Crown

It is about time to start the trial.

Here in Germany the whole buzz is kind of back to normality. The VW CEO collects its awards for best cars and everything is like back to "normal". It is insane!

The criminal energy this leadership team demonstrated is extremely high. They put on risk way to many jobs, the reputation of the industry, the reputation of Germany, etc. They need to be extremely punished. Just giving them space to go into (high paid) pension can't be enough. Also - it speaks for the current generation of leaders and C-Level directors. I know way to many of my peers which are working for the wrong reasons and with the wrong attitude. And again - the ones which are "clean" are the one suffering most of it. Put those bastards to jail and suck every penny out of them, punishment can't be hard enough!

Well as we learn more and more about this scandal, we find more and more greedy hands involved.. soon the US government will have to sue itself and the sky.. The top dogs should rot in hell, but sadly of course places especially like the US will protect all these sad excuses of humans. 

The sales numbers in Germany show that VW sales are slightly up even in light of this scandal. Crazy stats. 

1991 BMW 535i Granitsilber/White Leather

Ex: '91 BMW 318i, '89 BMW 525i, '74 Mercedes-Benz 280E, '87 BMW 325is, '86 BMW 325e, '05 Ford Focus ZX4 S, '85.5 Porsche 944

Modern cars are all already very clean, including the VW diesels. Most of them emit cleaner air than the air they breath in. The more they are driven, the more they clean up the air around them.

The governments are going the wrong way on combating emissions. Instead of mandating cleaner and cleaner new cars, they should go after the older and non-maintained cars, those are far worse emitters. They are the ones that causes smog around the world.

Whoopsy:

Modern cars are all already very clean, including the VW diesels. Most of them emit cleaner air than the air they breath in. The more they are driven, the more they clean up the air around them.

The governments are going the wrong way on combating emissions. Instead of mandating cleaner and cleaner new cars, they should go after the older and non-maintained cars, those are far worse emitters. They are the ones that causes smog around the world.

 

 So would you prefer to breathe the air that goes into your car (not being the 918 ;-)) or the air coming out of the exhaust?

As a car nut, the smell of exhaust in the morning is the best smell ever. 

There's really a very simple experiment that can be performed to test this; you don't even have to drive anywhere and no expensive instruments are required. You can perform this test with either a petrol or diesel engine, the results will be the same.

First, with your car in the driveway, facing upwind, get in the car, start the engine, close the windows and turn on the ventilation system to draw air in from the outside. Do this for 30 minutes and note how you feel breathing this air being "breathed into" the car.

Now, shut off the ventilation system, turn off the engine, connect a hose to an exhaust pipe and run the hose into the car through one of the windows, partially opened, tape some plastic over the window opening to seal it and make sure any other windows are closed. Get in the car, start the engine, make sure the ventilation system is off. Do this for 30 minutes and note how you feel breathing this air coming from the exhaust.

In the unlikely event you are still alive after this second trial, compare your impressions of the air quality, and let us know which you feel is "cleaner".

You guys really think Whoopsy was serious? 

2005 997S Blk/Blk

apias:

There's really a very simple experiment that can be performed to test this; you don't even have to drive anywhere and no expensive instruments are required. You can perform this test with either a petrol or diesel engine, the results will be the same.

First, with your car in the driveway, facing upwind, get in the car, start the engine, close the windows and turn on the ventilation system to draw air in from the outside. Do this for 30 minutes and note how you feel breathing this air being "breathed into" the car.

Now, shut off the ventilation system, turn off the engine, connect a hose to an exhaust pipe and run the hose into the car through one of the windows, partially opened, tape some plastic over the window opening to seal it and make sure any other windows are closed. Get in the car, start the engine, make sure the ventilation system is off. Do this for 30 minutes and note how you feel breathing this air coming from the exhaust.

In the unlikely event you are still alive after this second trial, compare your impressions of the air quality, and let us know which you feel is "cleaner".

You go first. 

While exhaust is obviously poisonous it is still possible that other elements are cleaned up and eliminated during the combustion process. Btw Clarkson made the same point when testing the 997 Turbo for Top Gear. 

SoCal Alan:

You guys really think Whoopsy was serious? 

Oh... 

Who can tell? 

Leawood911:

apias:

There's really a very simple experiment that can be performed to test this; you don't even have to drive anywhere and no expensive instruments are required. You can perform this test with either a petrol or diesel engine, the results will be the same.

First, with your car in the driveway, facing upwind, get in the car, start the engine, close the windows and turn on the ventilation system to draw air in from the outside. Do this for 30 minutes and note how you feel breathing this air being "breathed into" the car.

Now, shut off the ventilation system, turn off the engine, connect a hose to an exhaust pipe and run the hose into the car through one of the windows, partially opened, tape some plastic over the window opening to seal it and make sure any other windows are closed. Get in the car, start the engine, make sure the ventilation system is off. Do this for 30 minutes and note how you feel breathing this air coming from the exhaust.

In the unlikely event you are still alive after this second trial, compare your impressions of the air quality, and let us know which you feel is "cleaner".

