Crown

Wonder if that VW engineer who decides to hide his findings have Greek blood running in him, what he did was so.....Greek like.

Agent Provocateur:

Once again, this is a disgraceful and deceitful act that has been committed by this company which will result in a negative image of all things German.

It has tarnished the reputation of the "Made in Germany" label.

People here are already creating jokes about the Germans and VW.

RC, I wonder if the Greeks with diesel VWs will be filing lawsuits against the Germans. 

that is one hell of leap .. may be in Greece, where leaps are often imaginary

sfo:

Agent Provocateur:

Once again, this is a disgraceful and deceitful act that has been committed by this company which will result in a negative image of all things German.

It has tarnished the reputation of the "Made in Germany" label.

People here are already creating jokes about the Germans and VW.

RC, I wonder if the Greeks with diesel VWs will be filing lawsuits against the Germans. 

that is one hell of leap .. may be in Greece, where leaps are often imaginary

Ignore the cretin sfo - his sole intent is to wind people up and not add anything worthwhile to any of the discussions here. Don't feed the troll.

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Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

nberry:

You all are missing the big picture. VW cheated on an issue that affects millions of people who do not own VW's. The toxicity level from the cheat increased 40 times above normal. That is a fact no one to my knowledge disputes. 

True. However, what would you say to this cartoon using your argument (which I agree with):

Translation: German polluter... Many Germans are furious that EPA is taking such a hard approach towards VW, while many US cars are actually much worse (not necessarily when it comes to NOx output but regarding fuel consumption and CO2).

EU gets a quick fix because their standards are not as stringent as US requirements. US VW owners now must continue to drive excessively polluting cars which all US citizens must suffer through.

Actually, our standards are at the level of California EPA standards but with the exception in the consumption declaration (US cars consume in real life what manufacturers actually claim but in Europe, there is no such thing, the consumption numbers from manufacturers are not accurate).

The EPA fine for each cheat car can be up to $37,500. If I am not mistaken, VW builds cars in the US and if true that would go a long way in reducing the amount of the fines they must pay the EPA. 

Why doesn't the EPA give VW the opportunity to choose between a fine and completely replacing the car of the customer or actually giving the customer the money? Would make more sense to me and it would also avoid the impression that the EPA wants to "cash in" on this.

If the fix results in lost performance, it is not a given that legally VW would be required to take the cars back. But for PR reasons VW may opt to do so.

I think VW would be well advised not to play hardball when it comes to customers requesting their money back (returning their cars). It would be a PR disaster if VW doesn't offer the best customer options possible.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Agent Provocateur:

Once again, this is a disgraceful and deceitful act that has been committed by this company which will result in a negative image of all things German.

It has tarnished the reputation of the "Made in Germany" label.

People here are already creating jokes about the Germans and VW.

RC, I wonder if the Greeks with diesel VWs will be filing lawsuits against the Germans. 

The same Greeks who took bribes from German companies? 

What is more disgusting? To accept a bribe or to give a bribe? I know my answer.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

reginos:

Does anyone think that  VW-Audi and others will fail because of this serious situation? This affair is gathering mass like a snowball and no one can foresee the gravity of its consequences.

Will the fines, compensations, costs of repairs and decrease in sales cripple the companies financially to a dangerous extent?

Will VW-Audi be forced to go out of business eventually under the burden of this fraud?

Will the German government need to step in for a bail-out to save jobs and the national industrial prestige? How popular this scenario would be in Germany with federal elections in 2 years?

The 6 or 7 billion EUR earmarked by the VW Group for dealing with this crisis are definitely very inadequate.

You are naming all of what I see coming, too!

1. It will harm tremendously. I'm sure VW will sell some of its brand - may it be Bentley to Tata, Lamborghini to .... I dont know, or Ducati to Fiat. We will see those things coming. I guess the cornerstone of a German Car Holding will stay, VW, Audi, Porsche - everything around is on question.
2. The Government will step in in any kind of way. If it is because paying unemployment money to those loosing their jobs, or is it State Niedersachsen which owns part of VW and automatically sits in the same shoes
3. 6 to 7 Billion seem to be just enough for the recalls. The effect will be much bigger. I read that VW has around 30 Billion cash/quickly movable tangible assets. I also read those might not be enough.

What happens here is tremendous and reminds me to Enron/Anderson some years ago. No one ever foreseen that Enron would be vanished just by one fault report of an external Auditor. Matter in fact Anderson was vanished too because of one single guy! Lets see where this is going to be but this is will have major impacts

50 Billion has been estimated.

RC:

Agent Provocateur:

Once again, this is a disgraceful and deceitful act that has been committed by this company which will result in a negative image of all things German.

It has tarnished the reputation of the "Made in Germany" label.

People here are already creating jokes about the Germans and VW.

RC, I wonder if the Greeks with diesel VWs will be filing lawsuits against the Germans. 

The same Greeks who took bribes from German companies? 

What is more disgusting? To accept a bribe or to give a bribe? I know my answer.

I suppose the Germans can always offer a bribe to get out of this mess they have got themselves in.

It's  not the first time they have tried this. 

--

2003 Cayenne Turbo

Agent Provocateur:

RC:

Agent Provocateur:

Once again, this is a disgraceful and deceitful act that has been committed by this company which will result in a negative image of all things German.

It has tarnished the reputation of the "Made in Germany" label.

People here are already creating jokes about the Germans and VW.

RC, I wonder if the Greeks with diesel VWs will be filing lawsuits against the Germans. 

The same Greeks who took bribes from German companies? 

What is more disgusting? To accept a bribe or to give a bribe? I know my answer.

I suppose the Germans can always offer a bribe to get out of this mess they have got themselves in.

It's  not the first time they have tried this. 

at least it's not the Greeks demanding the bribes ,. or are they?

sfo:

Agent Provocateur:

RC:

Agent Provocateur:

Once again, this is a disgraceful and deceitful act that has been committed by this company which will result in a negative image of all things German.

It has tarnished the reputation of the "Made in Germany" label.

People here are already creating jokes about the Germans and VW.

RC, I wonder if the Greeks with diesel VWs will be filing lawsuits against the Germans. 

The same Greeks who took bribes from German companies? 

What is more disgusting? To accept a bribe or to give a bribe? I know my answer.

I suppose the Germans can always offer a bribe to get out of this mess they have got themselves in.

It's  not the first time they have tried this. 

at least it's not the Greeks demanding the bribes ,. or are they?

You never know what to expect from them... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Australian Trade Commission has advised that the maximum penalty per individual breach (each car) of the Australian Consumer Law stands at $1.1 million – meaning Volkswagen Australia could run into billions of dollars in fines if it is found guilty. 

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2003 Cayenne Turbo

Agent Provocateur:

Australian Trade Commission has advised that the maximum penalty per individual breach (each car) of the Australian Consumer Law stands at $1.1 million – meaning Volkswagen Australia could run into billions of dollars in fines if it is found guilty. 

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2003 Cayenne Turbo

 

Like I said before, buying VW stock right now is only for the real pros and those who aren't faint-hearted. 

I honestly think that we haven't seen the worst yet and once VW has all the facts (and numbers), the stock value will drop much further. Unfortunately they seem to drag Porsche with them, I just hope that this won't affect Porsche financially along the way and of course the development/production of new products. I am very pessimistic right now.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

On the contrary I believe all the technical and commercial effort will be focused on Porsche. They are totally unaffected by the engine fiasco and very few people relate Porsche to VW technically. No rub-off at all. Porsche might be the only profitable brand with the VW portfolio in the years to come.

And in the unlikely event that Porsche are hit financially themselves, there are many others who would like to take them over in and out of Germany.

--

"Form follows function"

reginos:

On the contrary I believe all the technical and commercial effort will be focused on Porsche. They are totally unaffected by the engine fiasco and very few people relate Porsche to VW technically. No rub-off at all. Porsche might be the only profitable brand with the VW portfolio in the years to come.

And in the unlikely event that Porsche are hit financially themselves, there are many others who would like to take them over in and out of Germany.

I'm afraid this isn't that simple. Things are complicated, including the synergy from VW Group production and suppliers.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

reginos:

On the contrary I believe all the technical and commercial effort will be focused on Porsche. They are totally unaffected by the engine fiasco and very few people relate Porsche to VW technically. No rub-off at all. Porsche might be the only profitable brand with the VW portfolio in the years to come.

And in the unlikely event that Porsche are hit financially themselves, there are many others who would like to take them over in and out of Germany.

I'm afraid this isn't that simple. Things are complicated, including the synergy from VW Group production and suppliers.

