Crown

apias:

Well, he would do long-term reliability testing, so, of course, he'd need to drive it constantly, in all seasons and conditions, long trips and short, ...

Would the IRS be so naive and gullible as to accept that? 

fritz

I don't know, but I guess the important question is, would the German tax authorities?

Probably not if his job title weren't something like Porsche Test Special Driver (PTSD).

How would they even know, is a better question.

They probably would automatically assume anyone working in the auto industry/sales gets a taxable car benefit, period.

noone1:

How would they even know, is a better question.

Never heard of tax audits?

fritz

Driving impressions of 911R by Jack Olsen who was invited by Porsche

Yes. I got to spend two days with Patrick Long and one other Porsche driver (who I can't name because of NDA agreements). I got time in the car on the Weissach skid pad and also the test track -- which is a pretty scary track to drive, very technical with lots of walls that would be moved farther back if it was a commercially-used facility. But I'm happy to say I brought the car back intact, and I'm going to get to drive it again in April on a stage of the historic Tour de France Automobile hillclimb race that was originally won by a 1969 911R.

Here are my driving impressions.

Obviously, it has less downforce and narrower tires than the GT3 RS. They put a diffuser in back, but I'm not sure how functional a piece like that is in corners, where body roll compromises its function. I believe they had to make some changes to the underbody kit up front to keep front and rear axle numbers compatible. I believe there is also a different (and more 'lively') programming for the rear steering on this model -- although I haven't seen that mentioned in the official literature.

Compared to the early 911 I'm used to driving, it's a very sure-footed car. But compared to the GT3 RS, up at speed, it's a lot more lively and engaging. The differences from aero are only going to be a factor in faster corners. But the tire-size differences and (possibly) rear-steering-programming differences give it a nimbler feel even in medium-speed corners. It's something you can toss around more easily than the GT3 RS (although again, all things are relative -- by 2400-lb 1972 is another animal altogether).

I liked that it was a 6-speed and not a 7-speed manual gearbox. I believe the gearing is lower than other manual transmissions Porsche makes (although, again, that might be incorrect -- I don't see it in the official literature). There is nothing faster than the paddles in the GT3 RS. But for driving in any kind of street situation, it makes (for me, at least) a better tactile experience to be using my right hand to upshift and downshift. It auto-blips downshifts in sport mode, but you can defeat that if you want to go for the full-on old-school feel.

The weight difference between the 911R and the GT3 RS is something I'd be hard-pressed to say I felt. Both are light by contemporary standards (and also heavy, relative to the 911 I drive). But I'm very happy to see Porsche making a new model that's lighter, and I hope they make good on their talk about getting out of the horsepower arms race and finding ways to reduce the weight (and size, if all my dreams came true) of future models. Modern Porsches feel very light on the track, because of the sophistication of their suspension systems. But I'd be thrilled to see them become actually lighter. There's no substitute for reduced mass when you take a car through a corner.

So which car would I own if I had the money and an allocation? It's not easy to answer. Porsche makes it clear that it does not see the 911R as primarily a track car. I don't think the half-cage is even an option on it. And if I were going to the track with one of these cars as often as I do with my 1972 911, then the GT3 RS would be my choice. You are either faster or slower on a track, and the GT3 RS is phenomenally rewarding to drive in those conditions. The paddles just amaze you as you go up or down. Everything about the car is positive.

For recreational street driving and even trips out with your wife, the 911R would be the easy winner. It's just so much fun to drive. There's more personality to its 'tossability' and rowing through the gears on a canyon road is a fundamentally different experience than tapping paddles. And while I fully understand the value of a big wing in 80+-mph corners, it's a different experience when you pull into a restaurant, where people might (in some way) lump you with the type of drivers to bolt wings to their Civics. Having no tail looks cleaner. It shows off the lines of the car better. And my wife would probably agree to sit in it.

