Crown

1. I think that this kind of fine is a very good solution (and: it was created at a time when in (Western-) Germany socialism was enemy No. One)

   Why: this special fine because of his frogerty of the official decal should equal a fine of 55 days in prison (if he can’t pay the fine (or maybe don’t want to, I don’t know), he has to go to prison for 55 days. Probably nobody wants to build more prisons full of people spending some days, some weeks in prison. Prison should be for the really bad guys.

   55 days in prison is bad for the rich and the poor (if you are not used to spend your whole live at this nice place ).

   What other possibility we have to find a fine which is equal to everybody? 550€? 5500€ You and I would be angry for 55min, this guy would be angry for 55s while talking to someone of his staff to pay the money and a third poor person has trouble to pay his bills for 55 days. So equal money can’t be the equal alternative to send someone to prison.

   (I don’t know if 55 days in prison the correct fine is when you manipulate/imitate an official seal/decal/document )

2.  Less years in prison because of manslaughter than for tax evasion is wrong. But manslaughter could happen in seconds (car accident) while heavy tax evasion needs a plan and execution for a very long time, this doesn’t happen by accident but on purpose

3. Rummenigge:I don’t know what’s wrong with this fine. We have rules and laws. A guy like Rummenigge knows what he does. Leading a multi million € company with several deals all over the world should know that he has to pay tax if he imports expensive goods to the EU. We all know it if we import our cheap iPad/Nikon/Rolex from outside the EU. Follow the law and you don’t have trouble. And if you don’t like the law become an active politician and try to change it

Becoming an active politician? No thanks, I won't go that path, almost did. I am way too honest and straight forward for that, I'm no natural diplomat, this requires someone who can lie and cheat and feel good about it.  Not me, sorry.

Regarding laws, I get your point but I still do not agree. Either people are equal or they are not. Connecting punishments to income is not following the principle that all people are equal before the law, sorry to say that.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

Becoming an active politician? No thanks, I won't go that path, almost did. I am way too honest and straight forward for that, I'm no natural diplomat, this requires someone who can lie and cheat and feel good about it.  Not me, sorry.

Regarding laws, I get your point but I still do not agree. Either people are equal or they are not. Connecting punishments to income is not following the principle that all people are equal before the law, sorry to say that.

If longer jail sentences were imposed on affluent criminals than on impecunious ones for the same crime I would agree with you, but we are talking here about fines.

Where would be the equality before the law of imposing the same monetary fine on two people when, for example, for one the amount represents what he feeds his family on for a couple of weeks and for the other just the price of the bottle of wine he orders for a dinner with his wife at a good restaurant? 

fritz

I socialist countries, all people are equal on paper but some are less than others depending on their wallet, You have to go apologising for earning more than average, and being discriminated for it, this above is just an example. Which does wonders for the economy as we can see around the world 

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

fritz:

Where would be the equality before the law of imposing the same monetary fine on two people when, for example, for one the amount represents what he feeds his family on for a couple of weeks and for the other just the price of the bottle of wine he orders for a dinner with his wife at a good restaurant? 

True but this would be valid for all instances of life, wouldn't it? 

This is the downside of a true democratic free country and an all people are equal before the law principle: Accepting differences, as painful as they may be.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Two worngs don't make a right IMO. Sure that fixed flat fine will not have the same punishment effect on a rich person than on a poor person, but that does not justify trumping the right to be equal before the law.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Carlos from Spain:

Two worngs don't make a right IMO. Sure that fixed flat fine will not have the same punishment effect on a rich person than on a poor person, but that does not justify trumping the right to be equal before the law.

 Exactly what I mean. 

How absurd this laws are actually shows what happened to a guy I know, he is not rich but works as a simple employee at a pharmaceutical company I have contacts to: One day, a VW T5 bus hit him on a boardwalk, it wasn't his fault, the driver was only 16 years old and had no driver's license. His parents have eight(!) kids and are both unemployed, the car was not insured(!). Now this whole thing went to court because that guy I know was hurt badly, he couldn't work for six months, he had to pay many bills for recuperation, lawyer, etc. and health gymnastics by himself because his (state controlled) health insurance won't pay for it and the accident insurance only the medical part of it.

Bottom line is: Since there was no income, "my" guy had to pay a couple of thousands of Euro out of his personal pocket. That family and that boy did not get any punishment ("there is nothing to get from them..." according to his lawyer and the judge) and since the whole family is in a bad situation, the boy didn't even get jail because the judge said it would hurt the family and wouldn't help the boy at all. They didn't even made them sell that sorry ass old T5 because the judge said they need it for the family (several minors) to buy groceries, etc. because they were living outside the city.

