Crown

olli:

I agree wholeheartedly with Rulesdontapply and his views on the utterly unacceptable stance taken by Arab countries in the Gulf region! 

The US and the EU should organize a joint mission to the rulers of the region and put a ton of pressure on them (to put it mildly...) to start pulling their weight in this crisis, which they have contributed to greatly themselves by fostering extremist groups inside Syria.

It is all part, of course, of the great regonal rivalry with Iran, and the battlegrounds are Syria, Iraq and Yemen. It is about time that the leading powers put an end to this.  

The Syrian issue should have been handled by Europeans. Its their backyard. Looking at the low native birth rates in the EU, the soul numbing addiction to the social welfare state model, the reluctance to meet nato spending levels,  lack of  national political will and force size to engage in large scale foreign military adventures,  and the easy out to just let the americans do stuff for them and blame them if it goes wrong, all creates a sad future for the EU.

180,000 brit, german, french troops could have crushed assad and isis and brought order to Syria. Instead you have seen Obama do minimal air strikes and now its up to Putin and Iran to fix syria before it becomes a mega version of the failed state of libya.  If Putin is successful, the political impact will be immense and change a lot of things.

Its no secret that arab armies are corrupt and ineffective and that their governments play and pay all sides, and that iranian forces arent much better, faced with a enemy like isis that doesnt mind dying  makes things even trickier. I guess  im saying that if europe doesnt want millions more refugees and growing russian influence that it better wake up and act. 

JimFlat6:

olli:

I agree wholeheartedly with Rulesdontapply and his views on the utterly unacceptable stance taken by Arab countries in the Gulf region! 

The US and the EU should organize a joint mission to the rulers of the region and put a ton of pressure on them (to put it mildly...) to start pulling their weight in this crisis, which they have contributed to greatly themselves by fostering extremist groups inside Syria.

It is all part, of course, of the great regonal rivalry with Iran, and the battlegrounds are Syria, Iraq and Yemen. It is about time that the leading powers put an end to this.  

The Syrian issue should have been handled by Europeans. Its their backyard. Looking at the low native birth rates in the EU, the soul numbing addiction to the social welfare state model, the reluctance to meet nato spending levels,  lack of  national political will and force size to engage in large scale foreign military adventures,  and the easy out to just let the americans do stuff for them and blame them if it goes wrong, all creates a sad future for the EU.

After the US messed things up in Iraq and left way too early? 

180,000 brit, german, french troops could have crushed assad and isis and brought order to Syria. Instead you have seen Obama do minimal air strikes and now its up to Putin and Iran to fix syria before it becomes a mega version of the failed state of libya.  If Putin is successful, the political impact will be immense and change a lot of things.

Germany has a very strange relationship to it's army and this is mainly because of WWII and the imposed restrictions after WWII. Asking for German troops to be sent into a battle zone in Syria/Iraq clearly proves that you don't really understand the current political situation in Germany. The German population is very much against anything related to war and most of the population blames the US for the current geopolitical situation. Actually most Europeans I know do the same. There is a very strong anti-US vibe in the EU and it grows stronger. It is related to the NSA affair, the situation in Iraq/Syria/Afghanistan but it is also related to the fact that many Europeans are afraid of war with Russia and they get the feeling that the US supports Ukraine no matter what, trying to involve the Europeans as much as possible. The Russia sanctions are not welcomed by a majority here, one reason why the sanctions are limited. Also, the Russian "troll factory" (Putin's special propaganda "troop") does a great job to influence the media in Europe, especially in Germany. The US unfortunately complete ignores this and doesn't do anything to improve their reputation. On the contrary, with TTIP and now the VW scandal, the US has never been that unpopular in Germany, believe it or not. 

Actually, it is so bad that I just found out that many people we know are actually hiding that they are traveling to the US, just so people do not judge them. Unbelievable. Just yesterday, my wife went to a fashion show where she met the daughter of the wealthiest business man in our town. She is a neighbor but we barely are in contact. When my wife told her that we spent almost three weeks in the US, that woman told her that she and her family did the same but my wife shouldn't tell anyone. When my wife asked her why, she (that woman) told her that people are very anti-US right now and she doesn't want to be judged or to explain herself. My wife was pretty shocked because she openly tells everyone, including her patients, where she was. We heard the same from other people we know and the friends who come with us to the US this autumn also asked us not to tell anyone where they are traveling to.  This is just insane but it clearly shows the current atmosphere here. Obama never really understood how to deal with the allies in Europe but whoever advised him, should be fired. He had some very very bad advisors.

The whole anti-US sentiment in Europe and especially in Germany will have serious consequences for future relationships between the US and Europe/Germany. Why? The next generation of politicians and business men will not be as US friendly as the current one, making it more difficult in every domain. Also, many young(er) people are trying to promote a closer relationship to Russia, especially considering the fact that many Russian immigrants are living in Germany and these people are really not very US-friendly, despite the fact that they came to Germany and live here.

The US clearly needs some sort of propaganda task force before it is too late.

Its no secret that arab armies are corrupt and ineffective and that their governments play and pay all sides, and that iranian forces arent much better, faced with a enemy like isis that doesnt mind dying  makes things even trickier. I guess  im saying that if europe doesnt want millions more refugees and growing russian influence that it better wake up and act. 

Russia is just helping out Assad because Putin and his men realized that the Western coalition forces aren't getting anywhere fighting ISIS and the pressure on Assad was just too high. If the Americans were more determined to fight ISIS, Russia wouldn't have gotten involved. Actually, I kind of get the feeling that Putin and Obama have a secret deal here, something we may read about in 50 years or so. 

The US made some vital mistakes in Iraq and Afghanistan, one of them being not bringing enough troops inside these countries to eliminate threats from the start. Also, the situation of the ordinary people didn't improve fast enough, which lowered support for the "invaders" in the population. Last but not least, there was always some sort of arrogance and if I learned one thing about Arab or Pashtun mentality, it is pride and honor.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

As for Euro ground troops , trust me i understand the politics of why it won't happen, I was commenting more on the ideal, not the currently doable.  EU leaders talk a lot of mushy platitudes about "solving"  the Syrian civil war politically but they only offer words with zero force to back it up. And like Bush in Iraq, they don't even offer even the hint of a post Assad plan to provide security for that country to stabilize. Useless. No vision, just empty words. Europe has to change, they can't be a economic power and be toothless when it comes to their own perimeter security. 

Assad has few choices. He can't exactly quit and retire to Switzerland. So for him it's stay, die or flee to Moscow. International law is so tight now that despots have few choices anymore.

Maybe they should rethink the St Helena Airport project, it's not too late to bulldoze it. It's proved an effective location to exile former despots to in the past, but having an airport sort of makes it less ideal for that. They could be put to work tending the coffee trees.

The Hague has a long reach. Maybe Helena Montana would be better.

Too easy to come and go and communicate with the outside world.

I was thinking they could make the island into a sort of sanctuary for retired evil guys. As long as they stay there no one bothers them; no visitors, mail, phone calls or Internet access allowed. Sort of gives them another option besides hanging on to power or dying. It's an island, so, with only access by infrequent boat (keep the RMS Saint Helena running) it makes it easier to monitor comings and goings. They could have a little club that meets on Thursdays and try their hands at various art projects.

Well, Tristan da Cunha could be an alternative, although, there's less for them to do there, unless they are into birds.

Back on Bugatti, I just cant imagine VW selling Bugatti. New Vision GT is absolutely amazing 

My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com

WTF does this thread have to do with Bugatti?

noone1:

WTF does this thread have to do with Bugatti?

I hope you are not serious. If you are, damn mate, what kind of drugs you are using 

--

My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

RC:

Actually, it is so bad that I just found out that many people we know are actually hiding that they are traveling to the US, just so people do not judge them. Unbelievable. Just yesterday, my wife went to a fashion show where she met the daughter of the wealthiest business man in our town. She is a neighbor but we barely are in contact. When my wife told her that we spent almost three weeks in the US, that woman told her that she and her family did the same but my wife shouldn't tell anyone. When my wife asked her why, she (that woman) told her that people are very anti-US right now and she doesn't want to be judged or to explain herself. My wife was pretty shocked because she openly tells everyone, including her patients, where she was. We heard the same from other people we know and the friends who come with us to the US this autumn also asked us not to tell anyone where they are traveling to.  This is just insane but it clearly shows the current atmosphere here. Obama never really understood how to deal with the allies in Europe but whoever advised him, should be fired. He had some very very bad advisors.

I am always very surprised at these kind of comments and they must be kept to Germany , or your region and not the entire Europe .  Germany must be very different from Switzerland in that aspect, as here there is no animosity again the US, expect from  the odd conspiracy theorists  and the usual critics that would go to any dominating country or person .

According to a travel site , the favorite destination to travel by plane for the Swiss  during this fall holiday is ........ New York , then London, then Berlin .  Los Angeles being 6 th and Las Vegas 7 th .   

 997.2 C2 ,  -20mm  I 964 Carrera 4 I 991 GT3 RS 

RC:

 

The US clearly needs some sort of propaganda task force before it is too late.

They should stop thinking about propaganda and start DOING more things to get some things in order. I have feeling that Germans are very direct people, in a manner that they will respect you if you make right actions. If you just talk, talk, talk (propaganda) they will start ignoring you at some point. Real question is, can Germany ignore USA 

My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com

Gnil:

RC:

Actually, it is so bad that I just found out that many people we know are actually hiding that they are traveling to the US, just so people do not judge them. Unbelievable. Just yesterday, my wife went to a fashion show where she met the daughter of the wealthiest business man in our town. She is a neighbor but we barely are in contact. When my wife told her that we spent almost three weeks in the US, that woman told her that she and her family did the same but my wife shouldn't tell anyone. When my wife asked her why, she (that woman) told her that people are very anti-US right now and she doesn't want to be judged or to explain herself. My wife was pretty shocked because she openly tells everyone, including her patients, where she was. We heard the same from other people we know and the friends who come with us to the US this autumn also asked us not to tell anyone where they are traveling to.  This is just insane but it clearly shows the current atmosphere here. Obama never really understood how to deal with the allies in Europe but whoever advised him, should be fired. He had some very very bad advisors.

 

I am always very surprised at these kind of comments and they must be kept to Germany , or your region and not the entire Europe .  Germany must be very different from Switzerland in that aspect, as here there is no animosity again the US, expect from  the odd conspiracy theorists  and the usual critics that would go to any dominating country or person .

According to a travel site , the favorite destination to travel by plane for the Swiss  during this fall holiday is ........ New York , then London, then Berlin .  Los Angeles being 6 th and Las Vegas 7 th .   

Well, maybe the Swiss are more attached to the West than Germans but the German reunification certainly brought some new problems to Germany. It is no secret that many in East Germany are not too fond of the Americans, the anti-US propaganda in the GDR during the cold war shows it's effects, also there were Russian troops for decades in the GDR and some East Germans have fond memories of friendships and whatever, we call it "Ostalgie" (Eastern nostalgia). With the NSA affair, the anti-US sentiment started to grow, especially since many in Eastern Germany do not understand the special relationship Germany and the US had after WWII and during the cold war, so they interpret the close relationship for some sort of slavery or dependence, which is of course only right wing propaganda of some Nazi groups in Germany.

Switzerland never had a reunification, it never was partially a part of the Eastern political and military block, it also doesn't have Millions of immigrants from Russia and former USSR countries, who may have immigrated to Germany but are still very very attached, emotionally and politically, to their former homes.

Many Germans still love the USA and what it stands for but the mood has changed and people are more cautious when expressing their sympathy for the US, as sad as this may be. Many young people over here don't have a clue about the cold war and are actually starting to see the USA as some sort of world aggressor and Assange/Snowden suppressors. The US should certainly work on their image abroad, especially among young(er) Europeans.

During the cold war, we had 20000 US troops stationed in my home town and we loved it. People were getting along pretty well, US soldiers everywhere, PX stores (loved them), cars had US military plates, American school and so on, I have very fond memories and most people here were very sad when the US troops left. Young(er) people don't remember that anymore. Germany was officially "occupied" before the reunification but it certainly didn't feel that way. The Americans here were living like guests, not occupiers, which resulted in a very good relationship with the population.
 

Regarding travel destinations, the US is actually pretty high on top of the list for Germans but they mainly visit the typical hot spots like New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco and/or the National Parks. Germans still have a lot of prejudice when it comes to the US, I got reminded of that whenever I was doing a tour with German tourists together. Germans still seem to believe that there is only junk food in the US, that Americans don't have a clue about culture and art and that they are very retrogressive when it comes to technology (funny, I always had that impression in Germany), sex (apparently they don't have a clue about the US sex industry) and human rights. Actually, I was sometimes quite surprised what BS some German tourists would say during the tour, mainly expressed in stupid questions, questions the tour guide didn't even really understand most of the time. Like "how much green and beautiful nature there is in a country with so many SUVs" and stuff light that.   The SUV, the ordinary German's biggest enemy. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

Gnil:

RC:

Actually, it is so bad that I just found out that many people we know are actually hiding that they are traveling to the US, just so people do not judge them. Unbelievable. Just yesterday, my wife went to a fashion show where she met the daughter of the wealthiest business man in our town. She is a neighbor but we barely are in contact. When my wife told her that we spent almost three weeks in the US, that woman told her that she and her family did the same but my wife shouldn't tell anyone. When my wife asked her why, she (that woman) told her that people are very anti-US right now and she doesn't want to be judged or to explain herself. My wife was pretty shocked because she openly tells everyone, including her patients, where she was. We heard the same from other people we know and the friends who come with us to the US this autumn also asked us not to tell anyone where they are traveling to.  This is just insane but it clearly shows the current atmosphere here. Obama never really understood how to deal with the allies in Europe but whoever advised him, should be fired. He had some very very bad advisors.

Really strange. Complete different situation in 861xx than in 8xxxx?

There were always people who didn’t like the US (politics?). I still remember the badges “Sonne statt Reagan” which were worn by several of my classmates. We even had terrorists who killed US soldiers. But in the end everybody who can afford it likes to travel to the US. Do you know many people who ever visited Russia?

Today people who are “contra” are much louder than the people who are “pro”. But yes, US politics did some really bad mistakes managing the friendship with Germany/Europe

Thats the problem, people who sympathize with the US are much less "noisy" than those who oppose it.

Also, Munich is a little bit bigger and you have less Russians. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Milanno:

Back on Bugatti, I just cant imagine VW selling Bugatti. New Vision GT is absolutely amazing 

Yes,

if it´s okay for the others I would return to the original topic as well... 

There would only be a limited amount of possibilities should Volkswagen decide to sell the brand. I find that to be rather unlikely. The development is embedded within the Volkswagen group, the new car is ready and the company finally able to cash in on the next-gem development. I also don´t think many other manufacturers would be willing to buy the company, considering the fact that the brand has always been carried in the slipstream of the mother company. Which other manufacturer would be willing to pay the money for a brand that has basically been created from scratch 1,5 decades ago.

Ferdie:

Milanno:

Back on Bugatti, I just cant imagine VW selling Bugatti. New Vision GT is absolutely amazing 

Yes,

if it´s okay for the others I would return to the original topic as well... 

There would only be a limited amount of possibilities should Volkswagen decide to sell the brand. I find that to be rather unlikely. The development is embedded within the Volkswagen group, the new car is ready and the company finally able to cash in on the next-gem development. I also don´t think many other manufacturers would be willing to buy the company, considering the fact that the brand has always been carried in the slipstream of the mother company. Which other manufacturer would be willing to pay the money for a brand that has basically been created from scratch 1,5 decades ago.

I think you are forgetting Ettore Bugatti and Romano Artioli and their respective eras.  

I've often thought that Artioli might have produced some really interesting cars at saleable prices if he had been able to stick with it longer. 

fritz

fritz:

Ferdie:

[...] I also don´t think many other manufacturers would be willing to buy the company, considering the fact that the brand has always been carried in the slipstream of the mother company. Which other manufacturer would be willing to pay the money for a brand that has basically been created from scratch 1,5 decades ago.

I think you are forgetting Ettore Bugatti and Romano Artioli and their respective eras.  

I've often thought that Artioli might have produced some really interesting cars at saleable prices if he had been able to stick with it longer. 

Of course not... what I was referring to was the resurrection of Bugatti by Volkswagen at request of Piech. Apart from the estate in Molsheim, all other infrastructure has been established from scratch. The same was the case when Artioli bought the name rights and started the EB110 project. The difference is that Bugatti development is embedded inside the Volkswagen group so purchasing the brand would also result in significant development and management restructuring.

That would be different with e.g. Ferrari or Lamborghini that still seem to have a significant amount of development at their original and historical headquarter.

Ferdie:

fritz:

Ferdie:

[...] I also don´t think many other manufacturers would be willing to buy the company, considering the fact that the brand has always been carried in the slipstream of the mother company. Which other manufacturer would be willing to pay the money for a brand that has basically been created from scratch 1,5 decades ago.

I think you are forgetting Ettore Bugatti and Romano Artioli and their respective eras.  

I've often thought that Artioli might have produced some really interesting cars at saleable prices if he had been able to stick with it longer. 

Of course not... what I was referring to was the resurrection of Bugatti by Volkswagen at request of Piech. Apart from the estate in Molsheim, all other infrastructure has been established from scratch. The same was the case when Artioli bought the name rights and started the EB110 project. The difference is that Bugatti development is embedded inside the Volkswagen group so purchasing the brand would also result in significant development and management restructuring.

That would be different with e.g. Ferrari or Lamborghini that still seem to have a significant amount of development at their original and historical headquarter.

I knew what you meant.    I just think that Artioli was on a better path in terms of market viability with the EB110 and the stillborn EB112 than VW is with the Veyron, which is effectively just a very, very expensive monument to someone's ego. 

I assume that Artioli just didn't have the stamina  -  financially and physically  -   to keep both Bugatti and Lotus afloat, despite having made a good start with both companies. 

PS:  Good to see you back here. 
--

fritz

Ferdie:

 

The development is embedded within the Volkswagen group, the new car is ready and the company finally able to cash in on the next-gem development.

If the new car follows in the footsteps of the Veyron (which by being grander, faster, and better it should) then the company won't cash in on it at all. Veyrons were produced at a loss for VW purely as a status symbol and a halo performance article within their overall corporate umbrella. The fact that they can use any development and R&D done for the Bugatti brand to enhance the performance of their other brands by tricking down the technology might soften that blow, but still there's a loss there that IMO not many other brands would be willing to take over. 

Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

Yep. 

Enmanuel:

Ferdie:

 

The development is embedded within the Volkswagen group, the new car is ready and the company finally able to cash in on the next-gem development.

If the new car follows in the footsteps of the Veyron (which by being grander, faster, and better it should) then the company won't cash in on it at all. Veyrons were produced at a loss for VW purely as a status symbol and a halo performance article within their overall corporate umbrella. The fact that they can use any development and R&D done for the Bugatti brand to enhance the performance of their other brands by tricking down the technology might soften that blow, but still there's a loss there that IMO not many other brands would be willing to take over. 

VW had to establish everything from scratch back then, be it employees, infrastructure, facilities as well as the car itself. This is different now. Who knows how much has been carried over from the Veyron.

The new car looks much more elegant, it might attract an additional set of buyers that weren't interested in the previous car at all.

fritz:

 

I knew what you meant.    I just think that Artioli was on a better path in terms of market viability with the EB110 and the stillborn EB112 than VW is with the Veyron, which is effectively just a very, very expensive monument to someone's ego. 

I assume that Artioli just didn't have the stamina  -  financially and physically  -   to keep both Bugatti and Lotus afloat, despite having made a good start with both companies. 

PS:  Good to see you back here. 

I guess Artioli didn't have to abide the same corporate culture and management structures as in Volkswagen. Pursuing his ideas, that might've been a good thing. Receiving sufficient funding, not so much.

I still keep wondering whether both these cars, the EB110 and Veyron, are truly in line with Ettore Bugatti's credo.

Thanks, haven't been away. Just little time to read and post. 

Ferdie:

Enmanuel:

Ferdie:

 

The development is embedded within the Volkswagen group, the new car is ready and the company finally able to cash in on the next-gem development.

If the new car follows in the footsteps of the Veyron (which by being grander, faster, and better it should) then the company won't cash in on it at all. Veyrons were produced at a loss for VW purely as a status symbol and a halo performance article within their overall corporate umbrella. The fact that they can use any development and R&D done for the Bugatti brand to enhance the performance of their other brands by tricking down the technology might soften that blow, but still there's a loss there that IMO not many other brands would be willing to take over. 

 

VW had to establish everything from scratch back then, be it employees, infrastructure, facilities as well as the car itself. This is different now. Who knows how much has been carried over from the Veyron.

The new car looks much more elegant, it might attract an additional set of buyers that weren't interested in the previous car at all.

True, some of the overall costs will be mitigated since it's not starting from scratch. Once the Veyron ends production most of the infrastructure will probably continue working for the next car.

Clientele on the other hand is still up for discussion when it comes to the Bugatti, I'll wager a very high percentage of the buyers were more interested in the "Faster, most expensive, most hp in the world" aspect of the car than what it actually was as a whole, including the looks of it. In the same way Bugatti was an investment in status for the VW group, most Veyrons were just a show piece for the uber rich, and never a product they actually felt passionate about as car enthusiasts. So as long as the new model retains the "Most ..." characteristics of the Veyron, it will keep selling to those more interested in status than reality.

Certainly true. Keep in mind though how many Veyron have been built. Now, consider, that there are people that bought more than one. I guess the number of actual customers is around three hundred.

When the Veyron appeared, the price was rather outrageous outside of the very low-volume supercar niche (Mercedes CLK GTR etc.). Nowadays, the McLaren P1 and La Ferrari are of a similiar price. Even the Porsche 918 is roughly twice the price of the Carrera GT when it comes to list prices. I predict Bugatti can sell the new model for two million each yet sell more units than of the Veyron.

Very true. I'm looking forward to see if they can pull it off. And if the car looks as good as it's hinting then it will bring a lot to the hypercard table. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BhkWFPvFUI

The best place for the car is in front of Grand Hotels in London, Paris or Monaco, but no driving pleasure on curvy roads. It's a technical engineering achievement for poser.....

Being polite is so rare these days that it's often confused with flirting.