Along those lines, I would say that the 911R would absolutely make a viable daily driver. Granted, I drive a 1972 911 with a cage around town, so my comfort level is pretty broad. But it's comfortable, not too loud (there's an exhaust button for when you want the sound to echo off the mountains), and it hasn't been stripped out so much that it feels unsafe or flimsy. It's got all that going for it -- and then it will feel a little more nimble and driver-controllable (if that makes sense) than the GT3 RS would on ordinary roads. So again, if I was a guy who was going to go to the track once a year but drive around my favorite roads more often, the 911R would be a Porsche that would be more rewarding, for me, connecting the heritage of the old cars with the technology of the new ones.

fritz:

noone1:

How would they even know, is a better question.

Never heard of tax audits?

I'm pretty sure if an auditor showed up and asked about the 918 in his driveway, I'm guessing his title as head of Porsche motorsport and head of the 918 project, or whatever, would be more than an adequate explanation for why he'd have one at any given time.

If you were an auditor, would you really try to prove that the head of the 918 program was inappropriately using a 918?

Whoopsy:

Well, what makes you think the 918 owners doesn't drive the shit out of theirs and hence you are a more worthy buyer of an R? This is the resentment that I don't get. Why does every other Porsche customers thinks they are better than the 918 buyers? 

I fully agree. 918 owners forked out $1M for a car, they are entitled to some privilege.  

I appreciate all your input by the way. 

noone1:

fritz:

noone1:

How would they even know, is a better question.

Never heard of tax audits?

I'm pretty sure if an auditor showed up and asked about the 918 in his driveway, I'm guessing his title as head of Porsche motorsport and head of the 918 project, or whatever, would be more than an adequate explanation for why he'd have one at any given time.

If you were an auditor, would you really try to prove that the head of the 918 program was inappropriately using a 918?

You have totally lost the plot. It's not a question of his entitlement to drive the car. It's just a matter of income tax being due for the privilege which, according to German tax rules, would lead to an inordinately exorbitant tax bill due to that tax being calculated on the basis of the list price of the car in question. 

fritz

Whoopsy:

Well, what makes you think the 918 owners doesn't drive the shit out of theirs and hence you are a more worthy buyer of an R? This is the resentment that I don't get. Why does every other Porsche customers thinks they are better than the 918 buyers? 

This is off-topic, but I think the resentment comes from the fact that some 918 owners on the forums talk about owning one as if it's some secret, elite, exclusive group of VIPs. With secret coy info and secret invite only FB groups or something like that. You yourself, Whoopsy, often use the word we when talking about things.

Mikla:

I cannot understand why Porsche is offering the old PCM technology in the R. How can a customer be satisfied with the old stuff if a basic Carrera brings the state of the art Porsche navigation and Car Play?

Are the customer who already ordered one concerned or you just don't care?

The R will get the latest state of the art version of the PCM with CarPlay.

The basic PCM has Google Earth and Search and stuff, at least in the European market, not sure all the Google stuff will make it to the North American market. 

But the CarPlay side is where the interesting stuff happening. Powerful integration with the owners' smartphone.

Nick, the resentment is generated by nothing more than envy. I believe 918 owners should get priority on all Porsche products. Many bought the 918 when enthusiasm for the car was tepid and the reviews less than complimentary. My issue is if they are selling a 100 cars to 918 owners they should increase the production by that amount for the regular Porsche customers. 

To me the R is the rip off of this century. All Porsche needs to do to generate unbridled passion among the Porsche enthusiasts is designate the model as special and they will pay through the nose to get one. They have more money than sense.

Christian, you would be crazy to buy one. Unless you plan to keep it as a collector item don't even think about it.

--

Of little, to make much: That is the dream of a human life.

Hi Whoopsy

Your comments re CarPlay in the R are intriguing.

All the photos of the R interior seem to show the old PCM, not the bigger screen and altered configuration of buttons of the 991.2 PCM.

Are you suggesting the 991.1 PCM can be firmware updated to run Car Play, or will the production version of the R have the new PCM?

Apologies if I am missing something!

regards

David

nberry:

Christian, you would be crazy to buy one. Unless you plan to keep it as a collector item don't even think about it.

Why would he be crazy to buy one if people are lining up in droves to spend $150K on normal Porsches? Surely if you get one and someone else doesn't, they'll pay through the ass in premium for one.

