Crown

Not for several years thankfully. And no steel brakes either... Manual is a thing of the past. I love manual cars but I would not buy a 2016 car with a manual box, time and technology has changed...

This is a pointless argument since it is solely subjective. It is like discussing if red is better than yellow. People have different preferences and thankfully Porsche offered a choice with the GT4 being manual. Saying that it would have sold more if it was this way or that way is nothing else than speculation based on personal preference, especially if one has never even driven the car. Maybe if it had been pink and sported a Mini badge all the hairdressers would have gone bananas?

The fact that the GT4 won the eCoty 2015 and beat numerous 2-3 times more expensive super sports cars with dual-clutch transmissions is saying a lot. Really, a lot! I personally find this almost unbelievable and cannot wait to read the motivation. The eCoty is not decided by a single person, but by a group of auto journalists who get to drive everything. Yet, they choose a car with manual transmission. Or maybe it was the cup holders they fell in love with 

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

It is all about expectations. The GT4 despite being manual is better and faster than everyone though it would be and costs little vs the competition. Hence the result."Better" is subjective, but Porsche doesn't build a GT4 half the price of a GT3 where the GT4 is a better faster car...

...but it looks like they will build an R with manual which is slower, yet more expensive, than the "better faster GT3 

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

I guess carmakers are finally seeing the appeal in slower but 'more fun to drive' cars. This HP war has to end before it gets silly. They have to produce fun cars for the real world. There are lots of petrolheads who don't care (too much) about hp as long as the car gives you a smile while driving. 

Who cares if a manual is slower than a pdk? I find this discussion retarded. I use my PDK as a DD and frequent trackdays, some people are faster some are slower but that's not the point at a trackday, let alone on the road. If I wanted to race I bought myself a real race car. 

It really just comes down to how you use it. I love 3 pedals and don't care about all out performance, but I gotta admit, sometimes it's so nice just sticking it in auto and relaxing. Sometimes I really do just have to run errands and don't even want to be in the car at all, and those times are when I'm glad I have a DCT.

991 GT3 won 2013 eCoty with PDK and against stiff competition. its is not 2x-3x price of GT4.

Dario Franchetti owns a 991 GT3 with PDK-S and loves it. 

Mark Webber just ordered a 991 GT3 RS.

I understood Walter had a 991 GT3 RS on order but have not been able to substanciate that. He may have changed order to GT4. He is on record as saying that for an expert manual driver there are no more than a few 10ths of a track such as Spa or HH short in a PDK for him. It would be nice to have those skills.

I have GT4 on order. But Im a 911 fan and hardest thing for me will be getting my head around owning a "Gayman". Im a 911 snob having before moved to other format (968) and regretting it. 911 has history and mystique. I also know how to drive a 911 well having spent 15 years on then in road, traga and track (still have old air cooled with MT and love it). I know it makes no sense not to like Gayman because of format and position in range etc but I cant help myself. The 911R may well answer the problem for someone like me if MT but at what price? I use 991 GT3 mostly on track and it would be really hard now to choose a MT for track work. That said for road work I prefer MT. Maybe the 991.2 GT3 in MT/PDK will answer the question. I hate having choice now I have tasted PDK. Id rather they said GT3 will be Manual only and RS will be PDK only (fastest model in range on track etc). That would make my life easier I guess!

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2014 991 GT3, 1994 993C2 6spd RS spec, 2016 Cayman GT4 (on order)

macca993:

991 GT3 won 2013 eCoty with PDK and against stiff competition. its is not 2x-3x price of GT4.

Dario Franchetti owns a 991 GT3 with PDK-S and loves it. 

Mark Webber just ordered a 991 GT3 RS.

I understood Walter had a 991 GT3 RS on order but have not been able to substanciate that. He may have changed order to GT4. He is on record as saying that for an expert manual driver there are no more than a few 10ths of a track such as Spa or HH short in a PDK for him. It would be nice to have those skills.

I have GT4 on order. But Im a 911 fan and hardest thing for me will be getting my head around owning a "Gayman". Im a 911 snob having before moved to other format (968) and regretting it. 911 has history and mystique. I also know how to drive a 911 well having spent 15 years on then in road, traga and track (still have old air cooled with MT and love it). I know it makes no sense not to like Gayman because of format and position in range etc but I cant help myself. The 911R may well answer the problem for someone like me if MT but at what price? I use 991 GT3 mostly on track and it would be really hard now to choose a MT for track work. That said for road work I prefer MT. Maybe the 991.2 GT3 in MT/PDK will answer the question. I hate having choice now I have tasted PDK. Id rather they said GT3 will be Manual only and RS will be PDK only (fastest model in range on track etc). That would make my life easier I guess!

Ok, so that is three people then who loves PDK 

I really don't get the GT3 versus GT4 discussion and in particular that it always seem to end up in a manual versus PDK  arguing. Two different cars. Two different purposes. 

You soon have the best of both worlds macca  I am sure you will come to terms with your "Gayman" insecurity 

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

 Two different purposes. 

Really?

