Crown

RC, regarding the street legality of track cars;
You mention the adding of another seat to the GT4cs., yet adding rear seats to a GT3 is very very difficult if not impossible... are there different rules for rear vs front seats, or so?

BjoernB:

100% correct - HANS would be mandatory otherwise it is more dangerous for you're neck - even when u have a small accident only

This is BS. A race car with a 6-point harness and a race shell is safer in an accident than an airbag only. HANS is just additional protection, it does not replace an airbag and actually has a completely different (protection) task. Oh boy... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Joost:

RC, regarding the street legality of track cars;
You mention the adding of another seat to the GT4cs., yet adding rear seats to a GT3 is very very difficult if not impossible... are there different rules for rear vs front seats, or so?

Yes and no. It is possible in Germany to get something called "Einzelabnahme", which is some sort of individual certification for a single product. It isn't easy and sometimes the manufacturer (in the case of GT3 rear seats Porsche) kind of tries to make it impossible. However, it is quite possible to make a race car street legal with some mods, as some Cup and RSR owners have already proven. Such certifications are, as far as I know, not supported in any way by Porsche or Porsche Motorsport. This kind of certification is expensive and only worth it if the car is special and if you have tons of money to spend for toys. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

BjoernB:

100% correct - HANS would be mandatory otherwise it is more dangerous for you're neck - even when u have a small accident only

This is BS. A race car with a 6-point harness and a race shell is safer in an accident than an airbag only. HANS is just additional protection, it does not replace an airbag and actually has a completely different (protection) task. Oh boy... 

 A (FIA-approved) racing 6 point harness has a different buckle to a street-legal 6-point harness. The racing harness can never be street-legal and the street harness is not acceptable for race use at officially sanctioned events. 

fritz

fritz:

RC:

BjoernB:

100% correct - HANS would be mandatory otherwise it is more dangerous for you're neck - even when u have a small accident only

This is BS. A race car with a 6-point harness and a race shell is safer in an accident than an airbag only. HANS is just additional protection, it does not replace an airbag and actually has a completely different (protection) task. Oh boy... 

 A (FIA-approved) racing 6 point harness has a different buckle to a street-legal 6-point harness. The racing harness can never be street-legal and the street harness is not acceptable for race use at officially sanctioned events. 

True but they both are still safer than simple airbags with a 3 point buckle system. People need to understand what an airbag is...a restraint system, which has been developed to improve and add to the safety of 3 point buckle systems. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

You guys first need to agree on what you are disagreeing about. 
Is it:
a) the feasibility of making a dedicated racing car street legal
or
b) the relative merits of racing-car and road-car passive safety measures in a major accident?

fritz

RC - stop pretending to know everything and learn :  if you're strapped in a harness ur upperbody does not move or very Little  - in a accident you're neck overstretches - hence the Invention of HANS (HeadandNeckSupport) to keep you're head in Position so you don't break it like Ratzenberger in Formula 1 or have a huge Whip-lash  - to call this BS disqualifies you badly.....

BjoernB:

RC - stop pretending to know everything and learn :  if you're strapped in a harness ur upperbody does not move or very Little  - in a accident you're neck overstretches - hence the Invention of HANS (HeadandNeckSupport) to keep you're head in Position so you don't break it like Ratzenberger in Formula 1 or have a huge Whip-lash  - to call this BS disqualifies you badly.....

Not an expert by any means, but two observation here:

1. Hans is a relatively recent invention. I don't think too many racing drivers died of neck breaking in the many many years prior in motor racing?

2. We are talking about road legal speeds here. I would have thought a 6 point harness and roll cage would be safer than airbag no? At least in my country where road speed is only up to 110kmh. 

fritz:

You guys first need to agree on what you are disagreeing about. 
Is it:
a) the feasibility of making a dedicated racing car street legal
or
b) the relative merits of racing-car and road-car passive safety measures in a major accident?

We can agree to disagree?  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Since I just brought my 997 Mk2 RS to the "TUV" (Government Body to check you're car periodically every 5 years mandatory in CH) I just had this discussion with them as I have a original Harness from Porsche which now needed code 400 (entrance in the cars document that I am not allowed to use it unless on track) - otherwise they would have asked me to take it out ! Reason is safety.....- but hey what do they know.....