So what did that 16 year old boy learn from that? Simple. He drove without a driver's license, he hit a person, he drove with a car without insurance and he got away without any kind of punishment (oh well, the judge made him promise to not do it again... ).

Sorry guys but when I hear stories like this one (and it is 100% true, not something you read on the internet ), I get so upset.

Equal before the law? Nah. If you're rich, they bust your ass. If you're poor, you're in luck. Talking of equality. My ass. ​

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Whoopsy:

apias:

See, even Whoopsy agrees that a Flat Fine would be fair.

 

Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Flat fine means a set dollar amount for offences for EVERYONE, that's called EQUAL. 

Flat "%" fine is not fair at all. Why would anyone like progressive stuff? Say Joe Smith down the road can buy a Porsche 911 C2 for 100k while I with a net worth 10x of his will need to pay a million for the same car? Really? You think that's 'fair'?

 

I can say it almost applies, but not on the same soil

Starting price for a Carrera S in Germany is 110,766 EUR (165,398.97 SGD)

Starting price for a Carrera S in Singapore is 508,888 SGD (340,834.00 EUR)

I have a cousin who lives outside the EU and he asked me once what cars we drive in the family, he never visited me and I told him a Porsche 911 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet and a Macan Turbo. Apparently he looked up the prices of these cars in his country and replied "wow, you must be super rich". Our Macan Turbo is around 260k EUR there and my 911 is close to 400k EUR. Ouch.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

It's really all about envy and money grabbing by the government in the name of socialist morality. What's next, higher parking ticket fines for luxury brand cars? It's all a slippery slope, start that crap and see where it leads to. Apias and Fritz might like idea with their logic  but even the DDR didn't do that.

So we have three different solutions for a case like this

1. Send the poor and the rich for 55 days to prison – let’s build some new prisons!

2. Both have to pay an equal sum of money – no or nearly no sentence for the rich

3. Both have to pay a sum calculate by a formula like “days in prison * daily income” –the rich moaning “unfair - socialism”

My vote goes to c)

(Sorry normally I don’t use the word “the rich”, statistically I belong to this group, I really don’t like it, but I can’t find a better word)

JimFlat6:

It's really all about envy and money grabbing by the government in the name of socialist morality. What's next, higher parking ticket fines for luxury brand cars? It's all a slippery slope, start that crap and see where it leads to. Apias and Fritz might like that but even the DDR didn't do that.

I doubt they like that but they seem to be used to it. Yes, it sounds reasonable but it isn't. This is the mistake we always make.

How about me charging more for my merchandise depending on income? Does this sound right? Or how about a doctor charging a rich guy 5000 for a check-up and the poor guy only 50 bucks? Does this sound right? Seriously?

The government (and the media unfortunately) has induced some sort of self image in people that these things, charging the rich more, are right and reasonable. No, they not right and reasonable. 

I am not even rich by most standards, so why would I think this is wrong? It starts with the rich and won't stop with the poor sooner or later. This is typical. Governments need to have less control, not more control. People don't seem to realize what is going on. The more control the government has, the more difficult it is going to be to turn to a slimmer government. Actually, it is impossible and I never heard of a country reducing government and firing government employees in masses. It never happened, it won't happen and this is very very sad.

The EU is actually the best example: We basically have two friggin' governments, which is insane (and super expensive).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Itsme:

So we have three different solutions for a case like this

1. Send the poor and the rich for 55 days to prison – let’s build some new prisons!

2. Both have to pay an equal sum of money – no or nearly no sentence for the rich

3. Both have to pay a sum calculate by a formula like “days in prison * daily income” –the rich moaning “unfair - socialism”

My vote goes to c)

(Sorry normally I don’t use the word “the rich”, statistically I belong to this group, I really don’t like it, but I can’t find a better word)

Try "affluent" (=wohlhabend).  It doesn't carry carry the same "class-war" baggage.  

fritz

JimFlat6:

It's really all about envy and money grabbing by the government in the name of socialist morality. What's next, higher parking ticket fines for luxury brand cars? It's all a slippery slope, start that crap and see where it leads to. Apias and Fritz might like idea with their logic  but even the DDR didn't do that.

