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    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    I haven't looked into Porsche pricing for sometime especially the Cayenne + 991.2, but the current prices for the Turbo / Turbo S are hair-raising in some regions - close to 200k (starting price) I remember back in the old days you'd pay close to $95k but slapping another $100k for minor changes is farcical  angry

    Cayenne and the GT2 RS which some dealers are playing hardball, will soon push more customers to look into 720S and Mercedes models  enlightened

    The management is still horrendous and if they keep this up by upping their prices, well... angry


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    BiTurbo:

    I haven't looked into Porsche pricing for sometime especially the Cayenne + 991.2, but the current prices for the Turbo / Turbo S are hair-raising in some regions - close to 200k (starting price) I remember back in the old days you'd pay close to $95k but slapping another $100k for minor changes is farcical  angry

    Cayenne and the GT2 RS which some dealers are playing hardball, will soon push more customers to look into 720S and Mercedes models  enlightened

    The management is still horrendous and if they keep this up by upping their prices, well... angry

    As long as people pay these prices (and it seems they do...), well...

    Now you know why I switched. I love Porsche but ownership became too expensive for me. In the past I had always at least two Porsche, sometimes even three (Cayenne, 911, Boxster) but now? Can't afford them anymore. My 991.1 GTS will go next year (to wife or back to dealer), the Cayenne is going as well next year and right now, I do not know if I will get another Porsche. The R8 stays (for obvious reasons). Maybe when the 960 comes, I will reconsider but judging by the current price hikes, I doubt I will be able to afford it. Unless Porsche picks up the price where Audi left it but I highly doubt it. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

     Prices can be confusing. In the U.S., my 2015 Cayenne Turbo, very nicely optioned, had an MSRP of well over 130 K.   But with dealer discount, cosr was reduced to 122K, which made my three-year lease payments affordable. That comparison, my neighbor's Tesla X was over 160 K, and he tells me there was very little discount offered. 

     

    Also  recently priced out a nice Panamera Turbo, discounted at my dealer to 159K.  Go figure.


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    Not everyone is located in the US angry

    In the US they have real competition with over 150 dealers, while some of us/others are stuck with one schmuck who charges 3x more than anywhere else. If you can get front brake pad set for $270 for the Cayenne V6, elsewhere is $815. That costs more than CCB front brake pads for GT2 enlightened

     


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    for the german speaking rennteamers:

    http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/fahrberichte/porsche-cayenne-fahrbericht-2018-12406369.html

    The first drive with the new Cayenne, not too much news in the article. The size will be simular to the old one but about 10 cm lower. Also a new option which are wolfram coated steel disks apparently less wear and very shinny. Interesting comment was about the engines: People should stop winning about turbo engines, at least the once of Porsche they are good.

     

     


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    Autocar: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/exclusive-2018-porsche-cayenne-prototype-review


    --

    2016 Cayman GT4 - 1992 964 Carrera 2 - 2016 Macan S Diesel - 2013 Mini Cooper S


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    Not 10 cm lower, but 10 cm shorter wheelbase


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    Nob Enzo you are wrong:

    The Cayenne is based on a 100 mm shorter wheelbase MLB platform of Q7 and Bentayga making the car simular in  length as the gen2. According Auto Motor Sport the car is app 100mm lower. We will see on August 30 at the official presentation in Stuttgart.


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    Reports in the local press are suggesting that Porsche is seriously considering to drop all Diesel engines from its model line-up, including the new Cayenne but also possibly the Macan and Panamera.

    That could make a big dent in their SUV sales in Germany and other European core markets. The hybdrid models would be hard pushed to pick up the slack.


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    olli:

    Reports in the local press are suggesting that Porsche is seriously considering to drop all Diesel engines from its model line-up, including the new Cayenne but also possibly the Macan and Panamera.

    That could make a big dent in their SUV sales in Germany and other European core markets. The hybdrid models would be hard pushed to pick up the slack.

    Hm, I think they will only do this if they foresee that European tax advantages on diesel cars will disappear, ór when they can offer a good alternative which will also fall under advantageous tax rules hybid/ev.


    --


    Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    Those diesel tax advantages are already replaced by hybrid/ev advantages in Belgium. Diesel sales are on their way down.


    --

    997.2 4S / BMW X5 40e / Donkervoort GT 


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    82% of Cayenne sales in Germany are with Diesel engines, similar order of magnutude for the Macan. There is an anti-Diesel shitstorm going on here these days, so the move would be politically expedient but risky from a P&L perspective. Plus Audi as supplier of all those Diesel engines would not like it at all...could result in quite a shouting match at VW Group board level.