You are sure about that? I disagree fully.

Now that I have a direct comparison to the 997 RS with the GT3  - I understand those fully now who love PDK S ! IT IS amazing and much faster than any PDK I ever drove before. (also shifts miracously exactly when u want it to ) However, the involvement on a twisty mountain road with Manual is x times greater than the coolest PDK - although much slower.

as to Walter - he drives a 964RS for years privately as far as I understood.

In a perfect life , I would have my RS in PDK-S and a second  exact same RS with a manual 

 997.2 C2 ,  -20mm  I 964 Carrera 4 I 991 GT3 RS 

Gnil:

In a perfect life , I would have my RS in PDK-S and a second  exact same RS with a manual 

In a perfect life I'd have a 997 RS, a 991 RS and a Singer. I would die a happy man! 

I agree both a manual and a PDK-S have their advantages, both are brilliant in their own right hence choosing is losing.

2003 BMW M3 CSL (sold) / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS / 2013 MINI John Cooper Works GP / 2014 BMW Alpina D3 biturbo Touring

KresoF1:

 Two different purposes. 

Really?

You are sure about that? I disagree fully.

 

You not only disagree, but even fully disagree 

Well, as I see it the GT3 has become the benchmark for all track oriented sports cars. It is the one which all other brands measures themselves against. It needs to be in the absolute top when it comes to performance and lap times. Hence Porsche has to engineer it that way. It has rear-wheel steering, PDK and other tricks up t's sleeves because it makes it faster, not because it makes it a more involving drivers' car. It serves this purpose very well. Being the fastest.

The GT4 does not need to be the fastest. I think Porsche had may purposes for building this car, but being the top-of-the-line sports and track car was certainly not it. Then it would have had a more powerful engine and PDK. Hence, different purpose.

Obviously, in the end both cars have the same ultimate purpose. To generate a profit for Porsche 

So where is your disagreement?

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

BjoernB:

...the involvement on a twisty mountain road with Manual is x times greater than the coolest PDK.

Noooo!  How dare you?!  Get ready to get flamed...

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

 - well I can judge now

bluelines:

KresoF1:

 Two different purposes. 

Really?

You are sure about that? I disagree fully.

 

You not only disagree, but even fully disagree 

Well, as I see it the GT3 has become the benchmark for all track oriented sports cars. It is the one which all other brands measures themselves against. It needs to be in the absolute top when it comes to performance and lap times. Hence Porsche has to engineer it that way. It has rear-wheel steering, PDK and other tricks up t's sleeves because it makes it faster, not because it makes it a more involving drivers' car. It serves this purpose very well. Being the fastest.

The GT4 does not need to be the fastest. I think Porsche had may purposes for building this car, but being the top-of-the-line sports and track car was certainly not it. Then it would have had a more powerful engine and PDK. Hence, different purpose.

Obviously, in the end both cars have the same ultimate purpose. To generate a profit for Porsche 

So where is your disagreement?

Well, I see it differently.

991 GT3 is "digital" sportscar.

Cayman GT4 is "analogue" sportscar.

Purpose of both is ultimate drive dynamics, "feel" and pleasure.

Difference is only in level of overall involvement or how is this involvement achieved. 

To put it in High end audio words-best analogues (say it something like SME Model 30/12) or best digital( some dCS or Esoteric dac)? Well both achieve highest level of quality just, their interpretation will fit differenty into different ears...

Oh, I love Love spreads both on analogue and digital.

KresoF1:

bluelines:

KresoF1:

 Two different purposes. 

Really?

You are sure about that? I disagree fully.

 

You not only disagree, but even fully disagree 

Well, as I see it the GT3 has become the benchmark for all track oriented sports cars. It is the one which all other brands measures themselves against. It needs to be in the absolute top when it comes to performance and lap times. Hence Porsche has to engineer it that way. It has rear-wheel steering, PDK and other tricks up t's sleeves because it makes it faster, not because it makes it a more involving drivers' car. It serves this purpose very well. Being the fastest.

The GT4 does not need to be the fastest. I think Porsche had may purposes for building this car, but being the top-of-the-line sports and track car was certainly not it. Then it would have had a more powerful engine and PDK. Hence, different purpose.

Obviously, in the end both cars have the same ultimate purpose. To generate a profit for Porsche 

So where is your disagreement?

Well, I see it differently.

991 GT3 is "digital" sportscar.

Cayman GT4 is "analogue" sportscar.

Purpose of both is ultimate drive dynamics, "feel" and pleasure.

Difference is only in level of overall involvement or how is this involvement achieved. 

To put it in High end audio words-best analogues (say it something like SME Model 30/12) or best digital( some dCS or Esoteric dac)? Well both achieve highest level of quality just, their interpretation will fit differenty into different ears...

Oh, I love Love spreads both on analogue and digital.

Actually, then I don't think we are so far off in our views  

The purpose of the GT3 is also to be the fastest. That is where the purposes differ. The rest I all agree with. 

Love Spreads is good in all formats  

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

Uh, apparently we agree a lot.