I'd buy one just to sell it the next day.

DJM48:

Hi Whoopsy

Your comments re CarPlay in the R are intriguing.

All the photos of the R interior seem to show the old PCM, not the bigger screen and altered configuration of buttons of the 991.2 PCM.

Are you suggesting the 991.1 PCM can be firmware updated to run Car Play, or will the production version of the R have the new PCM?

Apologies if I am missing something!

regards

David

The R will get the bigger screen of the updated PCM on 991.2, or the current Macan. 

991.1 PCM will not have the same functions unfortunately.

nberry:

Nick, the resentment is generated by nothing more than envy. I believe 918 owners should get priority on all Porsche products. Many bought the 918 when enthusiasm for the car was tepid and the reviews less than complimentary. My issue is if they are selling a 100 cars to 918 owners they should increase the production by that amount for the regular Porsche customers. 

To me the R is the rip off of this century. All Porsche needs to do to generate unbridled passion among the Porsche enthusiasts is designate the model as special and they will pay through the nose to get one. They have more money than sense.

Christian, you would be crazy to buy one. Unless you plan to keep it as a collector item don't even think about it.

--

 

Of little, to make much: That is the dream of a human life.

 

Well consider this, they were going to make only 600 initially, the rumoured number here was correct. 

Then they realized there are more than that number of 918 owners, so they increased it to 991, as in reality there are less than 918 918 owners, and the VIP program only applies to the USA market, which only sold 297 cars. So approximately 200-300 cars or so will go to the 'general public'. ROW market will perhaps allocate only one car to each 918 owner, even if they bought multiples, barring any special circumstances. 

Off to the 991.2 official launch in Sydney tonight.

Suspect most of the talk will be about a different car. Local press say 25 R's are coming Down Under.

David

noone1:

Whoopsy:

Well, what makes you think the 918 owners doesn't drive the shit out of theirs and hence you are a more worthy buyer of an R? This is the resentment that I don't get. Why does every other Porsche customers thinks they are better than the 918 buyers? 

This is off-topic, but I think the resentment comes from the fact that some 918 owners on the forums talk about owning one as if it's some secret, elite, exclusive group of VIPs. With secret coy info and secret invite only FB groups or something like that. You yourself, Whoopsy, often use the word we when talking about things.

The 918 was basically sitting unsold for 2+ years, ANYONE with a big enough bank account could have bought one.

The resentment is not just coming from those that cannot afford a 918, they are also coming from people who also passed up on it.

We basically had completely trust and faith in Porsche when we each paid them a million, and in return, they provided us with the best hypercard car in this generation.

You are partially correct in assuming this is a elite and exclusive society, with our purchase, Porsche rewarded us with secret information and plans, preferred treatment as a customer, etc. The street goes both ways and we willingly bound by them with NDAs and gentlemen's agreement on what they tell us. They hated the secret FB group, as we don't allow them access and they had no idea what we talked about. But they accepted it as at least they know the information they give will stay within limits. It is very useful for ROW owners, and even PCNA owners, as a lot of them had no idea what is possible or was provided with false information from their useless regional HQ. It's an avenue for owners to not missed out on stuff.

Is this any different than the select few P1 owners who gets to access privileged information from McLarne yet won't even share with their fellow P1 owners? We 918 owners at least share stuff within the ownership group. 

Many 918 owners already shut their mouth on Rennlist because of the resentment as yo can probably noticed. I could very well do the same here and there. But I am a car nut first and 918 owner second, I tried to post as much as I can, within limits. I am already one of the most vocal 918 owners, you have no idea how many times Porsche gave me the shhhhhhhh and shut up. Remember the time when I posted my factory visit for my 918? You have no idea how big a shit storm I created at PCNA. 

I had actually already crossed the line on what I can say about future Porsche road map. I don't care as I treated members here as fellow 'brothers'. But then again I also have some kind of leeway with the FB group on Porsche.

Just remember information are always a 2 way street. Not just me, but other members here that post informations, they sometimes have stuff that I don't get access to too, and they also tried to stay within their limits.

