Crown

One of my friends got one, just told him to avoid it and get the "hole"....

1992 964 Carrera 2 - 2014 Mercedes A45 AMG - 2013 Mini Cooper S - Cayman GT4 (soon)

Mikla:

One of my friends got one, just told him to avoid it and get the "hole"....

I was thinking the same but my dealer always says that PCM and A/C are must have options on any Porsche and they will be more difficult to sell without. Not sure he was specifically referring to the 911 R but he may have a point.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Whoopsy:

he can basically order any car he wants, and he ordered a 991.2 Turbo as his daily.

He should have thought ahead and ordered a 918 before it sold out

I would definitely get both AC and (last-generation) PCM. The idea that the tiny weight saving has any significance is nonsense.

2015 911 GT3, 2011 987S, 1964 Type 1

when you add standard PCCB and PCM to RS, in the UK, the R is around £2k cheaper than the RS.

Whoopsy:

That car might happens depending on the sales mix of manual GT3s. If only a tiny percentage took the manual option then there is no point for Porsche to do it. They are and will be looking at the sales figures for the net GT3 very closely.

 

let's hope so  ...991.1 Turbo / TurboS sales have been poor from day 1 from  a historical percentage of 911s sold each year ....too much competition today in the now $180-200 K " discrete " looking fast sports /GT car segment which they owned for decades because there was literally NO alternative ...I believe there is a market for a $180-200K normal unlimited production 911 that depreciates like a Turbo and is exactly what the R is and offers ...a discrete ( no stripes if you please ) " gentleman's " road focused "GT#"  chassis/ drivetrain- based model very different from what its competition offers at the price because none of them can pull a homage style model since they are all new lines of less than a decade in existence such as AMG GT/GTS , various Audi R8s, Astons , coming McLaren 570 GT " hatchback " , etc

I would be that customer of such a current $180-200k 911 as would many others.

In that price range now, the only choice is the increasingly  heavier more luxury laden Turbo family and the track optimized boy racer look GT3/GT3RS ( I am a greying 60 yrs old and prefer being less showy so as not to be known as  " that guy " down the street in my " leafy "'neighborhood if ya know what I mean ) 

Porsche is leaving lots of money on the table , imo, esp as shown by the mfalling Turbo actual numbers/percentage sales...might as well capture that buyer ( like me ) ...we , the HUGE worlwide cohort of post war wealthy retired greying boomers 58-70 yrs old with lots of free play time are the prime target of such a  model as the R ....since we were teens too young to drive or own the most classic ones that hit the streets in the 60s and earliest 70s....Porsche might as well milk this $$$$ cow for the next decade before most get too rickety to push a clutch pedal  - as Singer is doing to universal acclamation but in a slow tedious even  more limited way - since the generations after we boomers are seem increasingly less automobile dweeby 

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2016  991 Carrera GTS  " PCA 60 "  Club Coupe       orig owner ; 1 of 60 

You are wrong. More than 25% of the sold 911 models so far have been Turbo/Turbo S models according to my information. Pretty good for the Turbo/Turbo S if you ask me. Also, the new 991.2 Turbo S convertible is basically sold out for 2016. Not selling? Not really. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

Mikla:

One of my friends got one, just told him to avoid it and get the "hole"....

I was thinking the same but my dealer always says that PCM and A/C are must have options on any Porsche and they will be more difficult to sell without. Not sure he was specifically referring to the 911 R but he may have a point.

Definitely,  would not think twice about it. There is no way anyone can notice the weight difference so there is no downside really, but not getting could have many, it's not a stripped out track only car, it's a weekend toy

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

sfo:

Whoopsy:

he can basically order any car he wants, and he ordered a 991.2 Turbo as his daily.

