Crown

MKW:

biggest losers  of course are the Peich and Porsche families who have lost a combined $ 17B ( and counting)  in the value of their VWAG stock holdings in the past few weeks ...do yah think a few of the third and fourth generations , far removed from the car biz , are more than just a little bit " annoyed " by the criminal antics of some of the revolving door C-suite suits doing whatever it took to meet the irrelavent  " biggest p*n^s " VWAG goal set in 2008 to be number 1 in the world by 2018 ?

how many here have garages chock full of GM and Toyota products just because they  have traded " #1 in total sales  " back and forth for years

 

 

I feel more for the hundreds of VW employees who may end up losing their jobs over a fiasco that was not of their making than the Piech and Porsche familes who are billionaires anyway.

Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

dreamcar:

MKW:

biggest losers  of course are the Peich and Porsche families who have lost a combined $ 17B ( and counting)  in the value of their VWAG stock holdings in the past few weeks ...do yah think a few of the third and fourth generations , far removed from the car biz , are more than just a little bit " annoyed " by the criminal antics of some of the revolving door C-suite suits doing whatever it took to meet the irrelavent  " biggest p*n^s " VWAG goal set in 2008 to be number 1 in the world by 2018 ?

how many here have garages chock full of GM and Toyota products just because they  have traded " #1 in total sales  " back and forth for years

 

 

I feel more for the hundreds of VW employees who may end up losing their jobs over a fiasco that was not of their making than the Piech and Porsche familes who are billionaires anyway.

I also wouldn't worry so much about the losses the "Family" has supposedly made, but for different reasons.

The current "losses" are only on paper and do not have to be irreversible. The Family is in the company for the long haul. If they stick with it, they are likely to recover a lot of ground. Their real losses in the intervening period will be due to reduced dividend income as the company incurs operating losses until this problem has worked its way through the system. I would expect them to have diversified their investments though, so they are not totally reliant on the VW Group in the meantime for their daily bread. 

The alleged losses will not even be real on paper, due again to the fact that the investment has also been a long term one in the past. VW's preferred stock stands at around €105 at the moment, having already recovered from the last week's low point of €86.46, as a result of the market seeing first signs of VW's plans for fixing the recalled cars in 2016. 

That same stock had gone down about €31.50 back in early 2009, during the financial crisis, giving long term investors the opportunity to reduce their cost averages by buying when prices were low. (That low share price was, after all, what prompted the failed attempt back then by the Porsche company to buy out the much bigger VW company to stop it falling into someone else's hands). Even in the middle of the current crisis, VW's depressed share price is likely to be much higher than the cost average for the VW stocks held in the Family's collective portfolios.   
 

fritz

If accurate, this could be some good news for VW:

• Volkswagen Chief Says Few Knew of Diesel Fraud

If it does turn out to be something not sanctioned from the top, but deception by middle level managers, regulators and prosecutors may go easier on the company. Not sure that this helps them with lawsuits, but, it looks as though they are trying to take some action to minimize the dangers from that.

It's hard to have the cheating originated from the top or even reaching the top of one of the largest automakers without someone in the middle saying we can't do that. had the board knew the engines won't pass, they would have redesigned it, not like they were hurting for cash to redevelop. The board is not going to risk the reputation loss.

It is very likely somewhere in the middle of the corporate chain of command that the news of the engine not passing got stopped and the lie is told.

nberry:

There is no danger of VW going under as a result of this fraud. Certainly none of the government agencies will want to punish VW to the point it fails. However,  the cheat did allow them a competitive advantage against other car companies that had to design diesel engines to meet costly emission requirements. This issue must be addressed.

While it is true there are a few vehicles by law exempted from emission requirements, their impact to the environment is minimal. The cheating with VW started in 2009.

 

Couldn't have stated it any better as senior managers have been exonerated, at least at this stage of the investigation and this has all the trappings of a C.Y.A. move from a few individuals.  Several stories, including one in the Wall Street Journal are reporting that Piech arrived at HQ the day after Winterkorn resigned.  

I read through the EPA Notice of Violation that was sent to Volkswagen and many of the terms the press has relied upon such as "cheating device" and "switch" are actually terms defined by the EPA, in this specific case, to state that the vehicles do not meet the Clean Air Act limits while in operation.  The tone was definitely less draconian than a series of mappings that selectively turned on and off emission control systems.  