 

1) Wrong, this case has nothing to do with grabbing money by the govement. The biggest part of the fine goes to a charity organisation

2) Selling goods or services is a different story. Everybody has the right so sell his goods or service for a price made by the vendor. We are talking about fines

Itsme:

So we have three different solutions for a case like this

1. Send the poor and the rich for 55 days to prison – let’s build some new prisons!

2. Both have to pay an equal sum of money – no or nearly no sentence for the rich

3. Both have to pay a sum calculate by a formula like “days in prison * daily income” –the rich moaning “unfair - socialism”

My vote goes to c)

(Sorry normally I don’t use the word “the rich”, statistically I belong to this group, I really don’t like it, but I can’t find a better word)

I have a much simpler solution: 

Same prison time and/or fine for everyone. Simple as that. 

Violent crimes should always be punished with prison. Robbing, stealing as well.

Crimes without hurting other people directly and/or damaging/stealing their property, should be punished by a fine.

Crimes "damaging" only the government (taxes, document fraud without "damaging" other people, etc.) should be punished by a fine only. However I get the feeling that the government cares more about these crimes against "them" than any violent crime. 

Btw: If a rich guy kills his wife because he caught her cheating, even a good lawyer shouldn't be able to help. He killed a human being, he is going to prison. Same goes to poor people of course.

We need clear guidelines regarding the law, no exceptions for anyone, rich or poor. Same law for everyone. This works for me and I bet it would work for everyone but it could put some lawyers, especially in the US , out of a job.  

Oh and if some smartypants now tells me that the government is us, the people, I start pooping my pants.  This ship has sailed a long time ago, basically in every country on this planet.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

Carlos from Spain:

Two worngs don't make a right IMO. Sure that fixed flat fine will not have the same punishment effect on a rich person than on a poor person, but that does not justify trumping the right to be equal before the law.

 Exactly what I mean. 

How absurd this laws are actually shows what happened to a guy I know, he is not rich but works as a simple employee at a pharmaceutical company I have contacts to: One day, a VW T5 bus hit him on a boardwalk, it wasn't his fault, the driver was only 16 years old and had no driver's license. His parents have eight(!) kids and are both unemployed, the car was not insured(!). Now this whole thing went to court because that guy I know was hurt badly, he couldn't work for six months, he had to pay many bills for recuperation, lawyer, etc. and health gymnastics by himself because his (state controlled) health insurance won't pay for it and the accident insurance only the medical part of it.

Bottom line is: Since there was no income, "my" guy had to pay a couple of thousands of Euro out of his personal pocket. That family and that boy did not get any punishment ("there is nothing to get from them..." according to his lawyer and the judge) and since the whole family is in a bad situation, the boy didn't even get jail because the judge said it would hurt the family and wouldn't help the boy at all. They didn't even made them sell that sorry ass old T5 because the judge said they need it for the family (several minors) to buy groceries, etc. because they were living outside the city.

So what did that 16 year old boy learn from that? Simple. He drove without a driver's license, he hit a person, he drove with a car without insurance and he got away without any kind of punishment (oh well, the judge made him promise to not do it again... ).

Sorry guys but when I hear stories like this one (and it is 100% true, not something you read on the internet ), I get so upset.

Equal before the law? Nah. If you're rich, they bust your ass. If you're poor, you're in luck. Talking of equality. My ass. ​

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

 

Yes bad story. This is always the problem. It is difficult to find a solution for the absolute low and top end

It is all about money grabbing. Charity?  Well they met their payroll for a few months.  A repeat license plate offender like him in the US would likely get thirty days in jail. Fwiw the us has constitutional protection from excessive fines no matter how well "intended"

JimFlat6:

It is all about money grabbing. Charity?  Well they met their payroll for a few months.  A repeat license plate offender like him in the US would likely get thirty days in jail. Fwiw the us has constitutional protection from excessive fines no matter how well "intended"

Which sounds reasonable for a repeat offender and such an offense. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

fritz:

RC:

Becoming an active politician? No thanks, I won't go that path, almost did. I am way too honest and straight forward for that, I'm no natural diplomat, this requires someone who can lie and cheat and feel good about it.  Not me, sorry.

Regarding laws, I get your point but I still do not agree. Either people are equal or they are not. Connecting punishments to income is not following the principle that all people are equal before the law, sorry to say that.

If longer jail sentences were imposed on affluent criminals than on impecunious ones for the same crime I would agree with you, but we are talking here about fines.

Where would be the equality before the law of imposing the same monetary fine on two people when, for example, for one the amount represents what he feeds his family on for a couple of weeks and for the other just the price of the bottle of wine he orders for a dinner with his wife at a good restaurant? 

Connecting fines to income/assets does not in any way violate the principle that all are equal before the law. To say that it does is utterly ridiculous. However, it's exactly the situation that fritz highlights that effectively undermines the concept of equal before the law: when the consequences to one of breaking the law are trivial, one is free to ignore it, thus negating the existence of the law for those free to ignore it. How is this "equal before the law"? It isn't. And it's this very inequality before the law that trivial consequences produces that undermines democracy.

RC:

Carlos from Spain:

Two worngs don't make a right IMO. Sure that fixed flat fine will not have the same punishment effect on a rich person than on a poor person, but that does not justify trumping the right to be equal before the law.

 Exactly what I mean. 

How absurd this laws are actually shows what happened to a guy I know, he is not rich but works as a simple employee at a pharmaceutical company I have contacts to: One day, a VW T5 bus hit him on a boardwalk, it wasn't his fault, the driver was only 16 years old and had no driver's license. His parents have eight(!) kids and are both unemployed, the car was not insured(!). Now this whole thing went to court because that guy I know was hurt badly, he couldn't work for six months, he had to pay many bills for recuperation, lawyer, etc. and health gymnastics by himself because his (state controlled) health insurance won't pay for it and the accident insurance only the medical part of it.

Bottom line is: Since there was no income, "my" guy had to pay a couple of thousands of Euro out of his personal pocket. That family and that boy did not get any punishment ("there is nothing to get from them..." according to his lawyer and the judge) and since the whole family is in a bad situation, the boy didn't even get jail because the judge said it would hurt the family and wouldn't help the boy at all. They didn't even made them sell that sorry ass old T5 because the judge said they need it for the family (several minors) to buy groceries, etc. because they were living outside the city.

So what did that 16 year old boy learn from that? Simple. He drove without a driver's license, he hit a person, he drove with a car without insurance and he got away without any kind of punishment (oh well, the judge made him promise to not do it again... ).

Sorry guys but when I hear stories like this one (and it is 100% true, not something you read on the internet ), I get so upset.

Equal before the law? Nah. If you're rich, they bust your ass. If you're poor, you're in luck. Talking of equality. My ass. ​
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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

That story is disgusting  (oh, and eight children and unemplyed... smaaaaaar!t   )

A "good" judge would of at least made him pay in terms of social works by having to dedicate his free time to charitable organisations for a period of set time, in this case one related to helping victims of motor vehicle accidents for example. He doesn't have to pay money, he doesn't have to loose work, yet he has to face up to the consecuencies of his actions by law like any other citizen and he will also learn something related with his crime while doing it.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

RC:

fritz:

Where would be the equality before the law of imposing the same monetary fine on two people when, for example, for one the amount represents what he feeds his family on for a couple of weeks and for the other just the price of the bottle of wine he orders for a dinner with his wife at a good restaurant? 

True but this would be valid for all instances of life, wouldn't it? 

I get it that the affluent (there ya go, Itsme, an example for the use of that term ) generally have a more comfortable life than the impecunious and fully accept it, and not just because I don't count myself to the latter group.
I'm also not a socialist, and I approve of a system in which people are better rewarded for making greater efforts to pay their own way in life and I have fairly limited sympathy for those who go through life expecting "society" as a whole to generously make up for their own lack of initiative, or motivation, or just for their general fecklessness.  

But we are not talking here about redistribution of wealth or collection of taxes; it doesn't have anything to do with socialism. We are talking about imposing fines as one punitive measure to discourage individuals or groups from committing or recommitting offences against laws which are made on our behalf in more-or-less democratic societies, (I may not necessarily agree with all laws made on "my" behalf, but that is a different topic altogether). 

For fines to work as a punitive measure, they have to "hurt" the law-breaker to an appropriate degree to match the transgression. It doesn't take a genius to realise that this is not achieved by imposing fines of a certain monetary amount regardless of the financial means of the transgressor. An alternative to graduated fines to achieve a more equitable result would naturally be to impose jail sentences. The maximum sentence in Germany for the crime committed in this instance ("Urkundenfälschung") is 5 years. Five years are five years, affluent or broke. I don't know if the guy in question was offered that alternative, but I think I know how he would have chosen in the event. I think I wrote earlier that he appears to have  got off relatively lightly. 

fritz

+1

And probably any judge had the possibility (=law) to act like you suggested. But as always not every professional is a good professional

For fines to work as a punitive measure, they have to "hurt" the law-breaker to an appropriate degree to match the transgression

So where do these fines start (and with whom) and where do they end? I disagree, sorry.

If you want to hurt a billionaire, 150k EUR won't cut it. Not even close. 

If you want to send a message to the public, "lookie here...we busted his sorrow billionaire's ass", the 150k are just perfect. Other than that, it doesn't really hurt a billionaire. Also, they could have told him to pay this money to charity, a clear possibility of German laws. Anything more than 150k would have very likely ended up with the constitutional court sooner or later because this was really "nothing", especially compared to the clear tax evasion of Rummenigge and his two Rolex watches for example. Judging by the many comments of ordinary people in social forums, I think that (to my surprise), many people seem to agree with me. 

Equal before the law also means to accept that people, no matter how much income they have, are treated equal, including equal fines. The standard fines are valid for all people, so if I get a parking ticket, I pay my 10 EUR and if Bill Gates gets a parking ticket in Germany, he pays the same 10 EUR for the same offense. This means equal, everything else is just government bullshit.

Now you may mention the VW affair in this but this is a completely different story because we are talking about a company here and ripping off individuals. For me, this is a big difference.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

+1

(but I think I stick to "rich". It's more obvious )

RC:

For fines to work as a punitive measure, they have to "hurt" the law-breaker to an appropriate degree to match the transgression

So where do these fines start (and with whom) and where do they end? I disagree, sorry.

If you want to hurt a billionaire, 150k EUR won't cut it. Not even close. 

If you want to send a message to the public, "lookie here...we busted his sorrow billionaire's ass", the 150k are just perfect. Other than that, it doesn't really hurt a billionaire. Also, they could have told him to pay this money to charity, a clear possibility of German laws. Anything more than 150k would have very likely ended up with the constitutional court sooner or later because this was really "nothing", especially compared to the clear tax evasion of Rummenigge and his two Rolex watches for example. Judging by the many comments of ordinary people in social forums, I think that (to my surprise), many people seem to agree with me. 

Equal before the law also means to accept that people, no matter how much income they have, are treated equal, including equal fines. The standard fines are valid for all people, so if I get a parking ticket, I pay my 10 EUR and if Bill Gates gets a parking ticket in Germany, he pays the same 10 EUR for the same offense. This means equal, everything else is just government bullshit.

Now you may mention the VW affair in this but this is a completely different story because we are talking about a company here and ripping off individuals. For me, this is a big difference.

IIRC, the court did make him pay the money to a charity. A quick search didn't turn up the report in which I had read that. 

When you say "nothing", you overlook the fact that he was done for "Urkundenfaelschung", not just for repeatedly being caught without a front number plate  -  which would only have cost him €60. The "ordinary people on social forums" who agree with you will also have overlooked this.

fritz

A friend of mine drove for years in his Mazda MX-5 with a sticker license plate in the front and no seal or whatever. When the police caught him (after years!), actually he had paid two photo speed trap fines and still didn't have issues with that plate, they left him off with a warning and the request to present the car at the local police station within ten days or so. He complied. No further issues or punishment.

I get it, that billionaire was kind of dumb because he made a copy of the seal but he didn't make it by hand, it wasn't a forgery, he copied the whole normal license plate onto a sticker plate as far as I understood. Wow, what an offense, he needs to go to prison for life.  The car was officially registered and insured, big deal.

Seriously, we can discuss this all day long but I still don't see why he has been fined that much. I am also pretty sure that the judge ordered him to pay the 150k to charity (if true) because he wanted to be in the clear, he knew what a shitstorm would hit him if the government would have cashed in that money. Also, the culprit was under pressure (charity...billionaire...you get the point here) to play ball and swallow the bitter pill.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

The last time German courts imposed huge, out of proportion  fines and fees was against Jews in the 30s. Now I guess it's the turn of another class to get hammered by moralizing control freaks.

JimFlat6:

The last time German courts imposed huge, out of proportion  fines and fees was against Jews in the 30s. Now I guess it's the turn of another class to get hammered by moralizing control freaks.

Jim, stop trivializing the Holocaust. There is no equating these things.

JimFlat6:

The last time German courts imposed huge, out of proportion  fines and fees was against Jews in the 30s. Now I guess it's the turn of another class to get hammered by moralizing control freaks.

Well, I wouldn't really compare both, it seems quite a bit inappropriate but sometimes I really get the feeling that German judges are quite nitpicking, especially when they have to deal with wealthy culprits.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

apias:

JimFlat6:

The last time German courts imposed huge, out of proportion  fines and fees was against Jews in the 30s. Now I guess it's the turn of another class to get hammered by moralizing control freaks.

Jim, stop trivializing the Holocaust. There is no equating these things.

Trivializing the Holocaust or the word Nazi unfortunately happens quite often.  For many it is a synonyme for oppression, many are not really aware of the ineloquent use of this word.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)