Crown

saw a red one yesterday evening in Bologna, it looks amazing in the night, so large and the sound was actually loud and nice, i did like it.

Don't understand why people don't like this car?!

993 c2

If you drive one, you'd understand. I didn't enjoy my experience behind the wheel at all.

Mike S:

If you drive one, you'd understand. I didn't enjoy my experience behind the wheel at all.

This seems to be Alfa Romeo's fate: They make an interesting product but the driving experience seems to be subpar. So many 4C for sale in Germany and not really many over MSRP anymore. The Spider seems to be in higher demand but the hype seems to be over. Quite surprising for an actually interesting car (price, design, even performance). So the driving experience may be the culprit, shouldn't be too difficult for Alfa Romeo to find a solution or is it?  Assuming they are even aware of the "problem".

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Reminds me of the 8C which was a beautiful car but uncompleted in terms of driving dynamics (great sound though).

m4ever:

Reminds me of the 8C which was a beautiful car but uncompleted in terms of driving dynamics (great sound though).

Also great investment apparently. Could get a used one many years ago for under 90k EUR. Now the prices are insane.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

8C was much much more limited production

I doubt 4C will be anywhere near as sought after

in the UK at least, all dealers seem to have a 4C Spider in stock (at the same time that cars are first available)

I was originally really interested in a 4C, but the dealers put me off completely.  I've been refused permission to even sit in one every time i've seen one at a show (Ferrari / McLaren / AM were a lot more accommodating) and when I asked about the possibility of a test drive or what the delivery lead times were like they just kind of laughed and said they were all sold out   Bought a GT3 instead.  I see loads for sale on Autoscout now, including the same dealer cars I looked at a couple of years back.

2015 911 GT3, 2011 987S, 1964 Type 1

DaveGordon:

I was originally really interested in a 4C, but the dealers put me off completely.  I've been refused permission to even sit in one every time i've seen one at a show (Ferrari / McLaren / AM were a lot more accommodating) and when I asked about the possibility of a test drive or what the delivery lead times were like they just kind of laughed and said they were all sold out  

I had a similar experience until ISUK recommended a dealer, who has been really helpful.

It's a great car but like any lightweight performance car it needs to be properly set up and unfortunately most Alfa dealers are simply not up to that task. It also seems odd that so many cars seem to have been allowed out of the factory with incorrect geometry set ups as the car is supposed to have been given it's pre delivery inspection at the end of the production line. When they arrived at dealerships there was nothing to do on them except to remove the protective transit covers and carry out any cleaning that was necessary.

It sounds like you have driven a poorly set up car Mike or like your comfort too much . Mine was quite a handful prior to the revisions made to it during the Pit Stop programme and would hunt out every camber on the road and tramline at the merest whiff of an uneven surface which meant you had to keep your full concentration on the steering lest you find yourself launched into a hedge. This actually made it quite good fun in a bizarre sort of way as it commanded a bit of respect and was very much not simply a plug and play type of drive. It is now very well behaved having had more road friendly front dampers fitted by Alfa and is a lot of fun. Clarkson loved it in the Top Gear summer road trip dvd last year.

Vicki Butler Henderson gets what the car is all about and seems to enjoy it -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2hose7-QTM

ISUK:

It's a great car but like any lightweight performance car it needs to be properly set up and unfortunately most Alfa dealers are simply not up to that task. It also seems odd that so many cars seem to have been allowed out of the factory with incorrect geometry set ups as the car is supposed to have been given it's pre delivery inspection at the end of the production line. When they arrived at dealerships there was nothing to do on them except to remove the protective transit covers and carry out any cleaning that was necessary.

Maybe AR just fell victim to the fact that suspension bushes and fasteners, etc., tend to settle after a few miles of spirited driving, so that the end of the assembly line (or even the PDI) is just too soon to try to achieve a "final" suspension set-up? 

This phenomenon has also been seen with low-mileage Porsche 911GTx models. This will be partly due to stiffer sporty suspensions being more sensitive to being out-of-spec and calling for smaller tolerances, and partly due to drivers of such cars generally having much higher expectations of their handling.  

fritz

ISUK. does your car have the leather dash? If so, are the air vents (the cylindrical bits, not the rotating flaps) covered in leather?