    Sales of hydrids continue to lag and the Mission E aka J1 is at least 2 years down the road.


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    olli:

    Reports in the local press are suggesting that Porsche is seriously considering to drop all Diesel engines from its model line-up, including the new Cayenne but also possibly the Macan and Panamera.

    That could make a big dent in their SUV sales in Germany and other European core markets. The hybdrid models would be hard pushed to pick up the slack.

    At first, yes but they plan to replace the Diesels with ELVs or at least hybrids. They planned this anyway, after the emissions scandal but now it seems they are going through with this stuff much faster.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    olli:

    82% of Cayenne sales in Germany are with Diesel engines, similar order of magnutude for the Macan. There is an anti-Diesel shitstorm going on here these days, so the move would be politically expedient but risky from a P&L perspective. Plus Audi as supplier of all those Diesel engines would not like it at all...could result in quite a shouting match at VW Group board level.

    Sales of hydrids continue to lag and the Mission E aka J1 is at least 2 years down the road.

    The sales of hybrids lag because they...suck. Let Porsche offer a Turbo S hybrid for 120k EUR and this car will sell like crazy, same goes for a Cayenne Turbo S. For close to 200k or more? Not really a big market there.

    Tesla sells their Tesla S and X models through performance. Nobody would buy them if they did 0-100 kph in 6 seconds, the Tesla S gained it's "reputation" by doing 0-100 kph under 3 seconds. I understand why Porsche and such are afraid to put an ELV on the road which might be faster in a drag race than their sports cars but in my opinion, this is a different buying group. I would never buy an ELV over a 911, even if the ELV would be faster straight line.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    Joost:
    olli:

    Reports in the local press are suggesting that Porsche is seriously considering to drop all Diesel engines from its model line-up, including the new Cayenne but also possibly the Macan and Panamera.

    That could make a big dent in their SUV sales in Germany and other European core markets. The   models would be hard pushed to pick up the slack.

    Hm, I think they will only do this if they foresee that European tax advantages on diesel cars will disappear, ór when they can offer a good alternative which will also fall under advantageous tax rules hybid/ev.

    Belgian government will stop the tax advantages of the so told fake hybrids. This will make the bmw x5e/merc hybrids/ porsche hybrids/...whatever non full electric car completely useless in terms of taxes. They do have a point...

    game over for these models!


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    RC:
    olli:

    82% of Cayenne sales in Germany are with Diesel engines, similar order of magnutude for the Macan. There is an anti-Diesel shitstorm going on here these days, so the move would be politically expedient but risky from a P&L perspective. Plus Audi as supplier of all those Diesel engines would not like it at all...could result in quite a shouting match at VW Group board level.

    Sales of hydrids continue to lag and the Mission E aka J1 is at least 2 years down the road.

    The sales of hybrids lag because they...suck. Let Porsche offer a Turbo S hybrid for 120k EUR and this car will sell like crazy, same goes for a Cayenne Turbo S. For close to 200k or more? Not really a big market there.

    Tesla sells their Tesla S and X models through performance. Nobody would buy them if they did 0-100 kph in 6 seconds, the Tesla S gained it's "reputation" by doing 0-100 kph under 3 seconds. I understand why Porsche and such are afraid to put an ELV on the road which might be faster in a drag race than their sports cars but in my opinion, this is a different buying group. I would never buy an ELV over a 911, even if the ELV would be faster straight line.

    Didn't someone on here just say how shitty the new Panamera Hybrid was? And didn't you confirm it was shitty?


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    noone1:
    RC:
    olli:

    82% of Cayenne sales in Germany are with Diesel engines, similar order of magnutude for the Macan. There is an anti-Diesel shitstorm going on here these days, so the move would be politically expedient but risky from a P&L perspective. Plus Audi as supplier of all those Diesel engines would not like it at all...could result in quite a shouting match at VW Group board level.

    Sales of hydrids continue to lag and the Mission E aka J1 is at least 2 years down the road.

    The sales of hybrids lag because they...suck. Let Porsche offer a Turbo S hybrid for 120k EUR and this car will sell like crazy, same goes for a Cayenne Turbo S. For close to 200k or more? Not really a big market there.

    Tesla sells their Tesla S and X models through performance. Nobody would buy them if they did 0-100 kph in 6 seconds, the Tesla S gained it's "reputation" by doing 0-100 kph under 3 seconds. I understand why Porsche and such are afraid to put an ELV on the road which might be faster in a drag race than their sports cars but in my opinion, this is a different buying group. I would never buy an ELV over a 911, even if the ELV would be faster straight line.

    Didn't someone on here just say how shitty the new Panamera Hybrid was? And didn't you confirm it was shitty?

    That person was talking about the eHybrid, not the Turbo S. The Turbo S is great but way too expensive in my book.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    RC:
    noone1:
    RC:
    olli:

    82% of Cayenne sales in Germany are with Diesel engines, similar order of magnutude for the Macan. There is an anti-Diesel shitstorm going on here these days, so the move would be politically expedient but risky from a P&L perspective. Plus Audi as supplier of all those Diesel engines would not like it at all...could result in quite a shouting match at VW Group board level.

    Sales of hydrids continue to lag and the Mission E aka J1 is at least 2 years down the road.

    The sales of hybrids lag because they...suck. Let Porsche offer a Turbo S hybrid for 120k EUR and this car will sell like crazy, same goes for a Cayenne Turbo S. For close to 200k or more? Not really a big market there.

    Tesla sells their Tesla S and X models through performance. Nobody would buy them if they did 0-100 kph in 6 seconds, the Tesla S gained it's "reputation" by doing 0-100 kph under 3 seconds. I understand why Porsche and such are afraid to put an ELV on the road which might be faster in a drag race than their sports cars but in my opinion, this is a different buying group. I would never buy an ELV over a 911, even if the ELV would be faster straight line.

    Didn't someone on here just say how shitty the new Panamera Hybrid was? And didn't you confirm it was shitty?

    That person was talking about the eHybrid, not the Turbo S. The Turbo S is great but way too expensive in my book.

    I think that person was me after my test drive in the 4 e-hybrid.

    Not sure why the Turbo S e-hybrid should be any better? It's the exact same implementation in both cars. Only difference is the V8 vs. V6. E-motor/battery is the same. Yes, there is PDCC and PCCB standard on the TS, but the issue I had with the 4 e-hybrid was mainly the integration between e-motor and petrol engine and PDK-gearbox. It was just a unpleasant experience and the 136hp e-engine is underpowered for such a big car. TS is even heavier than the 4 Smiley


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    Of course it makes a difference if you can switch between driving electric and full power (680 hp) with a decent sound.   Yes, the Panamera Turbo S is heavy but you can barely feel it, it actually feels like the Turbo but. You actually get both worlds, driving electric (and saving fuel, especially inside cities) and driving one of the most powerful sedans on the market. 

    The difference between the Panamera Turbo S and the Tesla is: Range and the fun driving that thing (Turbo S). 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    RC:

    Of course it makes a difference if you can switch between driving electric and full power (680 hp) with a decent sound.   Yes, the Panamera Turbo S is heavy but you can barely feel it, it actually feels like the Turbo but. You actually get both worlds, driving electric (and saving fuel, especially inside cities) and driving one of the most powerful sedans on the market. 

    The difference between the Panamera Turbo S and the Tesla is: Range and the fun driving that thing (Turbo S). 


    Different strokes for different folks. I don't agree with your assessment at all, but I have learnt that it's waste of time to argue about that Smiley

    I didn't mention Tesla, did I? Just read my review in the Panamera thread, not even a word about Tesla. It was 100% focusing on the hybrid drivetrain, which I didn't like at all. And I can bet I will have the exact same feelings driving the Turbo S or the new Cayenne e-Hybrid. It's just not a good integration and more of a scribble.
     


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    Drive the Turbo S, you will change your opinion. The fun is the Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde factor, something you don't have in the less powerful eHybrid.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    lukestern:
    RC:
    noone1:
    RC:
    olli:

    82% of Cayenne sales in Germany are with Diesel engines, similar order of magnutude for the Macan. There is an anti-Diesel shitstorm going on here these days, so the move would be politically expedient but risky from a P&L perspective. Plus Audi as supplier of all those Diesel engines would not like it at all...could result in quite a shouting match at VW Group board level.

    Sales of hydrids continue to lag and the Mission E aka J1 is at least 2 years down the road.

    The sales of hybrids lag because they...suck. Let Porsche offer a Turbo S hybrid for 120k EUR and this car will sell like crazy, same goes for a Cayenne Turbo S. For close to 200k or more? Not really a big market there.

    Tesla sells their Tesla S and X models through performance. Nobody would buy them if they did 0-100 kph in 6 seconds, the Tesla S gained it's "reputation" by doing 0-100 kph under 3 seconds. I understand why Porsche and such are afraid to put an ELV on the road which might be faster in a drag race than their sports cars but in my opinion, this is a different buying group. I would never buy an ELV over a 911, even if the ELV would be faster straight line.

    Didn't someone on here just say how shitty the new Panamera Hybrid was? And didn't you confirm it was shitty?

    That person was talking about the eHybrid, not the Turbo S. The Turbo S is great but way too expensive in my book.

    I think that person was me after my test drive in the 4 e-hybrid.

    Not sure why the Turbo S e-hybrid should be any better? It's the exact same implementation in both cars. Only difference is the V8 vs. V6. E-motor/battery is the same. Yes, there is PDCC and PCCB standard on the TS, but the issue I had with the 4 e-hybrid was mainly the integration between e-motor and petrol engine and PDK-gearbox. It was just a unpleasant experience and the 136hp e-engine is underpowered for such a big car. TS is even heavier than the 4 Smiley

    Completely different implementation, think 918. One is a small underpowered engine with a hybrid to help with mileage, sucks big time, and the other is a monster engine with a hybrid to increase performance further, sure you can use the hybrid in the S to better the mileage but that is not the objective otherwise it wouldn't have that big engine in the first place, but step down hard on the throttle and you will what that V8 with an extra instant 100 electrical horses are for...


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    I will have to admit that I like the Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde performance of my regular Cayenne turbo. I love to cruise about  in normal traffic, very comfortably and quietly, then to feel the rush of the turbo boost when I really get on it. I know this is not totally relevant to the hybrid discussion here, but the difference between normal smooth driving and turbo boost is quite appealing, even addictive. wink


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    I believe lukestern said the implementation was crappy, not that it didn't have good performance. I don't see why a 4S e-hybrid should feel any different other than just slower than a Turbo S e-hybrid, so why would a Panamera?


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    Carlos from Spain:
    lukestern:
    RC:
    noone1:
    RC:
    olli:

    82% of Cayenne sales in Germany are with Diesel engines, similar order of magnutude for the Macan. There is an anti-Diesel shitstorm going on here these days, so the move would be politically expedient but risky from a P&L perspective. Plus Audi as supplier of all those Diesel engines would not like it at all...could result in quite a shouting match at VW Group board level.

    Sales of hydrids continue to lag and the Mission E aka J1 is at least 2 years down the road.

    The sales of hybrids lag because they...suck. Let Porsche offer a Turbo S hybrid for 120k EUR and this car will sell like crazy, same goes for a Cayenne Turbo S. For close to 200k or more? Not really a big market there.

    Tesla sells their Tesla S and X models through performance. Nobody would buy them if they did 0-100 kph in 6 seconds, the Tesla S gained it's "reputation" by doing 0-100 kph under 3 seconds. I understand why Porsche and such are afraid to put an ELV on the road which might be faster in a drag race than their sports cars but in my opinion, this is a different buying group. I would never buy an ELV over a 911, even if the ELV would be faster straight line.

    Didn't someone on here just say how shitty the new Panamera Hybrid was? And didn't you confirm it was shitty?

    That person was talking about the eHybrid, not the Turbo S. The Turbo S is great but way too expensive in my book.

    I think that person was me after my test drive in the 4 e-hybrid.

    Not sure why the Turbo S e-hybrid should be any better? It's the exact same implementation in both cars. Only difference is the V8 vs. V6. E-motor/battery is the same. Yes, there is PDCC and PCCB standard on the TS, but the issue I had with the 4 e-hybrid was mainly the integration between e-motor and petrol engine and PDK-gearbox. It was just a unpleasant experience and the 136hp e-engine is underpowered for such a big car. TS is even heavier than the 4 Smiley

    Completely different implementation, think 918. One is a small underpowered engine with a hybrid to help with mileage, sucks big time, and the other is a monster engine with a hybrid to increase performance further, sure you can use the hybrid in the S to better the mileage but that is not the objective otherwise it wouldn't have that big engine in the first place, but step down hard on the throttle and you will what that V8 with an extra instant 100 electrical horses are for...


    I'm actually pretty sure the issues I had with the 4 e-Hybrid are the same with the TS e-Hybrid. So this require a bit more explanation then...

    There are no issues with the hybrid integration when you drive it in Sport Plus mode. In that mode the petrol engine is always engaged and you will get the full combined power output with the e-boost on top of the normal 550hp V8. That's great news.

    What is not so much great news is when you daily drive your Panamera and don't want to have it in Sport Plus holding on to gears very long. e.g. if you cruise at 80km/h on a country road or 130km/h on a motorway. In this scenario you probably have either Hybrid mode or E-mode engaged. If you in any of these modes decide to accelerate under any circumstances, this is where it starts to get really bad. If you run in e-mode, the car @ 80km/h is relying on the emotor. There is a resistance under the pedal where you feel when the the max e-motor power is reached, you also can visualize this in the gauge on the instrument cluster where a number of acid green arrows moves up to max e-power. When you reach over that threshold, the petrol engine kicks in. And it does so with a big clunk and you go from smooth e-drive to unrefined drive and not very premium experience. The feeling is just not very pleasing and it comes like a surprise when you move from a calm drive on electric to this jerky feeling with pdk-box undecided which gear to be in and petrol engine/e-motor try to work together. The petrol engine will always kick-in if you push the throttle for overtaking a lorry or just decide to put your right foot down. This makes sense, because the limit of 136hp comes quite fast when trying to accelerate 2,5 ton forward. It's much smoother to do the same thing with the normal Turbo which I also have driven (actually, I have tested all the Panamera engines, except for the Turbo S. The 4 e-hybrid is the last one I would pick in the range).

    The other issue is when running in full e-mode. Because Porsche decided to put the e-motor between the gearbox and the engine, the car has to switch gears even in e-mode. So when you drive around in this smooth e-mode you feel som clunky gear changes that to me felt worse than a normal PDK-gear change in a petrol version. It was a very strange feeling. And compared with a full electric car it didn't feel as smooth, direct and responsive. I was honestly surprised about this and was expecting much better in this new generation e-Hybrid just like a wrote in my review. Also the brake feeling was not up to normal Porsche standard. The way they have implemented regenerative braking is weird and the brakes felt much more swampy than on the normal Panamera brakes. A much better re-gen braking system is found in full electric vehicles where the re-gen kicks in when you left of the throttle and not when you brake hard.

    I had hoped Porsche did some marvelous engineering to crack it with this latest version of e-hybrid solution, but to me it just felt like an unfinished product.

    If I had the choice I would pick the 4S or Turbo before the e-hybrid. Hybrid just add weight and decrease boot capacity and it also consumes more petrol than the cars without hybrid due to higher weight. Only place it does make sense is if you drive 20km to work in EV mode, but for doing that commute, there are in my view better alternatives.

    Hope that clarified it a bit more. If I get the opportunity to test a Turbo S that would be a nice experience to see and compare. Not sure that there will be any demo cars available at my dealership though, but we'll see.


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    noone1:

    I believe lukestern said the implementation was crappy, not that it didn't have good performance. I don't see why a 4S e-hybrid should feel any different other than just slower than a Turbo S e-hybrid, so why would a Panamera?

    I really recommend trying the Turbo S once it is available. I was ready to order a Cayenne Turbo S (next gen) but the price tag put me off (I'm not willing to "pay" close to 200k for a SUV). If Mercedes wouldn't offer the GLC 63 S AMG now, maybe I would still be tempted.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    lukestern:
    Carlos from Spain:
    lukestern:
    RC:
    noone1:
    RC:
    olli:

    82% of Cayenne sales in Germany are with Diesel engines, similar order of magnutude for the Macan. There is an anti-Diesel shitstorm going on here these days, so the move would be politically expedient but risky from a P&L perspective. Plus Audi as supplier of all those Diesel engines would not like it at all...could result in quite a shouting match at VW Group board level.

    Sales of hydrids continue to lag and the Mission E aka J1 is at least 2 years down the road.

    The sales of hybrids lag because they...suck. Let Porsche offer a Turbo S hybrid for 120k EUR and this car will sell like crazy, same goes for a Cayenne Turbo S. For close to 200k or more? Not really a big market there.

    Tesla sells their Tesla S and X models through performance. Nobody would buy them if they did 0-100 kph in 6 seconds, the Tesla S gained it's "reputation" by doing 0-100 kph under 3 seconds. I understand why Porsche and such are afraid to put an ELV on the road which might be faster in a drag race than their sports cars but in my opinion, this is a different buying group. I would never buy an ELV over a 911, even if the ELV would be faster straight line.

    Didn't someone on here just say how shitty the new Panamera Hybrid was? And didn't you confirm it was shitty?

    That person was talking about the eHybrid, not the Turbo S. The Turbo S is great but way too expensive in my book.

    I think that person was me after my test drive in the 4 e-hybrid.

    Not sure why the Turbo S e-hybrid should be any better? It's the exact same implementation in both cars. Only difference is the V8 vs. V6. E-motor/battery is the same. Yes, there is PDCC and PCCB standard on the TS, but the issue I had with the 4 e-hybrid was mainly the integration between e-motor and petrol engine and PDK-gearbox. It was just a unpleasant experience and the 136hp e-engine is underpowered for such a big car. TS is even heavier than the 4 Smiley

    Completely different implementation, think 918. One is a small underpowered engine with a hybrid to help with mileage, sucks big time, and the other is a monster engine with a hybrid to increase performance further, sure you can use the hybrid in the S to better the mileage but that is not the objective otherwise it wouldn't have that big engine in the first place, but step down hard on the throttle and you will what that V8 with an extra instant 100 electrical horses are for...


    I'm actually pretty sure the issues I had with the 4 e-Hybrid are the same with the TS e-Hybrid. So this require a bit more explanation then...

    There are no issues with the hybrid integration when you drive it in Sport Plus mode. In that mode the petrol engine is always engaged and you will get the full combined power output with the e-boost on top of the normal 550hp V8. That's great news.

    What is not so much great news is when you daily drive your Panamera and don't want to have it in Sport Plus holding on to gears very long. e.g. if you cruise at 80km/h on a country road or 130km/h on a motorway. In this scenario you probably have either Hybrid mode or E-mode engaged. If you in any of these modes decide to accelerate under any circumstances, this is where it starts to get really bad. If you run in e-mode, the car @ 80km/h is relying on the emotor. There is a resistance under the pedal where you feel when the the max e-motor power is reached, you also can visualize this in the gauge on the instrument cluster where a number of acid green arrows moves up to max e-power. When you reach over that threshold, the petrol engine kicks in. And it does so with a big clunk and you go from smooth e-drive to unrefined drive and not very premium experience. The feeling is just not very pleasing and it comes like a surprise when you move from a calm drive on electric to this jerky feeling with pdk-box undecided which gear to be in and petrol engine/e-motor try to work together. The petrol engine will always kick-in if you push the throttle for overtaking a lorry or just decide to put your right foot down. This makes sense, because the limit of 136hp comes quite fast when trying to accelerate 2,5 ton forward. It's much smoother to do the same thing with the normal Turbo which I also have driven (actually, I have tested all the Panamera engines, except for the Turbo S. The 4 e-hybrid is the last one I would pick in the range).

    The other issue is when running in full e-mode. Because Porsche decided to put the e-motor between the gearbox and the engine, the car has to switch gears even in e-mode. So when you drive around in this smooth e-mode you feel som clunky gear changes that to me felt worse than a normal PDK-gear change in a petrol version. It was a very strange feeling. And compared with a full electric car it didn't feel as smooth, direct and responsive. I was honestly surprised about this and was expecting much better in this new generation e-Hybrid just like a wrote in my review. Also the brake feeling was not up to normal Porsche standard. The way they have implemented regenerative braking is weird and the brakes felt much more swampy than on the normal Panamera brakes. A much better re-gen braking system is found in full electric vehicles where the re-gen kicks in when you left of the throttle and not when you brake hard.

    I had hoped Porsche did some marvelous engineering to crack it with this latest version of e-hybrid solution, but to me it just felt like an unfinished product.

    If I had the choice I would pick the 4S or Turbo before the e-hybrid. Hybrid just add weight and decrease boot capacity and it also consumes more petrol than the cars without hybrid due to higher weight. Only place it does make sense is if you drive 20km to work in EV mode, but for doing that commute, there are in my view better alternatives.

    Hope that clarified it a bit more. If I get the opportunity to test a Turbo S that would be a nice experience to see and compare. Not sure that there will be any demo cars available at my dealership though, but we'll see.

    "Only place it does make sense is if you drive 20km to work in EV mode, but for doing that commute, there are in my view better alternatives."

    You hit the nail here! That is what hybrids are all about. Yes, I concur that implementation in latest Panamera is not what we all expected. But, all hybrids are more or less the same.

    You can not compare full EVL to hybrid. Even e-Golf that my wife drives is superior in similar way that you describe above to hybrid Golf GTE. 


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    lukestern:
    Carlos from Spain:
    lukestern:
    RC:
    noone1:
    RC:
    olli:

    82% of Cayenne sales in Germany are with Diesel engines, similar order of magnutude for the Macan. There is an anti-Diesel shitstorm going on here these days, so the move would be politically expedient but risky from a P&L perspective. Plus Audi as supplier of all those Diesel engines would not like it at all...could result in quite a shouting match at VW Group board level.