Lest you think the US is unfairly singling out German car manufacturers, the US Treasury Department have just asked Toyota to explain why ISIS has their hands on so many new Hilux trucks. 

Here is the WSJ article on Piëch:  http://www.wsj.com/articles/at-volkswagen-a-familiar-figure-returns-1444064101

The VW AG might be "too big to fail" but mostly it is "too good to fail".

They make some of the best cars in the world in each of the categories they compete from the VW Up! to the 918 Spyder and customers around the world recognize that.

Notwithstanding the ICCT/EPA determined endeavor at inflicting damage to this iconic organization (which will cost VW a lot of money in fines and repairs), I am sure that with the exception of some impressionable people in the USA and elsewhere, satisfied consumers will continue to be loyal.

--

"Form follows function"

German police just started to raid VW HQ in Wolfsburg... I wonder why this didn't happen earlier.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

These are routine matters in cases of fraud or suspected fraud of any kind. Perhaps they allowed VW some time to hide some things

Anyway, IMHO it is to the interest of Germans to downplay the whole thing and not to throw more oil into the fire. Even the expression "police raid" shouldn't be used. Instead they could say that VW is "helping police with their inquiries". IMO Germany shouldn't appear too eager to play the American game because it is damaging to the economy.

Fix/replace the cars, pay the fines, ensure that it won't be repeated and let the affair die out.

--

"Form follows function"

RC:

German police just started to raid VW HQ in Wolfsburg... I wonder why this didn't happen earlier.

I would think that the police must be acting on a tip-off from an insider.    
Can you imagine trying to find something in VW HQ if you didn't know where to look and exactly what to look for, and probably amongst documents going back about 8 years?  The famous "needle in a hay-stack" would be easy in comparison  -  they'd just need some powerful magnets.  

fritz

Fishing there should be easy. No exec wants to lose his lifestyle and under questioning will likely implicate a colleague to save his own neck, to relieve pressure, guilt by association, embarrasment etc.. VW had their slush fund scandal in 2005 uncovered that involved bribing politicians and union leaders so the state prosecutors office may know its way around wolfsburg.

JimFlat6:

Fishing there should be easy. No exec wants to lose his lifestyle and under questioning will likely implicate a colleague to save his own neck, to relieve pressure, guilt by association, embarrasment etc.. VW had their slush fund scandal in 2005 uncovered that involved bribing politicians and union leaders so the state prosecutors office may know its way around wolfsburg.

People at VW are no different than everyone else  Banking sector, automotive industry, US politicians.... you name it.

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

reginos:

These are routine matters in cases of fraud or suspected fraud of any kind. Perhaps they allowed VW some time to hide some things

Anyway, IMHO it is to the interest of Germans to downplay the whole thing and not to throw more oil into the fire. Even the expression "police raid" shouldn't be used. Instead they could say that VW is "helping police with their inquiries". IMO Germany shouldn't appear too eager to play the American game because it is damaging to the economy.

Fix/replace the cars, pay the fines, ensure that it won't be repeated and let the affair die out.

I am much more worried about the reaction of "ordinary" people in Germany, regarding this whole VW scandal. There seems to be some sort of solidarity on the horizon, which actually blames Greenpeace (they criticized VW and also published a mocking video) for possibly causing loss of jobs and of course the big bad USA  which is "responsible" for this mess in the first place. You should see some comments on German news/political forums, this is absolutely insane. Such comments have been made all the time since the scandal started but now they are getting more aggressive.

Personally, I still suspect that other manufacturers are cheating as well but the truth will come out eventually, not that this is an excuse for VW and what they did. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

The irony to that is that the US EPA actually gave them a chance to fix it , VW said they did but their "fix" was a lie. Certain execs need to be indicted for consumer faud. No one wants karl the sausage maker in the wolfsburg canteen to lose his job, but those guys in suits with grey hair need to be punished.

RC:

reginos:

These are routine matters in cases of fraud or suspected fraud of any kind. Perhaps they allowed VW some time to hide some things

Anyway, IMHO it is to the interest of Germans to downplay the whole thing and not to throw more oil into the fire. Even the expression "police raid" shouldn't be used. Instead they could say that VW is "helping police with their inquiries". IMO Germany shouldn't appear too eager to play the American game because it is damaging to the economy.

Fix/replace the cars, pay the fines, ensure that it won't be repeated and let the affair die out.

