Crown

4trac:

 

I thought about her question a bit, and said "because then it would be a Ferrari".  Which led me to the thought that there is no reason Porsche could not "do a Ferrari" - they have all the constituent parts.  And like Scifrog, I think there is a market for that.  

I agree, Porsche can for sure do it, but would you be willing to pay a Ferrari price for it?  A 991 GTS with GT3 running gear and GT3 engine. Porsche's pricing model would blow up. There is no space for such a car in the normal line up. Hence I can only see such model as a limited edition special with a huge premium attached. But would people use this as a daily driver? Probably not. Then why do people need the rear seats?

We all seem to understand different things with the "Carrera RS". Some people want a standard GT3 with rear seats and no wing, but still all the gizmos and PDK. For me the "Carrera RS" would be a stripped down 911 with zero gizmos, manual gearbox, GT3 suspension and maybe the GT3 engine. I would be perfectly fine with the normal 430hp Carrera engine which has more low-end torque than the GT3 engine and IMHO fits public road driving much better. Especially with a manual gearbox. A GT3 lite if you want. Or the 911's answer to the GT4.

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

bluelines:

 

For me the "Carrera RS" would be a stripped down 911 with zero gizmos, manual gearbox, GT3 suspension and maybe the GT3 engine. I would be perfectly fine with the normal 430hp Carrera engine which has more low-end torque than the GT3 engine and IMHO fits public road driving much better. Especially with a manual gearbox. A GT3 lite if you want. Or the 911's answer to the GT4.

 

 

I take one.

Being polite is so rare these days that it's often confused with flirting.

Hmmm, I guess this 991-"stripped down GT3" could actually fall very nicely in the same niche as the boxster spyder is, ie. a street car with (a lot of) track ambitions. Put it all black like nearly 90 % of all Porsche seem to be in my banking neighborhood and you would have the perfect wolf in a sheep's clothing...

Turbo:

bluelines:

 

For me the "Carrera RS" would be a stripped down 911 with zero gizmos, manual gearbox, GT3 suspension and maybe the GT3 engine. I would be perfectly fine with the normal 430hp Carrera engine which has more low-end torque than the GT3 engine and IMHO fits public road driving much better. Especially with a manual gearbox. A GT3 lite if you want. Or the 911's answer to the GT4.

 

 

I take one.

Not interested, sorry. Unless they sell this car for under the price of a base 991.2 Carrera. Then, it would actually make sense but I doubt that Porsche is going to make customers another gift a la GT4 or Boxster Spyder. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

Turbo:

bluelines:

 

For me the "Carrera RS" would be a stripped down 911 with zero gizmos, manual gearbox, GT3 suspension and maybe the GT3 engine. I would be perfectly fine with the normal 430hp Carrera engine which has more low-end torque than the GT3 engine and IMHO fits public road driving much better. Especially with a manual gearbox. A GT3 lite if you want. Or the 911's answer to the GT4.

I take one.

Not interested, sorry. Unless they sell this car for under the price of a base 991.2 Carrera. Then, it would actually make sense but I doubt that Porsche is going to make customers another gift a la GT4 or Boxster Spyder. 

That would be like selling the GT4 below the 981 S... nah.

IMHO it would only make sense if it is priced between the Carrera and the GT3. That is where it fits. That is where it will be priced if it is developed by the Motorsport department. I could however imagine that the Exclusive department instead runs their twist on it and sells it as a limited edition special closer the price of a Turbo S...

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

My C4 GTS Cab costs actually more than a well equipped GT3.  So I really don't see how a Carrera RS would fit between a Carrera S and a GT3, there isn't much room left. Unless of course Porsche makes this car really hardcore, with no rear seats, no dampening material, no A/C (optional), etc. etc. etc. 

As far as I heard, the Carrera RS (or whatever the name will be) is supposed to carry GT3 tech, whatever this means. I also heard that it will be limited and that it will cost over 200k. Of course rumors are rumors and a lot can change, especially now after the VW scandal but I guess we are going to know more next year.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

My C4 GTS Cab costs actually more than a well equipped GT3.  So I really don't see how a Carrera RS would fit between a Carrera S and a GT3, there isn't much room left. Unless of course Porsche makes this car really hardcore, with no rear seats, no dampening material, no A/C (optional), etc. etc. etc. 

That is exactly how they should make it!

The GTS cost that much because of all the options and "mandatory" extras. The difference in base price between a Carrera and GT3 is substantial, until you add all options and they suddenly cost the same

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

bluelines:

RC:

My C4 GTS Cab costs actually more than a well equipped GT3.  So I really don't see how a Carrera RS would fit between a Carrera S and a GT3, there isn't much room left. Unless of course Porsche makes this car really hardcore, with no rear seats, no dampening material, no A/C (optional), etc. etc. etc. 

That is exactly how they should make it!

The GTS cost that much because of all the options and "mandatory" extras. The difference in base price between a Carrera and GT3 is substantial, until you add all options and they suddenly cost the same

True but then how would they cash in on the options? 

Actually, if Porsche would really be obscene, they could offer a stripped down Carrera GTS for the price of a base GT3 RS.  

I agree, the Carrera GTS engine is really a fine piece of machinery. Now that I have 7000 km on my car, the engine is really revving free and it feels great. Not bad for a 3.8 l "run of the mill" 430 hp boxer engine in my opinion but of course this is an older engine design, improved over years and almost up to perfection. So it cannot be excluded that Porsche will use this engine one last time for a special model but I haven't heard anything about it yet  (which doesn't mean much, giving Porsche's secrecy with such projects).

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

4trac:

As my wife put it "why can't Porsche do a 911 with this amazing engine and transmission, most of this suspension, but in a package that is not a depressing black synthetic interior, and without such a track-focused front design that you need to worry about scraping it instead of having fun?"   

front axle lift and full leather interior with contrast stitching .. job done

sfo:

4trac:

As my wife put it "why can't Porsche do a 911 with this amazing engine and transmission, most of this suspension, but in a package that is not a depressing black synthetic interior, and without such a track-focused front design that you need to worry about scraping it instead of having fun?"   

front axle lift and full leather interior with contrast stitching .. job done

Actually, everyone I meet seems to love the GTS alcantara interior with red stitching. Could have bought a dealer inventory car at an interesting rebate with full leather (no alcantara) but leather gets boring soon.

Yes, front axle lift for 991.2 should do the trick.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

sfo:

4trac:

As my wife put it "why can't Porsche do a 911 with this amazing engine and transmission, most of this suspension, but in a package that is not a depressing black synthetic interior, and without such a track-focused front design that you need to worry about scraping it instead of having fun?"   

front axle lift and full leather interior with contrast stitching .. job done

The tester we drove did have the lifter - but you still need to constantly be aware of how big every dip is, or speed bump, or driveway merge - it does not get the "job done", it just means you need to be pushing the button all the time, at least in our uneven city area.   Agree on the full leather (assuming you did a factory order), but as I pointed out above, try finding one of those now.   Alcantara has become a "high end" finish - great cost saving for the manufacturers I would guess, but I guess I'm old school and love the feel and smell of fine leather.   As well, our winter beater is a ~$30,000 Subaru STi with the same alcantara interior as a $200,000 GT3 - so for us this material is not so special...     

2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S

bluelines:

4trac:

 

I thought about her question a bit, and said "because then it would be a Ferrari".  Which led me to the thought that there is no reason Porsche could not "do a Ferrari" - they have all the constituent parts.  And like Scifrog, I think there is a market for that.  

I agree, Porsche can for sure do it, but would you be willing to pay a Ferrari price for it?  A 991 GTS with GT3 running gear and GT3 engine. Porsche's pricing model would blow up. There is no space for such a car in the normal line up. Hence I can only see such model as a limited edition special with a huge premium attached. But would people use this as a daily driver? Probably not. Then why do people need the rear seats?

We all seem to understand different things with the "Carrera RS". Some people want a standard GT3 with rear seats and no wing, but still all the gizmos and PDK. For me the "Carrera RS" would be a stripped down 911 with zero gizmos, manual gearbox, GT3 suspension and maybe the GT3 engine. I would be perfectly fine with the normal 430hp Carrera engine which has more low-end torque than the GT3 engine and IMHO fits public road driving much better. Especially with a manual gearbox. A GT3 lite if you want. Or the 911's answer to the GT4.

Blueness, I totally agree on the RS concept, if only because these letters have historically meant more stripped down - Porsche can't really change that without creating confusion.  But our musings about a less stripped but still exciting, call it "GS" version of a car that utilized GT3 guts, were really a different concept from the RS entirely (as difficult as it is to imagine we need more variants of 911 ).  One could argue the TT has filled this "luxurious speed" niche, but as RC has concluded with his TT, the powertrain lacked excitement.  A variant of the GT engine and its PDK could solve this, with perhaps a bit of suspension tuning as well.  Since the TT already occupies the top of the 911 pricing niche, and there are buyers for it, it does not any more blow up the pricing hierarchy.  Maybe in a turbo-everything world, the top 911 goes back to being naturally aspirated??   

--

2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S

We already have the "stripped down" car and that's the GT3. I doubt that Porsche would be able or willing to make the car even more stripped out. If you did the same thing to a GTS but left out the GT3 engine and charged GT3 prices it's silly, you're leaving out the best part and playing for a lesser engine. 

Having a Street GT or R or GS or GS/GT like an old 4-cam 356 (my favorite) makes sense because it gives a more usable daily driver that is more engaging yet still a practical street car. There are numerous people (I'm one of them) that simply can't get a 2 seat 911 to work with their lifestyle. I have two small boys neither of whom will be able to drive in my Porsche for at least another three years (or 7 in the case of the younger one). I would be interested in a 911 with a GT3 engine and rear seats though. Especially if it wasn't as boy racerish as a GT3. 

I've thought about a Turbo but it isn't as engaging and I'm not wholly comfortable tracking a regular 911, though I recognize that that's mostly due to bias against the older watercooled 911 generations. I also don't like to be that slow at the track when I do go (though no street 911 is really that fast on a track).  

Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

You can basically "destroy" most tracked GT3 on the track with a regular 991 Turbo S if the driver skills are similar. The Turbo S is more forgiving and the traction is insane. Don't underestimate this car. If I would have been on the track more often, I would have kept the Turbo S.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

You can basically "destroy" most tracked GT3 on the track with a regular 991 Turbo S if the driver skills are similar. The Turbo S is more forgiving and the traction is insane. Don't underestimate this car. If I would have been on the track more often, I would have kept the Turbo S.

A fast cleaner ?

The light stripped down RS for cheap $$$? No. It would be either huge $$$ special edition or most likely not at all. There is a very small market for it. And that's basically what the GT3 is.

Whoopsy:

SciFrog:

Blue, not true, again. Look at the 960. People want it yet it is not coming.

Panamera with 5 seat?

Cayenne turbo with GTS handling?

Infotainment retrofit to modern era cars?

Porsche has a whole history of not delivering what people want although they sometimes listen.

 

1st 2 items has to do with brand turf war. If Porsche did the 960, who would buy the Audi R8? If Panamera has 5 seats, then what's the point of the A8/S8? Piech was fiercely protective of his baby's turf, that stand soften up somewhat with the Macan's arrival, and now Audi's guardian is gone. The new Panamera 'should' have that 3 seat rear bench that most people wanted if my sources are correct. The 960, well it just wasn't it's time right now.

Cayenne Turbo has to carry some extra pounds over the GTS, so the handling will never be able to match the lighter car.

Wait about 20 years, then the infotainment system will get refitted, look at the 993s, they JUST got the single DIN navigation system :)

 

 

The Cayenne turbo could have suspension tuned to be similar to the GTS. It is not just a weight issue.

Most Cayennes will be in the graveyard in 20 years. PCM retrofit was needed after 3-4 years.

RC:

You can basically "destroy" most tracked GT3 on the track with a regular 991 Turbo S if the driver skills are similar. The Turbo S is more forgiving and the traction is insane. Don't underestimate this car. If I would have been on the track more often, I would have kept the Turbo S.

EVO track times for 991 GT3RS and 991 Turbo S around a small tightish circuit are the same

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONt8wxKHbBI

sfo:

RC:

You can basically "destroy" most tracked GT3 on the track with a regular 991 Turbo S if the driver skills are similar. The Turbo S is more forgiving and the traction is insane. Don't underestimate this car. If I would have been on the track more often, I would have kept the Turbo S.

EVO track times for 991 GT3RS and 991 Turbo S around a small tightish circuit are the same

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONt8wxKHbBI

In the hands of a pro driver. In the hands of a halfway skilled amateur, the 991 Turbo S will always be faster. 

The Turbo S is amazingly fast, even for not so skilled drivers, I had to really push this car hard to get to the limit, wasn't easy, it is so forgiving and the setup is basically perfect. This is a car I recommend for people who just want to have some occasional track fun without any further ambitions. They could impress even more skilled drivers with their times. Of course if you drive the Turbo S for a longer time on the track, the tires and at some point the brake as well, will show signs of fatigue. This is where the GT3 RS would start to excel big time.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Funny no mention of the GT4 

RC:

 

Of course if you drive the Turbo S for a longer time on the track, the tires and at some point the brake as well, will show signs of fatigue. This is where the GT3 RS would start to excel big time.

--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

 

I have witnessed exactly that with a RS6 driver who though will blow everybody into the woods with his 720 MTM HP - and was "in" after 1 lap as he was tearing whole Squares out of his tires - due to weight and no semi-slick of course - many cars these days are only good for 1 lap or so but their drivers think HP only

RC:

Whoopsy:

Well, let's look at the 918.

most of the test cycle is on the electric mode, so it's silent. Which is why the loud stock exhaust can passed. I mean seriously, the STOCK exhaust system on the 918 will not pass the sound rules on Laguna Seca raceway on a normal track day. 

I do not know how the stock exhaust of my GT500 passed the sound emissions test in the US. Thanks god, there is no such requirement in Germany because it is an import car with an individual technical certification.

There are no stringent exhaust SPL rules in the US. Your GT500 and louder drive around just fine. The reference to Laguna Seca rules is specific to an area surrounding the race track. It's a stupid situation because the residents pushing that rule purchased/built their homes well after the race track being in existence.

--

_________________________________________________________________ 

"Dream as impractical, irrational and unnecessary as that may be... Here's to the Dreamers!" -- Porsche AG.

991.2 Turbo/Turbo S models will have web intro on 30.11. or 01.12. German configurator should be online few hours after web intro. Start of sales also. Production starts in March 2016 as Peter already posted. First deliveries April 2016 (Germany) and May 2016 (rest of EU).

KresoF1:

991.2 Turbo/Turbo S models will have web intro on 30.11. or 01.12. German configurator should be online few hours after web intro. Start of sales also. Production starts in March 2016 as Peter already posted. First deliveries April 2016 (Germany) and May 2016 (rest of EU).

 

 

580 hp finally for tts?

artur777:

KresoF1:

991.2 Turbo/Turbo S models will have web intro on 30.11. or 01.12. German configurator should be online few hours after web intro. Start of sales also. Production starts in March 2016 as Peter already posted. First deliveries April 2016 (Germany) and May 2016 (rest of EU).

 

 

580 hp finally for tts?

Yes, and 540ps for Turbo.

So the 991.2 turbo still has less hp than the Cayenne TTS... Sad

SciFrog:

So the 991.2 turbo still has less hp than the Cayenne TTS... Sad

Enlight me what is the relationship between 991.2 and Cayenne?

Between a 1600kg sportscar and 2200kg SUV?

Between a 3.8l 6cyl biturbo and 4.8l v8 biturbo?

KresoF1:

SciFrog:

So the 991.2 turbo still has less hp than the Cayenne TTS... Sad

Enlight me what is the relationship between 991.2 and Cayenne?

Between a 1600kg sportscar and 2200kg SUV?

Between a 3.8l 6cyl biturbo and 4.8l v8 biturbo?

The only relation is the absolute hp level, in the context that everyone is saying the 991 turbo and S are underpowered vs the competition and vs the chassis potential of the car...

I really don't know why Porsche doesn't spend the Turbo 600 hp, at least for the TTS. Sure, nobody will ever feel the difference between 600 or 580 hp (or even 560 for instance), but the market and the customers demand these numbers for the top model 911.

We're at the point where you can be the fastest or just sound like you're the fastest.



The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

Rossi:

I really don't know why Porsche doesn't spend the Turbo 600 hp, at least for the TTS. Sure, nobody will ever feel the difference between 600 or 580 hp (or even 560 for instance), but the market and the customers demand these numbers for the top model 911.

They want to cross that marketing threshold with the 992 Turbo S, I guess...

--

16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550