Whoopsy:

nberry:

Nick, the resentment is generated by nothing more than envy. I believe 918 owners should get priority on all Porsche products. Many bought the 918 when enthusiasm for the car was tepid and the reviews less than complimentary. My issue is if they are selling a 100 cars to 918 owners they should increase the production by that amount for the regular Porsche customers. 

To me the R is the rip off of this century. All Porsche needs to do to generate unbridled passion among the Porsche enthusiasts is designate the model as special and they will pay through the nose to get one. They have more money than sense.

Christian, you would be crazy to buy one. Unless you plan to keep it as a collector item don't even think about it.

--

 

Of little, to make much: That is the dream of a human life.

 

 

Well consider this, they were going to make only 600 initially, the rumoured number here was correct. 

Then they realized there are more than that number of 918 owners, so they increased it to 991, as in reality there are less than 918 918 owners, and the VIP program only applies to the USA market, which only sold 297 cars. So approximately 200-300 cars or so will go to the 'general public'. ROW market will perhaps allocate only one car to each 918 owner, even if they bought multiples, barring any special circumstances. 

 

In this case it's pretty fair so my rant was misplaced, I would take it back if I could. And to be clear my post wasn't about envy. I like the idea of the vip program, was going to get the 918 but didn't like the extra 200k over the rumored price and all the hybrid tech so passed on it. And no regrets either. No time to go around the world like Nick to check out cars and no time to drive 2 seaters as my free time is spent with kids and wife... But next Porsche super car, if retired and kids in college, will be considered, along with the Singer project and the Mille Miglia adventure 

Whoopsy - Appreciate what you can share. I'm just hoping one these days Porsche builds the 960 we have been waiting for.

2014 Porsche 991 C4S Black with Sports Design Package,  2013 Porsche Cayenne Dark Blue Metallic, New York

where's the issue.....be a high value client with any retail business and you will get preferantial treatment and access to limited products before the average buyer does.

Exactly, it is a normal business practice. The one who spends the most gets the most rewards. 

 Part of the negativity we are reading here and elsewhere comes from the fact that the R is a product that in way was long overdue and  when finally Porsche makes one it is heavily limited. This leaves a bitter taste in many Porsche customers. Here I refer to the ones that are buying the car for its intrinsic value and not for its (?) investment grade characteristics  . 

fritz:

apias:

Well, he would do long-term reliability testing, so, of course, he'd need to drive it constantly, in all seasons and conditions, long trips and short, ...

Would the IRS be so naive and gullible as to accept that? 

This is why every test/development car has a "Fahrtenbuch" (logbook) in the glove box, where people have to sign in with their name, time/date and route. It was interesting in the past to see that Wiedeking or Müller have driven the same car, was kind of fun. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

apias:

I don't know, but I guess the important question is, would the German tax authorities?

Probably not if his job title weren't something like Porsche Test Special Driver (PTSD).

That means he will only drive test cars not properly registered cars.

nberry:

Nick, the resentment is generated by nothing more than envy. I believe 918 owners should get priority on all Porsche products. Many bought the 918 when enthusiasm for the car was tepid and the reviews less than complimentary. My issue is if they are selling a 100 cars to 918 owners they should increase the production by that amount for the regular Porsche customers. 

To me the R is the rip off of this century. All Porsche needs to do to generate unbridled passion among the Porsche enthusiasts is designate the model as special and they will pay through the nose to get one. They have more money than sense.

Seriously? The 911 R is a dream come true for me (well, with PDK and backseats even more...). I cannot see any rip off, sorry. The 997 Sport Classic was a rip off, the Club models are, kind of, a rip off (though not really, they do not cost a fortune) but the 911 R? A gift to 911 enthusiasts.

Christian, you would be crazy to buy one. Unless you plan to keep it as a collector item don't even think about it.

You are right about this one if I had to take out money from investments/etc.. This is why I am hesitating and thinking about a lease. I could also get the 991.2 GT3 but this is not the same thing for me, unless Porsche really decides to offer that rumored wing delete option. Or I could wait for that ominous "other" model with 911 R tech, maybe even in convertible flavor.