BjoernB:

RC - stop pretending to know everything and learn :  if you're strapped in a harness ur upperbody does not move or very Little  - in a accident you're neck overstretches - hence the Invention of HANS (HeadandNeckSupport) to keep you're head in Position so you don't break it like Ratzenberger in Formula 1 or have a huge Whip-lash  - to call this BS disqualifies you badly.....

Now you are a doctor?  

So what are we talking here? Legal speeds on a public road or track action? Maybe you should re-read the past 10 posts or so. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

BjoernB:

Since I just brought my 997 Mk2 RS to the "TUV" (Government Body to check you're car periodically every 5 years mandatory in CH) I just had this discussion with them as I have a original Harness from Porsche which now needed code 400 (entrance in the cars document that I am not allowed to use it unless on track) - otherwise they would have asked me to take it out ! Reason is safety.....- but hey what do they know.....

Yeah, I'm sure this has something to do with your neck snapping and not the rescuers (or you in case you are able to do so) being able to unstrap you (cut the belt) fast in the case of an accident.  

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

ahhh - ok - now I get it - when you do legally 120 km/h or 80 km/h on public roads it's different when u have a accident ....- well I tried at least.... - best is just to ignore u...

BjoernB:

ahhh - ok - now I get it - when you do legally 120 km/h or 80 km/h on public roads it's different when u have a accident ....- well I tried at least.... - best is just to ignore u...

I do not question the effectiveness of HANS, god forbid, you seem to misunderstand what I am saying.

A GT4 Clubsport with road legal certification wouldn't be more risky to drive on public roads than the street car GT4 because it lacks airbags. This is my point. It is up to you to get it.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

WAY:

Not an expert by any means, but two observation here:

1. Hans is a relatively recent invention. I don't think too many racing drivers died of neck breaking in the many many years prior in motor racing?

2. We are talking about road legal speeds here. I would have thought a 6 point harness and roll cage would be safer than airbag no? At least in my country where road speed is only up to 110kmh. 

1.Is is a 30 year old invention. See here for details https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HANS_device and a list of "famous" race drivers who died from neck injury.

2. You have close to zero elasticity with a 6-point harness and the deacceleration force on the body is quite different than with a street legal 3-point belt. This in particular can cause fatal neck traumas. The full roll cage does make the car more structurally strong, but the front section of the cage can cause head trauma if you are unprotected without a helmet. You can Google all this if you want the facts. Or you could listen to the forum expert who knows everything better than all of us together  

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

bluelines:

WAY:

Not an expert by any means, but two observation here:

1. Hans is a relatively recent invention. I don't think too many racing drivers died of neck breaking in the many many years prior in motor racing?

2. We are talking about road legal speeds here. I would have thought a 6 point harness and roll cage would be safer than airbag no? At least in my country where road speed is only up to 110kmh. 

1.Is is a 30 year old invention. See here for details https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HANS_device and a list of "famous" race drivers who died from neck injury.

2. You have close to zero elasticity with a 6-point harness and the deacceleration force on the body is quite different than with a street legal 3-point belt. This in particular can cause fatal neck traumas. The full roll cage does make the car more structurally strong, but the front section of the cage can cause head trauma if you are unprotected without a helmet. You can Google all this if you want the facts. Or you could listen to the forum expert who knows everything better than all of us together  

+1 

fritz

bluelines:

WAY:

Not an expert by any means, but two observation here:

1. Hans is a relatively recent invention. I don't think too many racing drivers died of neck breaking in the many many years prior in motor racing?

2. We are talking about road legal speeds here. I would have thought a 6 point harness and roll cage would be safer than airbag no? At least in my country where road speed is only up to 110kmh. 

1.Is is a 30 year old invention. See here for details https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HANS_device and a list of "famous" race drivers who died from neck injury.

2. You have close to zero elasticity with a 6-point harness and the deacceleration force on the body is quite different than with a street legal 3-point belt. This in particular can cause fatal neck traumas. The full roll cage does make the car more structurally strong, but the front section of the cage can cause head trauma if you are unprotected without a helmet. You can Google all this if you want the facts. Or you could listen to the forum expert who knows everything better than all of us together  

So maybe you can answer this: Why is there a Hybrid available for 3 point belts?  