You go first. 

While exhaust is obviously poisonous it is still possible that other elements are cleaned up and eliminated during the combustion process. Btw Clarkson made the same point when testing the 997 Turbo for Top Gear. 

Well, if Clarkson says so we naturally have to take it seriously.  

fritz

apias:

There's really a very simple experiment that can be performed to test this; you don't even have to drive anywhere and no expensive instruments are required. You can perform this test with either a petrol or diesel engine, the results will be the same.

First, with your car in the driveway, facing upwind, get in the car, start the engine, close the windows and turn on the ventilation system to draw air in from the outside. Do this for 30 minutes and note how you feel breathing this air being "breathed into" the car.

Now, shut off the ventilation system, turn off the engine, connect a hose to an exhaust pipe and run the hose into the car through one of the windows, partially opened, tape some plastic over the window opening to seal it and make sure any other windows are closed. Get in the car, start the engine, make sure the ventilation system is off. Do this for 30 minutes and note how you feel breathing this air coming from the exhaust.

In the unlikely event you are still alive after this second trial, compare your impressions of the air quality, and let us know which you feel is "cleaner".

The carbon monoxide levels emitted by all modern cars today is so low, a half-hour run isn't going to do much beyond giving the occupants a slight headache and, perhaps, some smelly clothes.  It will take much longer for carbon monoxide to become effective.

Returning to the subject of Volkswagen and illegal emissions, while Volkswagen did break the Clean Air Act and should be suitably punished, the tirades one often reads do little to accomplish that goal.  The emissions are magnitudes lower than many other vehicles in operation throughout the world and agriculture, and one's lawn, emit significantly higher levels of nitrous oxide compounds annually.  

Volkswagen is not alone with gaming the emission standards, though most other automakers are not as blatant; however, consider hybrid powertrains, especially plug-in hybrids.  The operation of these prime movers fit the very definition of cheater devices as set forth against Volkswagen by the EPA and CARB.

CGX car nut:

apias:

There's really a very simple experiment that can be performed to test this; you don't even have to drive anywhere and no expensive instruments are required. You can perform this test with either a petrol or diesel engine, the results will be the same.

First, with your car in the driveway, facing upwind, get in the car, start the engine, close the windows and turn on the ventilation system to draw air in from the outside. Do this for 30 minutes and note how you feel breathing this air being "breathed into" the car.

Now, shut off the ventilation system, turn off the engine, connect a hose to an exhaust pipe and run the hose into the car through one of the windows, partially opened, tape some plastic over the window opening to seal it and make sure any other windows are closed. Get in the car, start the engine, make sure the ventilation system is off. Do this for 30 minutes and note how you feel breathing this air coming from the exhaust.

In the unlikely event you are still alive after this second trial, compare your impressions of the air quality, and let us know which you feel is "cleaner".

The carbon monoxide levels emitted by all modern cars today is so low, a half-hour run isn't going to do much beyond giving the occupants a slight headache and, perhaps, some smelly clothes.  It will take much longer for carbon monoxide to become effective.

Are you confident enough about that assertion to try the experiment?

apias:

CGX car nut:

apias:

There's really a very simple experiment that can be performed to test this; you don't even have to drive anywhere and no expensive instruments are required. You can perform this test with either a petrol or diesel engine, the results will be the same.

First, with your car in the driveway, facing upwind, get in the car, start the engine, close the windows and turn on the ventilation system to draw air in from the outside. Do this for 30 minutes and note how you feel breathing this air being "breathed into" the car.

Now, shut off the ventilation system, turn off the engine, connect a hose to an exhaust pipe and run the hose into the car through one of the windows, partially opened, tape some plastic over the window opening to seal it and make sure any other windows are closed. Get in the car, start the engine, make sure the ventilation system is off. Do this for 30 minutes and note how you feel breathing this air coming from the exhaust.

In the unlikely event you are still alive after this second trial, compare your impressions of the air quality, and let us know which you feel is "cleaner".

The carbon monoxide levels emitted by all modern cars today is so low, a half-hour run isn't going to do much beyond giving the occupants a slight headache and, perhaps, some smelly clothes.  It will take much longer for carbon monoxide to become effective.

Are you confident enough about that assertion to try the experiment?

Yes.  If the car is well maintained and fairly recent vintage, there is no issue.

Sorry, I don't believe that you are confident enough to do it. And, unless you have some actual specific comparative data to back up your assertion, I'm going to have to reject it as just talk.

apias:

Sorry, I don't believe that you are confident enough to do it. And, unless you have some actual specific comparative data to back up your assertion, I'm going to have to reject it as just talk.

Start here: http://www.infocusmagazine.org/3.2/env_co.html while not completely vehicle based, the article speaks to the rapid removal of carbon monoxide from a passenger car's exhaust stream and this article is over tens years old.  

From the ICCT test that called Volkswagen out for violating the NOx levels as prescribed by the EPA in Tier 2 Bin 5 emission standards.

From page 53, "Especially CO emissions were observed to be near zero as measured by the CVS system once the after-treatment system was warmed up, while the PEMS captured occasional emissions spikes during acceleration events. "  The discussion of CO continues on for roughly ten pages from the report linked.

  http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/WVU_LDDV_in-use_ICCT_Report_Final_may2014.pdf

Well, none of these sources indicates that a car's exhaust, pumped into your lungs, doesn't contain enough CO to kill you in half an hour. Besides that, there are other toxic gases in car exhaust. I don't see anyone running out to their garage to test it out, because we all ought to know that the exhaust is not cleaner than the intake air, but people still say stupid crap anyway.

We just love to say stupid stuff so you can occupy yourself. 

I heard that the sun is actually a great influence on our temperature. Discuss. 

Whoopsy:

Modern cars are all already very clean, including the VW diesels. Most of them emit cleaner air than the air they breath in. The more they are driven, the more they clean up the air around them.

That's the silliest thing that you've ever said out loud!  

But seriously, I give you this. The scrap program was a huge scam and did not at all benefit the environment. It would be actually much more efficient to continue running an older car alas it emits +20% more bad stuff due to fuel consumption than to scrap it and buy a brand new car! It's about embodied energy and dust-to-dust life cycle analysis. And that's why our environment is getting so screwed, we cannot grasp that holistic mindset. 

1991 BMW 535i Granitsilber/White Leather

Ex: '91 BMW 318i, '89 BMW 525i, '74 Mercedes-Benz 280E, '87 BMW 325is, '86 BMW 325e, '05 Ford Focus ZX4 S, '85.5 Porsche 944

Couldn't find it again. But there are a few cars currently on the road that emits less pollution than the air they breath in, especially in a smog infested city like LA or Beijing. 

Whoopsy:

Couldn't find it again. But there are a few cars currently on the road that emits less pollution than the air they breath in, especially in a smog infested city like LA or Beijing. 

I read that same article, it was a VW TDI of all cars  I wouldn't take some journalist's writing at face value 

1991 BMW 535i Granitsilber/White Leather

Ex: '91 BMW 318i, '89 BMW 525i, '74 Mercedes-Benz 280E, '87 BMW 325is, '86 BMW 325e, '05 Ford Focus ZX4 S, '85.5 Porsche 944

Whoopsy:

Couldn't find it again. But there are a few cars currently on the road that emits less pollution than the air they breath in, especially in a smog infested city like LA or Beijing. 

 

A few years back I believe SAAB claimed that about its new turbo models in London air.

waiting for PDK:

A few years back I believe SAAB claimed that about its new turbo models in London air.

In the late 70's Saab ran an ad in the US that said the exhaust coming out of the 99 Turbo was cleaner than the air around it in New York City....this was to promote the fact that they were the first to introduce the catalytic converter in the US.

One wonders how many of the commenters on this thread are smokers and concerned about the evils of automotive emissions?  The emissions of a cigarette or cigar are magnitudes more harmful than what is emitted from the exhaust of a modern automobile.  The greatest component of automotive exhaust are predominately carbon dioxide and nitrogen while tobacco products produce a venerable atmosphere of harmful compounds including poisonous nicotine to carbon monoxide to nitrous oxide compounds to heavy tars.  

Whoopsy:

Couldn't find it again. But there are a few cars currently on the road that emits less pollution than the air they breath in, especially in a smog infested city like LA or Beijing. 

 

You really have little knowledge about smog in California. LA is not a smog infested city. It was heavy until the CARB set stringent smog standards. But in no way was the smog in LA ever near the heavy smog that Beijing has today. It was bad in the sixties, but that was 50 years ago.

--
Porsche owner since 1975.

http://mashable.com/2016/01/13/california-gas-leak-super-emitter/#7SaO79w5REq8

Hmm, this makes the VW emission thing a tiny drop in the bucket.

Let's see how hard the EPA go after one of their own. 

Whoopsy:

http://mashable.com/2016/01/13/california-gas-leak-super-emitter/#7SaO79w5REq8

 

Hmm, this makes the VW emission thing a tiny drop in the bucket.

Let's see how hard the EPA go after one of their own. 

Surprising that there isn't much mention of this in the media since it's been going on for so long. 

JoeRockhead:

Whoopsy:

http://mashable.com/2016/01/13/california-gas-leak-super-emitter/#7SaO79w5REq8

 

Hmm, this makes the VW emission thing a tiny drop in the bucket.

Let's see how hard the EPA go after one of their own. 

Surprising that there isn't much mention of this in the media since it's been going on for so long. 

Good for the VW lawyers, I would certainly use this for my defense in a way or another, especially to lower the expected fines.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Dish (the US satellite provider) faces up to $24 billion in fines for violating the no-call list, which is more than the company is actually worth.

http://www.geekwire.com/2016/for-defying-no-call-lists-dish-may-be-fined-24-billion/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&a...

I would actually loved to see Dish go bankrupt from the fines. They should be made an example of violating people's privacy. Which is a much bigger issue than spewing out a tiny extra amount of green house gases from the VW diesel cars, the scale of which is dwarf by the California gas leak.