Or I could just, as my wife suggested, lean back, enjoy my GTS, wait until money isn't an issue anymore and decide at that time what to do. However, it is not very likely that we are going to see many n/a models anymore in two or three years, so...  If Porsche brings back sound to the 911 Turbo S, I could be tempted as well but chances are probably not very good (yes, they get rid of the VTG chargers but I'm not sure if the new tech is really a good thing for better sound).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

wantone:

apias:

I don't know, but I guess the important question is, would the German tax authorities?

Probably not if his job title weren't something like Porsche Test Special Driver (PTSD).

That means he will only drive test cars not properly registered cars.

Every Porsche employee can actually drive company cars, they just need to "justify" the drive.

Cars with KBA registration (most test/development cars) are, as far as I understood, considered part of the job, the tax authorities in Germany have no issues with them. Things look different with cars "assigned" to specific employees as company and private cars, this is where they usually take a closer look (logbook is still mandatory I think, not sure if the 1% rule is permitted in their case). Example: I do not have to present a logbook (yet, it can change at tax office demand) but the tax office considers 1% of the new car's value (MSRP, not what I paid) as a monthly "gain" for my company. I can live with that. My wife has a logbook though because more than 50% of her driving is business related, so she doesn't have to use the 1% thingie. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

nberry:

Nick, the resentment is generated by nothing more than envy. I believe 918 owners should get priority on all Porsche products. Many bought the 918 when enthusiasm for the car was tepid and the reviews less than complimentary. My issue is if they are selling a 100 cars to 918 owners they should increase the production by that amount for the regular Porsche customers. 

To me the R is the rip off of this century. All Porsche needs to do to generate unbridled passion among the Porsche enthusiasts is designate the model as special and they will pay through the nose to get one. They have more money than sense.

Seriously? The 911 R is a dream come true for me (well, with PDK and backseats even more...). I cannot see any rip off, sorry. The 997 Sport Classic was a rip off, the Club models are, kind of, a rip off (though not really, they do not cost a fortune) but the 911 R? A gift to 911 enthusiasts.

Christian, you would be crazy to buy one. Unless you plan to keep it as a collector item don't even think about it.

You are right about this one if I had to take out money from investments/etc.. This is why I am hesitating and thinking about a lease. I could also get the 991.2 GT3 but this is not the same thing for me, unless Porsche really decides to offer that rumored wing delete option. Or I could wait for that ominous "other" model with 911 R tech, maybe even in convertible flavor.

Or I could just, as my wife suggested, lean back, enjoy my GTS, wait until money isn't an issue anymore and decide at that time what to do. However, it is not very likely that we are going to see many n/a models anymore in two or three years, so...  If Porsche brings back sound to the 911 Turbo S, I could be tempted as well but chances are probably not very good (yes, they get rid of the VTG chargers but I'm not sure if the new tech is really a good thing for better sound).

In theory you could see the R as another asset class and diversify your portfolio away from equities.

In theory, yes but I am not willing to risk it, especially since I would drive the car and not keep it stored somewhere.

From a financial point of view, this car makes actually sense but only if I had the money to buy it and only if I would sell it after the 6 months "grace" period. I do not intend to do that, so financially, this car would not be an asset for me.

Maybe I should listen to my wife this time: Enjoy my GTS, wait for another interesting toy to come along the way when I actually have the money "available". I think she is right but the 911 R tickles all my senses. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

If I was you I would sell the Shelby and the SRT to make room for the R.

RC:

In theory, yes but I am not willing to risk it, especially since I would drive the car and not keep it stored somewhere.

From a financial point of view, this car makes actually sense but only if I had the money to buy it and only if I would sell it after the 6 months "grace" period. I do not intend to do that, so financially, this car would not be an asset for me.

Maybe I should listen to my wife this time: Enjoy my GTS, wait for another interesting toy to come along the way when I actually have the money "available". I think she is right but the 911 R tickles all my senses. 

Sometimes you have to go with your heart RC.... Whilst getting an update on my RS from my UK dealer yesterday, he said OPCs are getting one 911R per dealer - almost the same as 4.0 numbers here.