How many cervical fractures (oops...forgot...snapped necks) have you seen in road car accidents with airbags? Little hint: There are many. The airbags do not protect from this kind of injury.

You claimed that the GT4 Clubsport is not as safe as a GT4 because of the lack of airbags. Remember?!

Also, you would never get a street legal certification by the TÜV with a full roll cage going near your head, only for the back part of the car.

I kind of have the feeling that you are talking safety standards on track cars and I am talking about using a racing car on a public road with the proper street legal certification mods.

Also, again, you were talking airbags and now you are talking HANS. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

It is forbidden to use 6-point harnesses in regular traffic in Sweden, and as I understands it, in Germany.

It would have been interesting to learn what the motivation for this actually is. I have contacted the Swedish Traffic Council to see what they say.

Kobalt:

It is forbidden to use 6-point harnesses in regular traffic in Sweden, and as I understands it, in Germany.

It would have been interesting to learn what the motivation for this actually is.

As I wrote above, the buckles are different. Unless you get the 6-point belts which have a red press-button release similar to that used on "normal" 3-point belts, which are then certainly street-legal in Germany and presumably also in Sweden.
The reasoning behind it is that the mode of operation of the FIA-approved turn-buckle on racing belts would not be immediately recognisable to everyone who might get involved in releasing occupants from a car in a road accident. 

fritz

Kobalt:

It is forbidden to use 6-point harnesses in regular traffic in Sweden, and as I understands it, in Germany.

It would have been interesting to learn what the motivation for this actually is.

Schroth offers 6 point harnesses (without FIA homologation though) for street legal use, they have an ECE certification, TÜV is not necessary. There are specific rules how street legal harness systems work, up to the point that there needs to be a red button to open the restraint.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

fritz:

Kobalt:

It is forbidden to use 6-point harnesses in regular traffic in Sweden, and as I understands it, in Germany.

It would have been interesting to learn what the motivation for this actually is.

As I wrote above, the buckles are different. Unless you get the 6-point belts which have a red press-button release similar to that used on "normal" 3-point belts, which are then certainly street-legal in Germany and presumably also in Sweden.
The reasoning behind it is that the mode of operation of the FIA-approved turn-buckle on racing belts would not be immediately recognisable to everyone who might get involved in releasing occupants from a car in a road accident. 

Finally... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Since one would not wear a helmet on the street, I think that in absence of a front cage the forces in the event of a crash would be less important on the neck. (just adding the weight element to the discussion)

RC:

Whoopsy:

Man that GT4CS is THE Cayman that I lusted after.

PERFECT!!!!!!

With some luck, you could gain a street legal certification...I don't know the laws in Canada though.

This is a very interesting car and with PDK, this is a monster.

--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

 

I didn't make my intension clear. Wasn't looking at this as a 'street car', but the perfect track car for me to keep at my track club. 

No sport chrono....what about resale!? 

Ah...now I get it, Nick. Then, you'd better contact Porsche Motorsport soon. 👍

Dammit...all that argueing with Bluelines for nothing. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

JLZ:

No sport chrono....what about resale!? 

The resale value of this car is indeed a good question. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

JLZ:

No sport chrono....what about resale!? 

Get the more expensive GT4 "Cup"​ then you probably will get this Sport Chrono. 

Regarding PDK or PDK-S, this only has 6 gears to comply with the class rules.  So, ratios may not be as good as 7spd PDK-S in the GT3, but I'm sure the shift speed is at least as fast and same behavior (no creep when stopped, etc.).

--

16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Grant:

Regarding PDK or PDK-S, this only has 6 gears to comply with the class rules.  So, ratios may not be as good as 7spd PDK-S in the GT3, but I'm sure the shift speed is at least as fast and same behavior (no creep when stopped, etc.).

--

 

16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

 

The GT4 Clubsport sounds like an amazing fun tool for US Clubsport Racing. It was about time and the car is even "affordable". If I'd live in the US, I'd actually take this opportunity to be able to drive in a semi-professional class with all the official support and all, sounds like an amazing offer for those who want a bit more than just your usual casual track racing fun. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

Dammit...all that argueing with Bluelines for nothing. 

Dammit... what an anti-climax. Well, at least I won the argument.

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM