the engine. Porsche refuses to pay for the engine, as far as I heard, the repair (new engine) is around 35000 Euro incl. install. Fact is: when racing, the driver is usually very concentrated on what is going on around him, all the shifting, clutch operation, etc. is working pretty much driven by experience and instinct. It can happen that somebody mis-shifts and doesn't notice it at all because the correction follows so fast, the adrenaline is pumping and when the race is over, most drivers don't even know how they passed the winning line. I know of cases when this happened.

    Apr 21, 2006 12:14:41 AM

    porschesky
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    Dealer just told me that this was a pre-existing condition. Stay tuned for further details...Heres what is was ... 2 hits in Range 4 (7,900-8,400 RPMS) Range 4=possible engine damage. Range 5= Engine damage. Dealer is giving me the song and dance about how the car is ok and they will check it out for damage. I told them this should have been done before selling me the car, not afterwards. I'm pressing for a new car. I should have bought new anyway. I hardly got a deal on this car...for about $6k more could have had new.

    Apr 21, 2006 1:08:40 AM

    Stephenkng
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    Reply to: porschesky

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    Could it be one of the PDE car???????

    Apr 21, 2006 3:11:09 AM

    Damian
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    Reply to: Trundle_GT3

    Re: pissed off. Check engine light over-revs....

    Quote:
    Trundle997S said:
    First I've heard about subcategories

    You either bump the Rev-limiter (type 1)

    Or have a mechanical over-run (type2)

    Next time I'm hooked up to the PIWIS tester I'll take a pic.

    Here is what the PST2 would see:





    Trundle997S- thanks for the insight....don't mean to put you on the spot but would the sample 34000 number of ignitions in pic above directly translate to:
    34000 ignitions/ 7400 rpm/ 6 cylinders = .77 minutes (45 seconds total) of rev-limiter bump?
    It could be a heck of a selling tool on a 997 resale if that PT2 data could be furnished to prospective buyers (well, if the data showed no category 3-6 reads ) ;


    Porschesky- sorry to hear about your hassle. It sounds like you've at least called their bluff. Keep a calendar log of dealer statements made by whom- in case the dispute goes to PCNA. I hope the dealer will now do a replacement engine at least.

    Just thinking out loud here.....someone with better analytical mind than me should consider if there's a way that the # of vehicle operating hours displayed on the PST2 readout can't be accurately calculated backwards against aggregate Average Miles per Hour over the life of the vehicle (if that stat is stored in ECU?) to establish at least--if not the DATE of the overrev-- pinpoint the MILEAGE at time of overrev (or would the *average* mph make it impossible to narrow down precise odometer reading at indicated hours?). sorry for wandering off/tangent...
     
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    Grant     		11244 55
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