Btw, are you for Rock music thread in off topic section? Think about to start one and in need for good participants. You are for sure a must participant in such a thread! 

I will always prefer the manual. I guess I'm a control freak. There are always those times when the old Porsche needs a push start too. I guess you have to own a car for more than two years to get to that point. I also prefer a real parking brake. Btw added new boost control valves to the TT. They are from evolution motorsports and they totally transformed the car. The stock ones had been leaking boost as they tend to do at 80000 miles. Highly recommend this fix if you feel boost is leaking or lag time is increasing. Parts and labor around $300. Best fix ever for old turbos. In the meantime I will keep driving my car and watching it appreciate due to manual and mezger fever.  And it is friggin quick now. 

After using PDK-S just for 2 days on track, and on wet surface, running the car in Auto-mode is probably not what you want to do to drive the PDK-S and enjoying it. Use the car as a manual that you don't need to clutch, then it is getting really nice. The same thing goes for the spirited drive on regular roads I would say. Get involved, don't just ride along.

Auto is perfect when just transporting yourself for some purpose (like taking nice photos of the car).

And of course it is much more work to drive a car with manual gearbox, and it takes more skill to do it properly.
But, if you know how to do that - then you can drive a PDK-S properly too. It is still the same physics that apply.

different car but i drive my 12C allways as a manual and not in auto mode.

That's the beauty of PDK, it can be driven as a manual at will. But the debate is more about the extra clutch pedal more than anything else. 

Whoopsy:

That's the beauty of PDK, it can be driven as a manual at will. But the debate is more about the extra clutch pedal more than anything else. 

Why not PDK-S Clutch?

An extra pedal for you to manage the clutches in the PDK...  if you want to  

Are you serious?

Just check out how really complicated PDK-S is. Extra pedal is from technical point of view not possible and totally meaningless.  

Want a extra pedal? Get a proper manual.

Kobalt:

Whoopsy:

That's the beauty of PDK, it can be driven as a manual at will. But the debate is more about the extra clutch pedal more than anything else. 

 

Why not PDK-S Clutch?

An extra pedal for you to manage the clutches in the PDK...  if you want to  

 

Or a movable dead pedal, so those who wants a clutch pedal feel can step on the dead pedal and pretend they did used the clutch on a PDK.

<blockquote><i>Whoopsy:</i><br /><p>That&#39;s the beauty of PDK, it can be driven as a manual at will. But the debate is more about the extra clutch pedal more than anything else.&nbsp;</p>

<p>&nbsp;</p>

</blockquote><p><br /></p>

The debate is about cojones and not manual. Some people still think that manual is what makes them a real pro driver but I can master 1076 Nm in a manual car with a dual disc high performance clutch which basically works like an on/off switch and I still prefer PDK because I can actually choose between both worlds.
Neither WR nor Lars Kern were driving in auto mode because they were required to do so but I cannot explain why. Lets say these weren't official events. The only official event I drove with WR as a driver was the 997 GT3 presentation in Munich (airport) and that car had manual because PDK wasn't available.
Don't get me wrong: I enjoy manual from time to time but the first traffic jam I'm stuck in wakes me up. Also, driving behind some camping mobiles on some pass roads and not being able to overtake is also pretty annoying with manual.
So manual is more of a philosophy in my opinion but I actually learned that many pro drivers like manual but aren't opposed to something like PDK. At all .
Also look at pro motorsports and tell me how many cars still have a classic clutch.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Kobalt:

After using PDK-S just for 2 days on track, and on wet surface, running the car in Auto-mode is probably not what you want to do to drive the PDK-S and enjoying it. Use the car as a manual that you don't need to clutch, then it is getting really nice. The same thing goes for the spirited drive on regular roads I would say. Get involved, don't just ride along.

Auto is perfect when just transporting yourself for some purpose (like taking nice photos of the car).

And of course it is much more work to drive a car with manual gearbox, and it takes more skill to do it properly.
But, if you know how to do that - then you can drive a PDK-S properly too. It is still the same physics that apply.

I drive my Carrera S in auto mode most of the time, but overriding it all the time .

In the RS, auto mode feel just too strange and inappropriate . I tried, but could not last more then a few minutes .

So, I basically always drive the RS in manual . 

 997.2 C2 ,  -20mm  I 964 Carrera 4 I 991 GT3 RS 

The factory guys drives the RS on auto most of the time, same with the 918. They only switch to manual shifting when it was wet, so they can go around 1 gear higher than normal to keep the car in check.

I think the measurable merits of PDK are very clear . Today the best performances are delivered with PDK or similar. I personally find very much engaging driving the PDK GT3  but I also enjoy driving a manual 911 whether modern or vintage. However I don`t try to convince anyone that likes  a manual that the PDK is the absolute better option (or the other way around). Let`s give credit to Porsche for offering this choice. 

m4ever:

...I don`t try to convince anyone that likes  a manual that the PDK is the absolute better option (or the other way around). Let`s give credit to Porsche for offering this choice. 

+1 

Well put! 

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM