Crown

Agent Provocateur:

70 years on and those Germans are still trying to gas everyone....

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2003 Cayenne Turbo

 

If this reply was somehow meant to be funny I'm afraid to me anyway it most certainly is not. 

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Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

To be honest I do not really care how hard VW is punished on a US justice scale since deals will be done at many levels; I am though highly interested in how this event might impact the future of diesel vehicles, within the mix of choices available to consumers.   Diesels are both:  1. firmly established as the gold standard for efficiency, across almost all vehicle sectors, costing barely more to buy but much less to operate (eg. EU including UK, Japan, in part Australia), and   2. barely getting a foothold and seen as a quirky choice that costs only slightly less to run and more to buy (USA, slightly less so Canada).  

One possibility is that the nascent rise in diesel sales in the US will largely stop - diesel fuel is mostly more expensive due to refinery choices and the lack of EU subsidies, and normal petrol is still cheap by world or historic standards.  As an example, Land Rover has just (literally within the past month or so) started to bring their TdV6 engines to North America.... they use urea so presumably meet all standards, but we will see how well they sell now - awful timing through no fault of JLR.  Mercedes have had perhaps the biggest inroads to diesel sales over here - again we will see how this impacts customer choices as gasoline options are always available for similar costs. 

In the EU, as others have pointed out here, it will be much more difficult to turn around the diesel juggernaut - there would need to be significant changes to tax and fuel subsidy policy, coordinated across all EU, and there would need to be sudden new capacity for alternative engines (which does not exist without rapid capital spending, and time).  This seems unlikely to happen, which suggests a different outcome in EU, where policy goes to make "super-clean" diesel, mandated to use urea for all cars (and possibly other technologies), and new testing protocols to try to regain consumer trust in the results.   Motorists now driving the mainstream diesel cars presumably care about emissions, but will they want to throw away 25-35% of operating cost efficiency in moving away from diesels?  My guess is no.  

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2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S

Well, if diesel weren't propped up by tax policy, it never would have become as popular in Europe as it is. As that ends, there will be a gradual transition away from diesel in Europe and back to petrol, hybrids and all electric. Diesels days in the US, perhaps NA, are finished, and in Europe, they are likely numbered. 

diesels spew out a lot more toxic stuff than cars .. you can smell it.

I hope diesel gate spells the end of diesel cars, at least the older ones.

In the medium term there is no substitute for diesel in terms of fuel economy. Everytime contemporary hybrids are tested against diesels the latter win on fuel consumption. Present day hybrids are a gimmick except the likes of 918 who are made with a different remit.

How the hybrid and the all electric will evolve in future it remains to be seen. Until them diesel will rule outside the USA.

Governments wouldn't be willing to tax diesel transport private or commercial because this would increase the cost of living for millions of people.

The issue raised in the VW fiasco isn't the suitability of diesel cars but that of one auto company cheating on the figures. If tomorrow someone was found cheating on the petrol CO2 emissions should we expect cars to be banned?

"Form follows function"

reginos:

If tomorrow someone was found cheating on the petrol CO2 emissions should we expect cars to be banned?

The problem is that, although CO2 emissions are a big problem, over focus on those has hidden the "dirty" nature of diesel. Diesel is, overall, inherently worse than petrol for the environment and it's use should be limited to applications, like big trucks, where petrol engines don't work as well. There's no need for it in cars.

apias:

reginos:

If tomorrow someone was found cheating on the petrol CO2 emissions should we expect cars to be banned?

The problem is that, although CO2 emissions are a big problem, over focus on those has hidden the "dirty" nature of diesel. Diesel is, overall, inherently worse than petrol for the environment and it's use should be limited to applications, like big trucks, where petrol engines don't work as well. There's no need for it in cars.

There is a significant difference iin real world fuel consumption between diesel and petrol. This eases the budget of many households and businesses using light goods vehicles in countries where diesel cars have been popular for decades.

Even if there might have been reasons not to allow diesel in privare vehicles in the first place I cannot see how in Europe with millions of diesel private cars this fuel could be withdrawn or become heavily taxed before an equally efficient and economically viable alternative is invented and introduced in the market. 

"Form follows function"

I'm not suggesting that diesel cars be pulled off the road overnight. I am suggesting that policies should be changed to, over time, discourage their development and use. 

In the long run, perhaps. But this time is not foreseeable today, IMO. 

"Form follows function"

apias:

I'm not suggesting that diesel cars be pulled off the road overnight. I am suggesting that policies should be changed to, over time, discourage their development and use. 

And that will happen, but at the same time the alternatives need to be enhanced... we would need many more of Tesla's gigafactories, and at some point more investment in baseload power as most electrical supply regions have limited capacity for more than a slow increase in electric/plug-in hybrid vehicles.  I do believe this will give a large impetus for manufacturers and consumers to consider hybrids and full electrics - but the manufacturing infrastructure has a ways to go to meet any surge in these.   OTOH, Porsche's Mission E may prove to be perfectly timed... 

2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S

Fully electric also pollute indirectly. Electricity production is not without environmental costs and the disposal of batteries would become a huge burden if the E vehicles rose to hundreds of millions and substituted normal cars.

Today fully electric are a handful worldwide and they appear totally clean. That would change if we all drive one.

"Form follows function"

noone1:

EnglishManInNY:

Agent Provocateur:

70 years on and those Germans are still trying to gas everyone....

Nothing justifies this joke

I laughed out loud at Starbucks just now and I'm a Jew! I'd say it's a good joke. Didn't 11 million people also die in the Holocaust? Grim coincidence...

You and all who think this is funny have a rather strange sense of humour, sorry to say that.

We're at the point where you can be the fastest or just sound like you're the fastest.



The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

reginos:

Fully electric also pollute indirectly. Electricity production is not without environmental costs and the disposal of batteries would become a huge burden if the E vehicles rose to hundreds of millions and substituted normal cars.

Today fully electric are a handful worldwide and they appear totally clean. That would change if we all drive one.

Not disputing any of this Reginos, clearly the environmental benefits of electric must involve not only considering the net increase in baseload power, which is regional as it depends on how power is generated, and the differential use of heavy metals involved in battery production (and replacement + recycling/disposal down the road).  But, we as individual consumers are only (small) players in this long term auto game; states and their regulations have and will continue to tilt the playing field to favour their chosen winners.  If governments believe that there is long term merit in moving transport to a different place (and that the populace will support this move), the various mechanisms of incentives, taxes, regulations etc. will come into play to get there.   If this move is now more in favour of electric in some fashion, then these governments are prepared to make the argument that increased centralized power generation (at least till we all have solar roofs) is a net benefit to the environment compared to increased use of diesel, then that is what they will do.  Whether you buy that argument is another topic.... 

2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S

The department of energy has a graphic illustrating this. As of today, based on energy sources, hybrids are the cleanest on a national basis. It depends where you live though and what type of power sources there are. You can input your zip code.

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.php

996FourEss:

So, GM is culpable for 145 deaths due to faulty ignitions and is fined 900million and VW, having horribly misled people albeit without being involved in the death of anyone, is contemplating $7bn+ in fines. What am I missing, this seems to me to be economic warfare between the U.S. and Germany and it is just not right. Sure it is unacceptable for an engineering led company to cheat, but at some point the punishment has to fit the crime and this seems to be more a case of bureaucrats going after the foreigner than anything else.

Environmental organizations claim that much more deaths will result from the higher emissions in those VW models, which may be, theoretically, possible. Not easy to prove though.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

apias:

I'm not suggesting that diesel cars be pulled off the road overnight. I am suggesting that policies should be changed to, over time, discourage their development and use. 

This will never happen. Many people over here in Europe still believe that their precious Diesel cars are "clean" and environment friendly.  What do you expect? Politics and the media, won't even mention the car industry, have sustained for decades that Diesel cars are "good" and powerful gasoline cars are bad. With lower Diesel prices and lower Diesel consumption, it won't be easy to convince car buyers in Europe that a Diesel is "wrong" on so many levels.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

apias:

I'm not suggesting that diesel cars be pulled off the road overnight. I am suggesting that policies should be changed to, over time, discourage their development and use. 

This will never happen. Many people over here in Europe still believe that their precious Diesel cars are "clean" and environment friendly.  What do you expect? Politics and the media, won't even mention the car industry, have sustained for decades that Diesel cars are "good" and powerful gasoline cars are bad. With lower Diesel prices and lower Diesel consumption, it won't be easy to convince car buyers in Europe that a Diesel is "wrong" on so many levels.

Without Diesel cars, the household and business costs will escalate. I've had several diesels and the difference in fuel economy is very substantial. My Q5 2.0 TDI used 75% of the fuel of my neighbour's 2.0 TFSI. And I am just a private user. You can imagine people who commute every day or use light vans for their business how much they save. BTW the price of diesel in my country is the same as 95 octane petrol, so no tax/price advantage here.

In Europe reducing the volume of diesel cars is a very political decision which the public won't accept.

I am not an expert on chemical substances but I don't think NOx from diesel cars is a most serious cause of illnesses and death. But even so in our heavily polluted world according to the environmentalists most people live to be 90 and many enjoy life up to 80-85. whereas in the era of clean air people died at 65-70.

"Form follows function"

Audis are affected too.....

All VW Group cars with the 1.6 and 2.0 litre TDI are affected. VW, Audi, Skoda and SEAT. And that is so far. As more engines are being scrutinized more emission discrepancies might be revealed and not only at VW.

I wonder whether CO2 figures on petrol engines are also falsified through similar trick software

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"Form follows function"

this reminds me of the expenses scandal of the UK Parliament ..

a small wave eventually became a tsunami

reginos:

All VW Group cars with the 1.6 and 2.0 litre TDI are affected. VW, Audi, Skoda and SEAT. And that is so far. As more engines are being scrutinized more emission discrepancies might be revealed and not only at VW.

I wonder whether CO2 figures on petrol engines are also falsified through similar trick software

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"Form follows function"

 

Well that's my otherwise excellent Skoda Octavia implicated then as it has the 2.0TDI engine. Let's see what they intend to do........

Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

I have all my VW Transporters  with this engine .  The Swiss law consider this as fraud and will be automatically prosecuted.  Advice here is to already send an official letter to the dealer mentioning the fraud and that further action will be taken .

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 997.2 C2 ,  -20mm  I 964 Carrera 4 I 991 GT3 RS 

Gnil:

I have all my VW Transporters  with this engine .  The Swiss law consider this as fraud and will be automatically prosecuted.  Advice here is to already send an official letter to the dealer mentioning the fraud and that further action will be taken .

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 997.2 C2 ,  -20mm  I 964 Carrera 4 I 991 GT3 RS 

 

Here in the UK VW would fall foul of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 which states that any item sold must be as described, of satisfactory quality and fit for purpose. Interestingly my understanding is it is not VW that would be liable but the garage that sold the car as the sale contract is with them not the manufacturer.

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Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

What will be the impact of the Porsche R & D Director being dismissed???

dreamcar:

Gnil:

I have all my VW Transporters  with this engine .  The Swiss law consider this as fraud and will be automatically prosecuted.  Advice here is to already send an official letter to the dealer mentioning the fraud and that further action will be taken .

--

 

 997.2 C2 ,  -20mm  I 964 Carrera 4 I 991 GT3 RS 

 

Here in the UK VW would fall foul of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 which states that any item sold must be as described, of satisfactory quality and fit for purpose. Interestingly my understanding is it is not VW that would be liable but the garage that sold the car as the sale contract is with them not the manufacturer.

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Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

 

But the NOx values which have been falsified are not shown on any sales brochure or other literature or presentation on the basis of which customers make their buying decision.

On the certificate of conformity and the registration documents used in the EU only CO2 is mentioned.

The EU regulation centers around CO2. Is there evidence that this had also been altered as to deceive?

"Form follows function"

964C2:

What will be the impact of the Porsche R & D Director being dismissed???

He was dismissed because of his capacity as Group Director for engines and transmissions which he held in parallel with the Porsche R&D post.

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"Form follows function"

dreamcar:

Gnil:

Interestingly my understanding is it is not VW that would be liable but the garage that sold the car as the sale contract is with them not the manufacturer.

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Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

 

Here it is the same . That's why we have to write/attack   the dealer . He then will do the same to his supplier ( VW )

 997.2 C2 ,  -20mm  I 964 Carrera 4 I 991 GT3 RS 

reginos:

dreamcar:

Gnil:

I have all my VW Transporters  with this engine .  The Swiss law consider this as fraud and will be automatically prosecuted.  Advice here is to already send an official letter to the dealer mentioning the fraud and that further action will be taken .

--

 

 997.2 C2 ,  -20mm  I 964 Carrera 4 I 991 GT3 RS 

 

Here in the UK VW would fall foul of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 which states that any item sold must be as described, of satisfactory quality and fit for purpose. Interestingly my understanding is it is not VW that would be liable but the garage that sold the car as the sale contract is with them not the manufacturer.

--

 

Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

 

But the NOx values which have been falsified are not shown on any sales brochure or other literature or presentation on the basis of which customers make their buying decision.

On the certificate of conformity and the registration documents used in the EU only CO2 is mentioned.

The EU regulation centers around CO2. Is there evidence that this had also been altered as to deceive?

 

I believe the "cheat" software has been used in EU countries to produce artificially low CO2 test results, but I'm not sure of this.

Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

dreamcar:

reginos:

dreamcar:

Gnil:

I have all my VW Transporters  with this engine .  The Swiss law consider this as fraud and will be automatically prosecuted.  Advice here is to already send an official letter to the dealer mentioning the fraud and that further action will be taken .

--

 

 997.2 C2 ,  -20mm  I 964 Carrera 4 I 991 GT3 RS 

 

Here in the UK VW would fall foul of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 which states that any item sold must be as described, of satisfactory quality and fit for purpose. Interestingly my understanding is it is not VW that would be liable but the garage that sold the car as the sale contract is with them not the manufacturer.

--

 

Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

 

But the NOx values which have been falsified are not shown on any sales brochure or other literature or presentation on the basis of which customers make their buying decision.

On the certificate of conformity and the registration documents used in the EU only CO2 is mentioned.

The EU regulation centers around CO2. Is there evidence that this had also been altered as to deceive?

 

I believe the "cheat" software has been used in EU countries to produce artificially low CO2 test results, but I'm not sure of this.

 If NOx and CO2 values go in parallel that would be the case. In all the press coverages only NOx is mentioned 

"Form follows function"

So far Hatz has not been dismissed, but rather has been suspended.