Are there any estimates in the German financial press about the long term effects on the VW Group. Not just the share price but the actual viability/survival of the business as such? What do analysts say?

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"Form follows function"

A smidgen of good news I suppose:https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autobild.de%2Fartikel%2Fwinterkorn-anfangsverdacht-wird-geprueft-6275485.html%3Futm_source%3Ddlvr.it%26utm_medium%3Dtwitter&edit-text=

Interesting a test the BBC undertook last week, they fitted full emission test equipment to a 2014 EU5 VW Passat 2.0TDI that has the cheat software installed and a 2015 EU6 Ford Focus TDI. Both cars were driven in real world driving conditions including town and open roads. The VW produced 4X the official test NOX and the Ford 5X the official test (albeit EU6 has a much lower NOX limit). 

Perhaps VW are not so much worse than rival manufacturers after all. But the results prove that the sooner the artificial tests are replaced by real world tests the better!

Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

I don't think the others are any better too. If BMW for example produce the same output from their 2.0 diesel I don't think they have the magic way to reduce their NOx or that they add more emission-reducing equipment to their engines so as to make their product less profitable. If anything VW was the one who could afford do that due to their larger economies of scale.

Besides the Americans tested two VW 2.0 litres and one BMW X5 3.0 litre. They didn't bother to test other small diesels where the problem is supposed to be.

In retrospect the whole affair smells political-industrial to me. VW Group has been rising in stature globally and some perhaps didn't like that to continue unabated, among the prime suspects being the American giants Ford and GM. Anyway, it's up to the Germans to defend their industry and their jobs from this new type of trade war.

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"Form follows function"

reginos:

I don't think the others are any better too. If BMW for example produce the same output from their 2.0 diesel I don't think they have the magic way to reduce their NOx or that they add more emission-reducing equipment to their engines so as to make their product less profitable. If anything VW was the one who could afford do that due to their larger economies of scale.

Besides the Americans tested two VW 2.0 litres and one BMW X5 3.0 litre. They didn't bother to test other small diesels where the problem is supposed to be.

In retrospect the whole affair smells political-industrial to me. VW Group has been rising in stature globally and some perhaps didn't like that to continue unabated, among the prime suspects being the American giants Ford and GM. Anyway, it's up to the Germans to defend their industry and their jobs from this new type of trade war.

The whole affair is an accident, an outgrowth of the work done by an independent European organization.

JOHN GERMAN, International Council on Clean Transportation: Well, we were actually just going routine testing.

This is an outgrowth of our work in Europe. And it’s been known in Europe for five to 10 years that diesel cars have high in-use NOx emissions.

ICCT has been working with some other groups to — on this. We have done some testing there. And our director of our European office, Peter Mock, had the bright idea that we should test some vehicles in the U.S. And our thought was, because the U.S. has the most stringent emissions standards in the world, and because EPA and CARB have a lot of legal authority and experience and do effective enforcement, that the diesel cars in the U.S. would be clean, and that we would take this data back to Europe and say, hey, they can do it in the U.S., how come you can’t do it in Europe?

So, we were as surprised as anybody when we got the results.

--  http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/volkswagen-got-caught-cheating/

This is what I suspected to be the case: Engine Shortfall Pushed Volkswagen to Evade Emissions Testing

But not just cars surely? What about trucks, buses, vans, ambulances, fire engines........ Cars are a comparatively small percentage of diesel emissions from road vehicles, add to that generators, plant equipment, railway locomotives, almost everything we import and export is transported by  ships which are all powered by Diesel engines, 

The tree huggers can criticise diesel as much as they like but it is the lifeblood of every nation on the planet.

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Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

Actually ships are powered by a even dirtier fuel, bunker oil :)

Whoopsy:

Actually ships are powered by a even dirtier fuel, bunker oil :)

Some are, some are not. Large deep sea ships such as container ships are indeed fuelled by heavy fuel oil (not quite as low a fraction as old fashioned bunker oil), however an increasing number of 'near trade" ships are fuelled by diesel these days to meet emission requirements, this may be a cheaper option than the exhaust gas "scrubbers" to remove excess NOX from the exhaust gasses, dependent on the ship type and service.

Warships on the other hand are almost all fuelled by diesel, many are powered by marinised gas turbines which cannot run on heavy fuel oil.