He should have thought ahead and ordered a 918 before it sold out

I think you didn't get the point here: The car Walliser is driving is not his own, it is a company car and he doesn't really pay for it.  I find it quite strange though that Porsche would not "award" Walliser a 918 but I guess this isn't really a problem for him because he can still "borrow" one from time to time from Porsche's "testing" pool. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

You are wrong. More than 25% of the sold 911 models so far have been Turbo/Turbo S models according to my information. Pretty good for the Turbo/Turbo S if you ask me. Also, the new 991.2 Turbo S convertible is basically sold out for 2016. Not selling? Not really. 

--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

 

here in the heart of the wealthiest parts of Silicon Valleey new Turbos have been are a rare sighting from day 1 of the 991 generation compared  to prior generations when I saw more Turbos  than Carreras it  seems and my long time sales guys say they are loosing sales in that end price range of the daily driver sports car market to newcomers like AMG GT and believe  it or not, the Tesla Model S Ludicrous Speed  ( true version name ! ) which goes to 60 mph in 2.8 seconds ...must be because tech guys all have ADHD in order to keeo up in a business world that must reinvent itself every year or two 

2016  991 Carrera GTS  " PCA 60 "  Club Coupe       orig owner ; 1 of 60 

Surely the turbo S has lost a lot of sales to the Tesla as you said. Around here we see quite a few turbo S, mostly cabs, often driven by women, usually a very dull color and they make absolutely zero noise...

You'd be crazy not to get the AC. By the time an AC-delete car carries any worthwhile premium, you'll probably be dead.

If Turbos were selling well, wouldn't their resale reflect that demand?

Maybe these days they just want high powered, well mannered cars without wings?

Mikla:

I cannot understand why Porsche is offering the old PCM technology in the R. How can a customer be satisfied with the old stuff if a basic Carrera brings the state of the art Porsche navigation and Car Play?

Are the customer who already ordered one concerned or you just don't care?

The R is a 991.1

The proper solution is to order Radio delete (no PCM)

16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

noone1:

If Turbos were selling well, wouldn't their resale reflect that demand?

People buying used cars are not the same as the ones buying $200k overpriced cars. That's why normal 911 drop like stones these days in resale.

Whoopsy:

I have written before, but the next GT3 with manual is the 'replacement' for the 911R, it is a better car one can drive without 'guilt', a regular production model. But then again regular customers sees the GT3 as another 'investment' car that they can drive for a few months without losing money and they won't put miles on it anyway. 

BUT...will the next GT3 have a "wing delete" option?

The absence of a rear wing on GT department 911 is VERY appealing to some (me included).

In short NO. 

And rear seats. Who cares if the car weights another 20kg for rear seats...

It looked like AP was talking about ANOTHER model, not simply a GT3 with a wing delete option.

SciFrog:

Surely the turbo S has lost a lot of sales to the Tesla as you said. Around here we see quite a few turbo S, mostly cabs, often driven by women, usually a very dull color and they make absolutely zero noise...

And are driven with the wings always deployed? I saw a few of those when last I was in Florida.

Depends... If it is a man maybe, but a woman no...

RC:

sfo:

Whoopsy:

he can basically order any car he wants, and he ordered a 991.2 Turbo as his daily.

He should have thought ahead and ordered a 918 before it sold out

I think you didn't get the point here: The car Walliser is driving is not his own, it is a company car and he doesn't really pay for it.  I find it quite strange though that Porsche would not "award" Walliser a 918 but I guess this isn't really a problem for him because he can still "borrow" one from time to time from Porsche's "testing" pool. 

You are overlooking the fact that private use of a company car attracts income tax, and the rate of tax charged per kilometre is directly proportional to the list price of the car. Ouch! 

fritz

Highly doubt that would catch on for an automaker. All they'd have to say is that he's testing new software or something and the only way to test it is to drive it regularly and give feedback.

Now if you own a bank and you have a 918, that would be another story.

That could apply to a car from the development pool, but not one which is assigned to a company employee for an extended period as his personal daily driver. 

fritz

SciFrog:

Depends... If it is a man maybe, but a woman no...

Well, maybe the ones I saw, it got stuck open from being in that position so long.

fritz:

Rotbart wrote:
"Now I've been reading a lot of the Porsche related threads on this forum for quite some time and there are two things that I can read out of a lot of posts here.
Number one: Porsche seems to do things right from a financial point of view by creating extra demand with a rumored to be strictly limited GT3 RS and now the actually limited production 911 R and it turns out this works perfectly, as people are always keen to own something special.

Number two though is that I get the imagination, that regular (non motorsports) Porsches are no longer good enough, so Porsche therefore seems to do something wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong - it seems like the car a lot of you want is the combination of a daily driver and a weekend fun car, as RC calls it and for that purpose the motorsports cars are too hardcore, yet the regular Carreras (and Turbos) aren't involving enough anymore. For me this is the very spot where I see a GTS model, if not a complyingly specced Carrera S. Sadly not having been able to drive a Porsche yet, I cannot imagine this is only because of the turbo engines and the different accoustics compared to a N/A engine.

So I'd like to hear your oppinions: what is it that AP and the motorsports department do better than their Stuttgart colleagues?"

fritz wrote:
You have to keep in mind that the opinions you read on sites like Rennteam are those of real car enthusiasts, who might not be entirely representative of typical mainstream buyers  -  even of sports cars like Porsches. The suggestion that "regular Porsches are no longer good enough" is not supported by the sales figures of those models, which are as good as or better than they have ever been.
 
The fact that cars generally are not as "involving" as they used to be has as much to do with traffic and road conditions as with the cars, and with the fact that these conditions are forcing drivers to expect cars to be "low maintenance" in terms of their involvement and inputs during daily commutes or routine journeys. 

Porsche recognised this and has produced sportier variants of its base models to try to satisfy the wants of more enthusiastic buyers while still selling large enough numbers of cars to remain viable as a manufacturer. (For the sake of this discussion we can ignore the fact that Porsche was absorbed into the VW Group for reasons which had nothing to do with Porsche's product range). The success of the GT models in the last 17 years has probably surprised Porsche as much as it has anyone else. 

The GT variants of the 911 and now the Cayman build up on the foundation of the base versions of those models. Without good, well developed base models the GT versions would also be unlikely to be as good or as successful as they are. The GT variants come to market some time after the base versions because of the fact that the base version has to be thoroughly developed and tested before work on the sportier variant can be sensibly started. It's not so much a question of the Motorsports department doing its work better than the series-model platform group, its just that the Motorsports department is allowed the freedom of developing more extreme variants on the basis of the bread-and-butter models which are better suited to the expectations of the more enthusiastic buyers who are prepared to pay more for them, which in turn can justify building smaller runs. 

FWIW, the development work on the base models is also done at the R&D Centre in Weissach, within the same perimeter fence as the Motorsports department. All the cars are then assembled at the main factory in Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen. 

Thank you and thanks to RC for your comments!

I knew the fact that all 911s and Boxters are built at the very same facilities in Stuttgart, but concerning the development I've read books that claimed different, so thank you for clarifying.

After reading both of your comments Porsche actually seems to do way better than a lot of the posts here suggest. I get the point that this is an enthusiats' board and this is the reason why I am here, because I see myself as a Porsche enthusiatst, despite not being an owner like most active people here, but a huge fan of the brand and the cars, as probably all here are.

So comes, I totally agree with you on the point that modern cars are not really involving. Given my age, I've not driven a large number of cars yet, but from what I can tell, a VW Polo I drove for some hours was unbelievable boring and had basically no feedback in the steering wheel, whereas my car, a Ford Fiesta, gives a nice feedback steering and chassis wise. This is probably what the more extreme motorsports cars are to you guys compared to other cars, just on a wholly different level.

fritz:

Rotbart wrote:
"Now I've been reading a lot of the Porsche related threads on this forum for quite some time and there are two things that I can read out of a lot of posts here.
Number one: Porsche seems to do things right from a financial point of view by creating extra demand with a rumored to be strictly limited GT3 RS and now the actually limited production 911 R and it turns out this works perfectly, as people are always keen to own something special.