I am much more worried about the reaction of "ordinary" people regarding this whole VW scandal. There seems to be some sort of solidarity on the horizon, which actually blames Greenpeace (they criticized VW and also published a mocking video) for possibly causing loss of jobs and of course the big bad USA  which is "responsible" for this mess in the first place. You should see some comments on German news/political forums, this is absolutely insane.

To be honest with you everybody I've spoken to attribute ulterior motives to the Americans. Of course they see the irregularity of the defeat device but they consider it as something that could be sorted out (technically and politically) with the minimum of fuss.

Those responsible within VW should be dismissed but the whole affair shouldn't be blown out of proportion. I am sure more damage to the environment and to humans has been done by the USA's use of  depleted uranium bombs since 1991 in a variety of locations than by the humble VW TDI engines. No one talks about it and no one has paid a fine or started a class action lawsuit

Germans IMVO should not appear to be too correct and benign in order to satisfy the American agencies and authorities. Admit wrong doing, pay and carry on with producing the cars. And if the USA threaten a boycott of VW AG I cannot believe that the Germany of 80+ million doesn't have a kind of trump card.

"Form follows function"

11 million consumers defrauded is no small matter. The final fix will either be expensive buy backs or expensive modifications that might give owners less efficiency and performance. IF VW chose to due what t hey did to avoid having to license adblue technology from benz, then likely Piech knew of it. Since Wolfgang Porsche is the chairman of the VW investigative committee, you never know what family squabbles will be resolved under cover of this self created catastrophe.

reginos:

...the whole affair shouldn't be blown out of proportion. I am sure more damage to the environment and to humans has been done by the USA's use of  depleted uranium bombs since 1991 in a variety of locations than by the humble VW TDI engines.

Spot on 

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

bluelines:

reginos:

...the whole affair shouldn't be blown out of proportion. I am sure more damage to the environment and to humans has been done by the USA's use of  depleted uranium bombs since 1991 in a variety of locations than by the humble VW TDI engines.

Spot on 

all roads on that lead back to germany. the du rounds were not airdropped bombs but Tank cannon ammo. Of course the tank main gun barrels on western tanks that used it were designed and made where? germany.

JimFlat6:

11 million consumers defrauded is no small matter. The final fix will either be expensive buy backs or expensive modifications that might give owners less efficiency and performance. IF VW chose to due what t hey did to avoid having to license adblue technology from benz, then likely Piech knew of it. Since Wolfgang Porsche is the chairman of the VW investigative committee, you never know what family squabbles will be resolved under cover of this self created catastrophe.

I own two TDI cars and I don't feel defrauded. As a reasonable man I can understand that the share of these engines  to the pollution on the planet is less than negligible. Look at USA's withdrawal from the Kyoto Protocol and refusal to ratify

If the efficiency and performance are eventually reduced I would blame the EPA for starting this theatrical persecution of VW. Everybody with knowledge of the world can understand that the motives are not bona fide.

"Form follows function"

thats pretty twisted. if vw fixes your car to comply and you end up with less power and less efficiency you wont be angry about kyoto but at the company that made it. VW is not a viceless virgin.

I sense a huge issue with TTIP here. Germans are already very angry because of the NSA affair. Now if the VW scandal causes people to lose jobs over here, it will drive Germans away further from the US, like it or not.

I think that the US government should be careful here with what they do to VW and how much this will cost VW. The EPA needs to be reasonable, same goes to the US government. Best thing would be some sort of compensation for affected VW customers in the US, incl. the exchange of their cars (if they want it) and a one time payment as punishment. VW and the US government should find a common ground and make a deal. The longer this takes, the more independent lawsuits are permitted (not even sure if it is possible to avoid that), the worse this will get.

Yes, VW could be milked indefinitely but this will hurt TTIP (actually, I believe TTIP will not happen in the current environment) and of course the US-German friendship. I get it, VW messed up but as reginos said before, there are worse things happening and nobody seems to care (for now). If this gets blown out of proportions, it will hurt the US in the end much more than those higher NOx levels did. 

I can see a (TTIP) deal happening here, involving the current VW scandal, the Safe Harbor ruling, Syrian refugees...and so on. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

reginos:

JimFlat6:

11 million consumers defrauded is no small matter. The final fix will either be expensive buy backs or expensive modifications that might give owners less efficiency and performance. IF VW chose to due what t hey did to avoid having to license adblue technology from benz, then likely Piech knew of it. Since Wolfgang Porsche is the chairman of the VW investigative committee, you never know what family squabbles will be resolved under cover of this self created catastrophe.

I own two TDI cars and I don't feel defrauded. As a reasonable man I can understand that the share of these engines  to the pollution on the planet is less than negligible. Look at USA's withdrawal from the Kyoto Protocol and refusal to ratify

If the efficiency and performance are eventually reduced I would blame the EPA for starting this theatrical persecution of VW. Everybody with knowledge of the world can understand that the motives are not bona fide.

 

You are mixing up CO2 output and NOx output. Two different pair of shoes.  Just saying...

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

TTIP is a turd in a punch bowl.  VW gets caught and Merkel, well she could mover her office to the train station in Passau and bake cookies for travelers....

JimFlat6:

TTIP is a turd in a punch bowl.  VW gets caught and Merkel, well she could mover her office to the train station in Passau and bake cookies for travelers....

TTIP is very important, for the US and for Europe. Many are afraid of it but I think it is necessary and overdue.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

reginos:

JimFlat6:

11 million consumers defrauded is no small matter. The final fix will either be expensive buy backs or expensive modifications that might give owners less efficiency and performance. IF VW chose to due what t hey did to avoid having to license adblue technology from benz, then likely Piech knew of it. Since Wolfgang Porsche is the chairman of the VW investigative committee, you never know what family squabbles will be resolved under cover of this self created catastrophe.

I own two TDI cars and I don't feel defrauded. As a reasonable man I can understand that the share of these engines  to the pollution on the planet is less than negligible. Look at USA's withdrawal from the Kyoto Protocol and refusal to ratify

If the efficiency and performance are eventually reduced I would blame the EPA for starting this theatrical persecution of VW. Everybody with knowledge of the world can understand that the motives are not bona fide.

 

You are mixing up CO2 output and NOx output. Two different pair of shoes.  Just saying...

Not necessarily. Changing the control data to reduce NOx emissions is also very likely to influence CO2 emissions.
According to some reports we have linked to here, there have been signs that the low-NOx software could result in lower fuel consumption and higher maximum power output. This would just mean that the cheat software put the priority on NOx reduction at the expense of power and consumption. 

fritz

By two different pair of shoes I meant that NOx has a direct and pretty immediate negative impact on health, while CO2 may or may not have a negative impact on health based on changes in the environment over decades.

Just let an asthmatic sniff the exhaust pipe of a running Diesel engine and you'll understand.  (no, please don't do that).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

... I think that the US government should be careful here with what they do to VW and how much this will cost VW. ...

I agree. I think they need to follow the precedent they have set with Toyota and GM, regardless of the fact that different agencies are involved. Anything else will not be "fair" treatment.

Unfortunately the VW problem is on a different level. There might be no way the feds can turn off the firehose of state, consumer and dealer lawsuits. VW US now is offering $2000 to current VW owners who buy a new VW and they also cut prices on some models. For how long they can do that is anyones  guess.

reginos:

JimFlat6:

11 million consumers defrauded is no small matter. The final fix will either be expensive buy backs or expensive modifications that might give owners less efficiency and performance. IF VW chose to due what t hey did to avoid having to license adblue technology from benz, then likely Piech knew of it. Since Wolfgang Porsche is the chairman of the VW investigative committee, you never know what family squabbles will be resolved under cover of this self created catastrophe.

I own two TDI cars and I don't feel defrauded. As a reasonable man I can understand that the share of these engines  to the pollution on the planet is less than negligible. Look at USA's withdrawal from the Kyoto Protocol and refusal to ratify

If the efficiency and performance are eventually reduced I would blame the EPA for starting this theatrical persecution of VW. Everybody with knowledge of the world can understand that the motives are not bona fide.

 

From today's Congressional Hearing:

"11:11 a.m.

Volkswagen says most of the 500,000 U.S. cars with diesel engines that cheat on emissions tests will need complex hardware and software fixes that will take several years.

U.S. CEO Michael Horn is telling a U.S. House subcommittee that the cars will still get the window sticker fuel mileage when they are repaired. But the fixes might affect performance, including a one-or-two mile-per-hour drop in top speed.

Horn says software changes alone will work for newer models, but 430,000 cars dating to 2009 will need mechanical fixes that are still being developed.

Horn says software will repair about 90,000 newer Passat models, but they may need an additional sensor".

fritz