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Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

All this is true, but:

a) NOx is a major component of smog formation in urban areas where it represents a significant human health issue. Ships are not generally operating much in urban areas.

b) VW broke existing laws that cover engines in cars. So, what ships do is irrelevant in the context of that specific law. (Even if it were relevant to a wider discussion of policy.)

apias:

All this is true, but:

a) NOx is a major component of smog formation in urban areas where it represents a significant human health issue. Ships are not generally operating much in urban areas.

b) VW broke existing laws that cover engines in cars. So, what ships do is irrelevant in the context of that specific law. (Even if it were relevant to a wider discussion of policy.)

You are not entirely correct apias. Ships do operate in urban areas as many ports are located near to or in towns and cities. Whilst in port ships do continue to operate engines to provide light and power to function when moored but also use their main engines when entering or leaving harbours. On part load this is where diesels are most inefficient and emit most pollution. The two cities where I live in work both have major ports right in the city, one the second largest container terminal in the country and in addition cruise ships and car transporters. The other city is home to the UK's premier Naval base and next to it a busy commercial port. Both cities are concerned regarding the pollution to the urban atmosphere. As the legislation that VW has fallen foul of is environmental it is relevant. It is ridiculous that the authourities and tree huggers are singling out automobiles as the only baddies. Maybe as Reginos alluded earlier in this thread there is also political motivation for the US to single out Ford and GM's biggest competitor.

My previous reply is also relevant to the discussion, unless where you live there are no trucks, buses, vans or locomotives. If diesel emissions are to be brought under control then all those machines using it also need to be controlled. Diesel is not going to go away for generations yet.

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Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

To turn your own argument against you, ships are a comparatively small percentage of emissions in urban areas.

However, your arguments are still ignoring the fact that all those things are outside the context of VW's immediate problem here.

apias:

To turn your own argument against you, ships are a comparatively small percentage of emissions in urban areas.

However, your arguments are still ignoring the fact that all those things are outside the context of VW's immediate problem here.

We will have to agree to disagree on these isues then, won't we - particularly as ships were only one example of additional urban pollution that I used.  You have chosen to ignore the rest.

The undeniable relevant point that I did make was the suspicion that it was convenient that the US authorities have chose to hit their indigenous manufacturers main rivals. Is it definite that Ford and GM also did not have cheat soiftware installed? Is there blame also to be laid with both US and EU authorities use a test which is completely irrelevant to real world car use?

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Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

Well, it's not like the EPA has been ignoring manufacturers of non-car diesel engines: http://www.justice.gov/archive/opa/pr/1998/October/499_enr.htm

This is actually one of the things that makes the VW violations all the more inexplicable, since it's not like this hasn't been a problem for anyone before this.

apias:

This is actually one of the things that makes the VW violations all the more inexplicable, since it's not like this hasn't been a problem for anyone before this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/05/business/engine-shortfall-pushed-volkswagen-to-evade-emissions-testing.html?_r=0

"Form follows function"

dreamcar:

apias:

All this is true, but:

a) NOx is a major component of smog formation in urban areas where it represents a significant human health issue. Ships are not generally operating much in urban areas.

b) VW broke existing laws that cover engines in cars. So, what ships do is irrelevant in the context of that specific law. (Even if it were relevant to a wider discussion of policy.)

You are not entirely correct apias. Ships do operate in urban areas as many ports are located near to or in towns and cities. Whilst in port ships do continue to operate engines to provide light and power to function when moored but also use their main engines when entering or leaving harbours. On part load this is where diesels are most inefficient and emit most pollution. The two cities where I live in work both have major ports right in the city, one the second largest container terminal in the country and in addition cruise ships and car transporters. The other city is home to the UK's premier Naval base and next to it a busy commercial port. Both cities are concerned regarding the pollution to the urban atmosphere. As the legislation that VW has fallen foul of is environmental it is relevant. It is ridiculous that the authourities and tree huggers are singling out automobiles as the only baddies. Maybe as Reginos alluded earlier in this thread there is also political motivation for the US to single out Ford and GM's biggest competitor.

My previous reply is also relevant to the discussion, unless where you live there are no trucks, buses, vans or locomotives. If diesel emissions are to be brought under control then all those machines using it also need to be controlled. Diesel is not going to go away for generations yet.

 

 

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Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

 

I would I think Ford and GMs biggest competitor would be Toyota and the other asian brands. The VW brand is not that big in the usa and the other VW owned brands are all luxury high end which the Americans don't really compete against.