Number two though is that I get the imagination, that regular (non motorsports) Porsches are no longer good enough, so Porsche therefore seems to do something wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong - it seems like the car a lot of you want is the combination of a daily driver and a weekend fun car, as RC calls it and for that purpose the motorsports cars are too hardcore, yet the regular Carreras (and Turbos) aren't involving enough anymore. For me this is the very spot where I see a GTS model, if not a complyingly specced Carrera S. Sadly not having been able to drive a Porsche yet, I cannot imagine this is only because of the turbo engines and the different accoustics compared to a N/A engine.

So I'd like to hear your oppinions: what is it that AP and the motorsports department do better than their Stuttgart colleagues?"

fritz wrote:
You have to keep in mind that the opinions you read on sites like Rennteam are those of real car enthusiasts, who might not be entirely representative of typical mainstream buyers  -  even of sports cars like Porsches. The suggestion that "regular Porsches are no longer good enough" is not supported by the sales figures of those models, which are as good as or better than they have ever been.
 
The fact that cars generally are not as "involving" as they used to be has as much to do with traffic and road conditions as with the cars, and with the fact that these conditions are forcing drivers to expect cars to be "low maintenance" in terms of their involvement and inputs during daily commutes or routine journeys. 

Porsche recognised this and has produced sportier variants of its base models to try to satisfy the wants of more enthusiastic buyers while still selling large enough numbers of cars to remain viable as a manufacturer. (For the sake of this discussion we can ignore the fact that Porsche was absorbed into the VW Group for reasons which had nothing to do with Porsche's product range). The success of the GT models in the last 17 years has probably surprised Porsche as much as it has anyone else. 

The GT variants of the 911 and now the Cayman build up on the foundation of the base versions of those models. Without good, well developed base models the GT versions would also be unlikely to be as good or as successful as they are. The GT variants come to market some time after the base versions because of the fact that the base version has to be thoroughly developed and tested before work on the sportier variant can be sensibly started. It's not so much a question of the Motorsports department doing its work better than the series-model platform group, its just that the Motorsports department is allowed the freedom of developing more extreme variants on the basis of the bread-and-butter models which are better suited to the expectations of the more enthusiastic buyers who are prepared to pay more for them, which in turn can justify building smaller runs. 

FWIW, the development work on the base models is also done at the R&D Centre in Weissach, within the same perimeter fence as the Motorsports department. All the cars are then assembled at the main factory in Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen. 

Excellent point Fritz.  To put a cap on it, consider a few of my colleagues at work who drive Porsches.  One has a Carrera PDK, very much doubt he has ever taken the car to redline.  Likes the looks, things it's a fast car (even though never exceeds 5k rpm), finds it comfortable for daily use.  Prestige.  Same for one of my female colleagues.  Two others drive Panameras...last thing on their mind is taking a curve fast.  

Heck, there are even big car nuts that would not drive GT-series cars for various reasons.  No back seats, manual only, wing on the back, too stiff suspension, etc.  So still need the standard line of cars.

fritz:

That could apply to a car from the development pool, but not one which is assigned to a company employee for an extended period as his personal daily driver. 

Are these the laws in Germany? In the UK driving a company car is a taxable benefit.

wantone:

fritz:

That could apply to a car from the development pool, but not one which is assigned to a company employee for an extended period as his personal daily driver. 

Are these the laws in Germany? In the UK driving a company car is a taxable benefit.

It's a taxable benefit in Germany as well if a company car is driven for private journeys, but if as suggested above by noone1 it could be shown that a trip is made for development or test purposes then it would count as business use. This naturally has to be credible. 
 

fritz

Well, he would do long-term reliability testing, so, of course, he'd need to drive it constantly, in all seasons and conditions, long trips and short, ...