    Sales of hydrids continue to lag and the Mission E aka J1 is at least 2 years down the road.

    The sales of hybrids lag because they...suck. Let Porsche offer a Turbo S hybrid for 120k EUR and this car will sell like crazy, same goes for a Cayenne Turbo S. For close to 200k or more? Not really a big market there.

    Tesla sells their Tesla S and X models through performance. Nobody would buy them if they did 0-100 kph in 6 seconds, the Tesla S gained it's "reputation" by doing 0-100 kph under 3 seconds. I understand why Porsche and such are afraid to put an ELV on the road which might be faster in a drag race than their sports cars but in my opinion, this is a different buying group. I would never buy an ELV over a 911, even if the ELV would be faster straight line.

    Didn't someone on here just say how shitty the new Panamera Hybrid was? And didn't you confirm it was shitty?

    That person was talking about the eHybrid, not the Turbo S. The Turbo S is great but way too expensive in my book.

    I think that person was me after my test drive in the 4 e-hybrid.

    Not sure why the Turbo S e-hybrid should be any better? It's the exact same implementation in both cars. Only difference is the V8 vs. V6. E-motor/battery is the same. Yes, there is PDCC and PCCB standard on the TS, but the issue I had with the 4 e-hybrid was mainly the integration between e-motor and petrol engine and PDK-gearbox. It was just a unpleasant experience and the 136hp e-engine is underpowered for such a big car. TS is even heavier than the 4 Smiley

    Completely different implementation, think 918. One is a small underpowered engine with a hybrid to help with mileage, sucks big time, and the other is a monster engine with a hybrid to increase performance further, sure you can use the hybrid in the S to better the mileage but that is not the objective otherwise it wouldn't have that big engine in the first place, but step down hard on the throttle and you will what that V8 with an extra instant 100 electrical horses are for...


    I'm actually pretty sure the issues I had with the 4 e-Hybrid are the same with the TS e-Hybrid. So this require a bit more explanation then...

    There are no issues with the hybrid integration when you drive it in Sport Plus mode. In that mode the petrol engine is always engaged and you will get the full combined power output with the e-boost on top of the normal 550hp V8. That's great news.

    What is not so much great news is when you daily drive your Panamera and don't want to have it in Sport Plus holding on to gears very long. e.g. if you cruise at 80km/h on a country road or 130km/h on a motorway. In this scenario you probably have either Hybrid mode or E-mode engaged. If you in any of these modes decide to accelerate under any circumstances, this is where it starts to get really bad. If you run in e-mode, the car @ 80km/h is relying on the emotor. There is a resistance under the pedal where you feel when the the max e-motor power is reached, you also can visualize this in the gauge on the instrument cluster where a number of acid green arrows moves up to max e-power. When you reach over that threshold, the petrol engine kicks in. And it does so with a big clunk and you go from smooth e-drive to unrefined drive and not very premium experience. The feeling is just not very pleasing and it comes like a surprise when you move from a calm drive on electric to this jerky feeling with pdk-box undecided which gear to be in and petrol engine/e-motor try to work together. The petrol engine will always kick-in if you push the throttle for overtaking a lorry or just decide to put your right foot down. This makes sense, because the limit of 136hp comes quite fast when trying to accelerate 2,5 ton forward. It's much smoother to do the same thing with the normal Turbo which I also have driven (actually, I have tested all the Panamera engines, except for the Turbo S. The 4 e-hybrid is the last one I would pick in the range).

    The other issue is when running in full e-mode. Because Porsche decided to put the e-motor between the gearbox and the engine, the car has to switch gears even in e-mode. So when you drive around in this smooth e-mode you feel som clunky gear changes that to me felt worse than a normal PDK-gear change in a petrol version. It was a very strange feeling. And compared with a full electric car it didn't feel as smooth, direct and responsive. I was honestly surprised about this and was expecting much better in this new generation e-Hybrid just like a wrote in my review. Also the brake feeling was not up to normal Porsche standard. The way they have implemented regenerative braking is weird and the brakes felt much more swampy than on the normal Panamera brakes. A much better re-gen braking system is found in full electric vehicles where the re-gen kicks in when you left of the throttle and not when you brake hard.

    I had hoped Porsche did some marvelous engineering to crack it with this latest version of e-hybrid solution, but to me it just felt like an unfinished product.

    If I had the choice I would pick the 4S or Turbo before the e-hybrid. Hybrid just add weight and decrease boot capacity and it also consumes more petrol than the cars without hybrid due to higher weight. Only place it does make sense is if you drive 20km to work in EV mode, but for doing that commute, there are in my view better alternatives.

    Hope that clarified it a bit more. If I get the opportunity to test a Turbo S that would be a nice experience to see and compare. Not sure that there will be any demo cars available at my dealership though, but we'll see.

     

    While I haven't driven a hybrid Panamera yet, I have rode in the 4 e-hybrid many times as Porsche was driving us around at Goodwood in such a car. The e-motor is perfectly fine where it is. It gains the torque multiplier from the gearbox through shifting and it's basically the same as in the 918. A Tesla is straining the e-motor at the top end without a gearbox because of the ultra high revolutions, that's why that car doesn't perform well as speed. And the shifts? Perfectly fine for a luxury car, there is no jerkiness. Not sure how you would call those nice shifts jerky, I was a passenger and I can't even feel the shifts.

    Hybrid mode on Porsche's hybrid cars are pointless, I never used it on the 918. With such a powerful exhaust sound it gets annoying real quick for all the constant starting of the engine.

    Sports PLUS mode is for spirited driving, of course it will hold gear longer. That's why if someone wants a smooth ride they use either e-mode or Sports mode.

    The brakes, pretty sure they are implemented exactly the same way as in a 918, so it is also perfectly fine as how Porsche wanted them. When one lifts the throttle, there is a slight regen going on, but will wait for driver's input before going full regen and then engage the brake disks, just like any other normal car. This is unlike a electric car that needs every little bit of electricity and jerking the driver's head forward with full regen the moment one lifts off the throttle, that's silly. Up to I believe 0.3g it's all regen braking, in the 918 it's 0.5g. 

    The Turbo S e-hybrid will act exactly the same way, this is the proper way to do a hybrid where the driving experience mirrors a a normal car, not a golf cart. And the electric system is a supplement to the gasoline engine, not the other way around.

    As for the suddenly transition from e-power to adding gas power, IT'S A PORSCHE!!! not a limp mode Lexus. Of course it needed to be exciting, engaging the gas engine is the most exciting part dude.

    You are judging the car all wrong, you cannot use a Tesla EV's perspective to see the car, that will fail.

    Look at the Panamera as a sport sedan that's also responsible to the environment. It has e-mode to drive around inner cities where there are congestion charges, can get on HOV lanes because of the hybrid system. and It will also save fuel during stop and go traffic. The e-mode is a supplementary system, not the primary system. In that regard, nothing touches it, not the BMW 7s, not the Mercedes Ss, not the Audi A8s. None of them can do HOV as a single rider, not avoid congestion charges, and their stop and go system is a fail as when the car is stopped the air-con stop running. On the Panamera everything is fine in electric mode.

    All bets are off on the Mission E however, no one has any clue as to how Porsche have planned for that car.

     


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    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    Many fair points there Whoopsy kiss

    The Panamera is a great car, there is no doubt about that. I was just a bit surprised that the hybrid integration was not smoother. But like you say, I might have a bit of a skewed perspective when comparing it with ELV.

    Will be interesting to get your view on the Panamera e-Hybrid brakes after your test drive. To me they were not even close to the ones in the Panamera Turbo (with normal steel). Maybe the PCCB in the Turbo S are better and don't have the same issue that I experienced with the 4 e-Hybrid steel brakes. Let's hope so.

    At the end of the day it's a very subjective thing what you like and don't like. I have just developed a big appreciation for quick golf carts and happen to prefer them over a car with combustion engine and transmission for several reasons.


    Re: UPDATES: 2018 Porsche Cayenne

    It's just about having the proper expectation.

    Porsche is a performance car company, hybrid system to them is a supplementary system to the gasoline engine, unlike every other company that uses electricity as a primary and gasoline engine as the supplementary.

    You thought the Panamera is a giant Prius, where the gasoline engine is a 'power adder', that's why you thought the changeover is odd and unrefined.

    But if you see it as a gasoline car, and the hybrid system is the, say NOS, then you would appreciate the seamless addition of added performance from the helper hybrid system. 

    The e-mode in the Panamera has enough range to be a semi-primary forms of propulsion, and the 16-20km in my 918 is perfectly fine enough for a single round trip to the bank or a one way trip to somewhere a bit farther, already perfectly acceptable to me. Granted, the 918 has almost 300HP in electric mode, much more than the 136HP or so in the Panamera. 

     

     

     


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