No, only the new spiders have the option of the leather dash in the UK. The coupes all came with just the bare plastic. I don't know if you can now get the leather dash option on the coupe as well but as they share the same dash it would seem stupid if Alfa do not offer this now.

This is a UK spider at Research Garage in Nuneaton and it has the leather on the dash vent outer covers. Another thing to note on the spec is that the standard headlights on the spider are the traditional looking covered version that the US cars get. If you option the bi-xenons it looks like you get the bug eye lights that the coupes have. Those look fine if you go for the carbon surround option but the standard plastic surround version looks terrible IMHO.

Here is a UK spider with the plastic dash and standard headlights.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201511309092550?make=alfa_romeo&onesearchad=used%2Cnearlynew%2Cnew&radius=1500&search-target=usedcars&postcode=ng138uj&model=4c&sort=pricedesc&page=1&logcode=p

thanks for that pic 

I was going to spec CF vents but no need as it's covered in leather as I would go for leather dashboard

UK coupes can be specced with leather dash

UK coupes have the carbon fibre Bi LED headlights (per launch cars) as standard; on the Spider, they are a £2350 option.

UK coupes can have the Spider's standard Bi Xenon lights for £360. I can't tell whether the non light darker bits of the Bi Xenon lights are in carbon fibre, like they are in the press pics

just found this pic of a UK Spider 

Well i think i will get my self a testdrive soon, im want to make my self an idea since i like the spider very much.

it all reminds me of the early 996/997 gt3 , they where almost dangerous with the standard set up from factory, but everybody knew that you had to go to a specialist in order to fix the problem.

stupid from AR not tomfix the problem from the factory???? But not even porsche did!!!

993 c2

xander71:

Well i think i will get my self a testdrive soon, im want to make my self an idea since i like the spider very much.

it all reminds me of the early 996/997 gt3 , they where almost dangerous with the standard set up from factory, but everybody knew that you had to go to a specialist in order to fix the problem.

stupid from AR not tomfix the problem from the factory???? But not even porsche did!!!

As I implied in an earlier post above, the problem with the "standard set-up from the factory" was not that the recommended settings were wrong, it was more a question of the recommended settings not being maintained for very long when the cars were driven. As I mentioned, suspension systems tend to settle as a car is driven, resulting in the settings changing to a degree which is not acceptable in cars of this nature. This comes on top of the possibility that maybe the standard assembly line station cycle times are just too short to allow the more precise chassis set-up that cars of this type really need. 
The answer would appear to be for this to be brought to the owners' attention when the cars are handed over, and for them to be given the option of bringing the cars back to the dealers' workshops for a suspension setting check-up after a certain break-in mileage.  

fritz

surely a fun little car and good tech with the carbon tub. but imo just too expensive for what it offers.

I think you are trying to pigeonhole the car in the same way most motoring journalists did at it's launch. It goes something along the lines of "what are it's rivals in terms of price, engine layout, number of seats?" etc. The answers invariably bring up cars like the Cayman at one end of the scale and the Lotus Exige/Elise at the other which couldn't be further from the ethos of what Alfa have achieved with the 4C.

The car, if anything, is under priced for what it offers but to understand this you really........ REALLY ....... need to spend several days with one. A short test drive will leave you thinking "what the hell was that all about" especially if the geometry isn't set up properly. If you've just stepped out of any other modern car you will have been cosseted by low NVH levels, a ride quality that aims to insulate you from what is going on under the wheels, steering that has become successively number at low speeds to ensure that parking or turning left or right down a city street is not too much of a chore, an engine that is becoming increasingly engineered to waft you along on a wave of torque from low revs... the list goes on.

