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Sep 22, 2015 1:40:58 PM
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wantone
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Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
wantone:It makes sense for VW to sell Porsche to another manufacturer now...
You are aware that the Porsche family basically owns VW? 
I had a very negative ownership experience with a VR6 more than 10 years ago so I am not surprised that they will do something like that...
VW has improved quality a lot but their "bread and butter" engine 2.0 TDi commonrail Euro 5 may have been flawed from the beginning, so this was (maybe) the only way to save it. 
This cannot be an excuse though, true.
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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)
Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
RC:bridggar:Winterkorn gone - Mueller in his seat?
Yes.
This is going to be interesting.
VW just denied it and called it "bullshit". 
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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)
Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
RC:wantone:It makes sense for VW to sell Porsche to another manufacturer now...
You are aware that the Porsche family basically owns VW?
I had a very negative ownership experience with a VR6 more than 10 years ago so I am not surprised that they will do something like that...
VW has improved quality a lot but their "bread and butter" engine 2.0 TDi commonrail Euro 5 may have been flawed from the beginning, so this was (maybe) the only way to save it.
Let's see if, after all the penalties and the fines, they will still manage to control the company...
Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
wantone:RC:wantone:It makes sense for VW to sell Porsche to another manufacturer now...
You are aware that the Porsche family basically owns VW?
I had a very negative ownership experience with a VR6 more than 10 years ago so I am not surprised that they will do something like that...
VW has improved quality a lot but their "bread and butter" engine 2.0 TDi commonrail Euro 5 may have been flawed from the beginning, so this was (maybe) the only way to save it.
Let's see if after all the penalties and the fines they will still manage to control the company...
This is going to be very interesting indeed but it may also have some pretty serious consequences for Winterkorn and other members of the VW leadership: What VW did in the US is actually punishable as a criminal offense, meaning that prison time is involved. Not sure who is going to take the blame but some people may actually go to prison over that.
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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)
Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
RC:RC:bridggar:Winterkorn gone - Mueller in his seat?
Yes.
This is going to be interesting.
VW just denied it and called it "bullshit".
A meeting to take place on the upcoming Friday is the earliest date on which such a decision could be taken.
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fritz
Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
Now may be the time to "separate" Porsche and other "embedded" brands from the VW family. Just saying... 
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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)
Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
Whoopsy:Just dump VW the brand. Let it die.
It's like cutting off an arm to save the whole body, painful, but survivable.
Are you serious? Even proposing this in Germany would get you killed. Instantly. By a mob. Or by the syndicate. Or both. 
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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)
Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
RC:Whoopsy:Just dump VW the brand. Let it die.
It's like cutting off an arm to save the whole body, painful, but survivable.
Are you serious? Even proposing this in Germany would get you killed. Instantly. By a mob. Or by the syndicate. Or both.
Yes I am. They could copy the GM model.
There are times when I am a cutthroat ruthless businessman.
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Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
Well, this situation has certainly distracted attention from this rumour:
http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/volkswagen-wants-to-buy-red-bull-and-go-racing.html/?a=viewall
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fritz
Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
Sep 22, 2015 2:50:18 PM
- CGX car nut
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Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
Autocar has an excellent timeline of events and after reading that article, I can not help but think that the ouster of Piech this past spring was tied to the current events. One may recall that Piech lost confidence with Winterkorn as manager of VW and his management in the United States. Did the Supervisory Board work in unison with Winterkorn to try to bury this?
Sep 22, 2015 2:52:05 PM
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RC
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Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
CGX car nut:Autocar has an excellent timeline of events and after reading that article, I can not help but think that the ouster of Piech this past spring was tied to the current events. One may recall that Piech lost confidence with Winterkorn as manager of VW and his management in the United States. Did the Supervisory Board work in unison with Winterkorn to try to bury this?
Interesting point but I doubt that Piech would really go to war over this with the leadership. He is an engineer.
Just a coincidence, I think.
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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)
Sep 22, 2015 2:59:39 PM
- CGX car nut
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RC
Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
RC:CGX car nut:Autocar has an excellent timeline of events and after reading that article, I can not help but think that the ouster of Piech this past spring was tied to the current events. One may recall that Piech lost confidence with Winterkorn as manager of VW and his management in the United States. Did the Supervisory Board work in unison with Winterkorn to try to bury this?
Interesting point but I doubt that Piech would really go to war over this with the leadership. He is an engineer.
Just a coincidence, I think.
May be just a coincidence; however, Piech was asked to resign on April 25, 2015. According to Autocar's timeline, the California Air Resources Board ("CARB") tested the recalled cars on May 6, 2015. Therefore, this would be in discuss at the time Piech stated he lost confidence in Winterkorn and the discussions focused on Winterkorn's handling of the U.S. market. The stories always referred to growth in what is viewed as a key market. Well, what happened a couple of days, is having a significantly negative impact on sales in North America as the diesel cars in question are 20-25% of the VW's sales here.
From a Forbes article, dated April 25, 2015:
"It was never made clear why Piech suddenly decided to get rid of Winterkorn. After all, the company has been hugely successful in terms of sales. But reports suggested Piech had become impatient with the lack of progress making the VW brand profitable, and fixing the dismal failure in the U.S."
Sep 22, 2015 3:01:51 PM
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RC
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Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
Maybe but this cheating seems to go on for quite some while and I assume Piech knew about it much earlier... Just a wild assumption though of course.
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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)
Sep 22, 2015 3:07:09 PM
- CGX car nut
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RC
Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
Information flows can, and are usually, stopped before involvement at the Board level. The Board is just that supervisory, and is not involved in the day-to-day issues of running the company. Of course, some individuals, like Piech, are more involved in the operations of the business. The Board may have had no idea of any wrongdoing until the first recall was issued in December 2014.
Sep 22, 2015 3:09:29 PM
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SciFrog
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Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
This will cost them much more than the money they put aside:
1) criminal fees and penalties
2) EPA penalties
3) fix the cars (new engine?) and/or buy back the cars
4) damages to owners for selling a product with fraudulent specs
5) reputation damages
Sep 22, 2015 3:11:35 PM
- apias
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Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
CGX car nut:May be just a coincidence; however, Piech was asked to resign on April 25, 2015. According to Autocar's timeline, the California Air Resources Board ("CARB") tested the recalled cars on May 6, 2015. Therefore, this would be in discuss at the time Piech stated he lost confidence in Winterkorn and the discussions focused on Winterkorn's handling of the U.S. market. The stories always referred to growth in what is viewed as a key market. Well, what happened a couple of days, is having a significantly negative impact on sales in North America as the diesel cars in question are 20-25% of the VW's sales here.
From a Forbes article, dated April 25, 2015:
"It was never made clear why Piech suddenly decided to get rid of Winterkorn. After all, the company has been hugely successful in terms of sales. But reports suggested Piech had become impatient with the lack of progress making the VW brand profitable, and fixing the dismal failure in the U.S."
Yes, I mentioned this above, and actually, the investigation had been going on much longer, but in April, it was being engaged in earnest. It almost seems too much of a coincidence, given the abruptness of Piech's "distance" from Winterkorn, to not be related.
Sep 22, 2015 3:13:22 PM
- CGX car nut
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Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
The damages and payouts will be allocated on a quarterly basis, so what is allocated this quarter is only part of the reserve being set aside. The size of the reserve will not be disclosed as it could hamper negotiations to resolve this matter. However, the impact to VW's future product plans is severe.
Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
If this is true, Piech could have a comeback but I still cannot believe it. Either Piech knew all along and didn't care or if the really knew and this is the reason he didn't trust Winterkorn anymore, he wouldn't have allowed this to continue because he knew exactly what would happen if it gets public. I think we are interpreting way too much into the Piech/Winterkorn crisis but you never know, business is cutthroat.
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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)
Sep 22, 2015 3:20:43 PM
- JoeRockhead
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RC
Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
RC:If this is true, Piech could have a comeback but I still cannot believe it. Either Piech knew all along and didn't care or if the really knew and this is the reason he didn't trust Winterkorn anymore, he wouldn't have allowed this to continue because he knew exactly what would happen if it gets public. I think we are interpreting way too much into the Piech/Winterkorn crisis but you never know, business is cutthroat.
If someone that high in Volkswagen knew about this and either authorized it or turned a blind eye then it would probably go down as one of the worst corporate suicides to date, and they deserve what they get.
Sep 22, 2015 3:22:12 PM
- CGX car nut
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RC
Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
RC:If this is true, Piech could have a comeback but I still cannot believe it. Either Piech knew all along and didn't care or if the really knew and this is the reason he didn't trust Winterkorn anymore, he wouldn't have allowed this to continue because he knew exactly what would happen if it gets public. I think we are interpreting way too much into the Piech/Winterkorn crisis but you never know, business is cutthroat.
Piech is an old, wise sage that would not jeopardize the business he built over the decades. The Volkswagen empire is his child. Also, don't forget that Piech learned much in the late 1980's when he guided Audi through the "unintended acceleration" crisis in the United States. That experience should have shaped his business perspective greatly.
Sep 22, 2015 3:34:28 PM
- SoCal Alan
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Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
JoeRockhead:RC:If this is true, Piech could have a comeback but I still cannot believe it. Either Piech knew all along and didn't care or if the really knew and this is the reason he didn't trust Winterkorn anymore, he wouldn't have allowed this to continue because he knew exactly what would happen if it gets public. I think we are interpreting way too much into the Piech/Winterkorn crisis but you never know, business is cutthroat.
If someone that high in Volkswagen knew about this and either authorized it or turned a blind eye then it would probably go down as one of the worst corporate suicides to date, and they deserve what they get.
I'm going to guess that the software mods weren't approved at a high management level. More like at a much lower level. And maybe only 1 or 2 sw and/or hw engineers knew about it at the time. But, regardless, responsibility has to be accepted, at the top.
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Sep 22, 2015 3:36:01 PM
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SciFrog
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Sep 22, 2015 3:42:34 PM
- JoeRockhead
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Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
SciFrog:That doesn't seem reasonable. Some top execs must have known this mass market engine didn't have the proper emissions standards capabilities.
I don't think that the coding would have been that trivial, and it must have involved bench tests so it's likely that a few groups were involved - which leads me to believe someone with significant authority knew about it.
Sep 22, 2015 3:42:35 PM
- CGX car nut
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Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests
SciFrog:That doesn't seem reasonable. Some top execs must have known this mass market engine didn't have the proper emissions standards capabilities.
If Winterkorn didn't initially know about the issue, he have had to learn about by the autumn of 2014 when everything was going wrong fast. Up until that time, the issue may have stopped at the head of engine development.
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