Almost without exception every road test of the 4C I've encountered has started of with the "what the hell" bit followed by criticism of those next qualities as the writer struggles to get to grips with what is essentially a back to basics approach to the fun of driving but with a modern twist in terms of construction materials and technology - carbon tub, aluminium subframes, composite body, dual clutch gearbox, aluminium engine block, tft instrument cluster and so on. If the test lasts for a week or so the writer invariably has a eureka moment when they get the opportunity to drive the car on a familiar or challenging road at which point they changed their opinion and suddenly get what Alfa Romeo have given us with this car in an age when performance limits for fairly mundane cars have risen so high that for supercars to work effectively at their V max of 200mph plus they are now almost ridiculously docile and undemanding at saner real world everyday speeds. The Alfa kicks that approach into the long grass and gives you thrills and excitement that would be alien to drivers of much more expensive machinery on the open road.

Richard Porter from Evo magazine sums it up quite well in this article. I don't necessarily recognise some of the criticisms he levels - the build quality on my car is very good for example - but overall he hits the mark.

https://docs.zoho.com/file/001of16697f0acd084be1b77169d9ab700fc3

ISUK:

.... and the Lotus Exige/Elise at the other which couldn't be further from the ethos of what Alfa have achieved with the 4C.

 

I don't understand this comment.  Seems that this is exactly what Alfa was trying to achieve, albeit updated with some modern bits and build quality.  For sure they were not trying to make a Cayman duplicate.  All the benefits you describe, if anything the Lotus offers a more pure driving experience.

Alfa were attempting to make a junior Ferrari with the 4C, not an Italian Lotus Elise. An affordable super car is how they defined it on one presentation I've seen and I think they have hit that target. For me it represents a modern day nod to the Dino 246 in that it has few luxuries, offers mid engined handling and has great performance from a modest engine due to low kerb weight.

There are a few ex Lotus owners on the Alfa 4C forum and they regard the 4C as offering a different experience from what they had previously. The Lotus cars are even more stripped out and basic than the Alfa. They are difficult to get in and out of and have no real concessions to comfort. You could live with the Alfa day to day as it is a better designed/built car with none of the kit car sensation that the Elise has. On a practical daily use scale it would be in the middle of the spectrum with the Lotus at the extreme end and the Cayman at the most comfortable end. It will happily trundle around town in traffic with the TCT gearbox in auto with Normal driving mode selected. That calms the exhaust down and smooths out the throttle travel so it is easy to control. The ride quality is very good even on poorly surfaced roads. I had a passenger ride in a Corsa VXR yesterday and the 4C feels like a luxury limousine in terms of ride quality to the that car. The Audi S3 I briefly owned was also far harsher over poor surfaces which I found very surprising.

ISUK:

I had a passenger ride in a Corsa VXR yesterday and the 4C feels like a luxury limousine in terms of ride quality to the that car. The Audi S3 I briefly owned was also far harsher over poor surfaces which I found very surprising.

I was very impressed by the quality of the damping on the 4C.

have another test drive for Sat 12 Dec, hopefully in a Spider

ISUK:

It's a great car but like any lightweight performance car it needs to be properly set up and unfortunately most Alfa dealers are simply not up to that task. It also seems odd that so many cars seem to have been allowed out of the factory with incorrect geometry set ups as the car is supposed to have been given it's pre delivery inspection at the end of the production line. When they arrived at dealerships there was nothing to do on them except to remove the protective transit covers and carry out any cleaning that was necessary.

It sounds like you have driven a poorly set up car Mike or like your comfort too much . Mine was quite a handful prior to the revisions made to it during the Pit Stop programme and would hunt out every camber on the road and tramline at the merest whiff of an uneven surface which meant you had to keep your full concentration on the steering lest you find yourself launched into a hedge. This actually made it quite good fun in a bizarre sort of way as it commanded a bit of respect and was very much not simply a plug and play type of drive. It is now very well behaved having had more road friendly front dampers fitted by Alfa and is a lot of fun. Clarkson loved it in the Top Gear summer road trip dvd last year.

Vicki Butler Henderson gets what the car is all about and seems to enjoy it -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2hose7-QTM

 

All I've been driving of late is stripped out race cars for the road. Comfort is definitely not a priority 

My biggest gripe with the car was the brake pedal feel and the gearbox. The brakes were not very gradual in their application. It had a very SLR like feel to them. The gearbox felt really lazy for the lack of a better term. Just feels like a really quick automatic on shifts and a jerky "SMG" on pull away.

The gearbox software has been updated Mike and the shift changes are much improved in terms of speed. Mine has never felt jerky from pull away though either before or after the software change.  I've got no issues with the brakes either as I bedded them in during the run in period but the pedal weight takes a little getting used to initially. Do you know what mileage was on the car you drove? If it was low the car will not run in Dynamic mode.

That probably explains it. The car had quite low mileage. I think around 1200km odd on the odometer.

intouch1:

surely a fun little car and good tech with the carbon tub. but imo just too expensive for what it offers.

Seriously? Too expensive?  For 60k, you get a well equipped Audi station wagon Diesel over here in Germany and not even the top engined version.  Or a base Boxster with some must-have options.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Who pays list price?

wantone:

Who pays list price?

Who was talking about list price? 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Test drove it yesterday morning thanks to a friend who has got one in  september with all updated and with 3000 km.

Red and black interior, I skip all the things aboute style etc...

just give you my drive impressions: the car is fun a lot of fun , it's fast and of course I want to have more hp but that is the same with almost all cars. The feeling is that it is a little bit  underpowered due to the fact that with this chassis it would clarely handle much more hp.  I drove it on the twisty streets to florence and down to bologna again, it's the street where every saturday and sunday all bikers have a lot of fun. So the perfect territory for the 4c .I did skip the autostrada test since it is not of my interest try it on a straight line at 250 kmh. The car is nervous just like i did expect and all the writing about the bad steering and understeer, is just not true in this car that I drove, it is sharp in the corners and very immediate, so just don't think about a cayman which is a different car, almost a mercedes compared to the 4c in terms of feeling and feedback from the road. Not saying better or worse, just much different, of course the cayman is a better car in allround use, but the point is just here!! This is a car which have no competitors today, it is just different from an elise and a cayman, very well said that it is just in between as someone said above. It is fast , the turbo lag is present but not disturbing and you can powerslide a lot, and this is sooo fun and easy to control.  I would buy this car it is just much more fun to drive and gives you supercar felling.

993 c2

xander71:

The car is nervous just like i did expect and all the writing about the bad steering and understeer, is just not true in this car that I drove, it is sharp in the corners and very immediate, 

the 'issue' is when the roads are bumpy and uneven .. and the steering seems to have a mind of its own 

 

xander71:

Test drove it yesterday morning thanks to a friend who has got one in  september with all updated and with 3000 km.

Red and black interior, I skip all the things aboute style etc...

just give you my drive impressions: the car is fun a lot of fun , it's fast and of course I want to have more hp but that is the same with almost all cars. The feeling is that it is a little bit  underpowered due to the fact that with this chassis it would clarely handle much more hp.  I drove it on the twisty streets to florence and down to bologna again, it's the street where every saturday and sunday all bikers have a lot of fun. So the perfect territory for the 4c .I did skip the autostrada test since it is not of my interest try it on a straight line at 250 kmh. The car is nervous just like i did expect and all the writing about the bad steering and understeer, is just not true in this car that I drove, it is sharp in the corners and very immediate, so just don't think about a cayman which is a different car, almost a mercedes compared to the 4c in terms of feeling and feedback from the road. Not saying better or worse, just much different, of course the cayman is a better car in allround use, but the point is just here!! This is a car which have no competitors today, it is just different from an elise and a cayman, very well said that it is just in between as someone said above. It is fast , the turbo lag is present but not disturbing and you can powerslide a lot, and this is sooo fun and easy to control.  I would buy this car it is just much more fun to drive and gives you supercar felling.

Now that mirrors my ownership experience of the 4C in a nutshell  It very much feels like a junior old school supercar in terms of it's handling which is raw and exciting and not been over polished like many of today's cars. I agree on the Cayman feeling like a Mercedes in comparison as you sit higher in the Porsche and are much more insulated from the car in terms of NVH levels. The Cayman GTS I had felt like a luxury GT car in comparison to the Alfa.

The seating position in the 4C is almost go kart like and the steering feel tunes you in to concentrate like no other car I've owned if you use the power on more challenging roads.

This review is one of the most honest and objective I've seen on the car https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WVSuq56MAw