Crown

RC:

Lars997:

So, this is a affordable, daily driver family sedan to bring your kids to school and driving grocery shopping 

No AWD.  Also not a fan of the rear wing.

I hope Chrysler is clever enough to offer a Hellcat version of the Jeep GC too. I'm afraid however that this isn't going to happen, for whatever (weird) reason. This car would sell very well.

Same thoughts - no AWD. Also - the Charger will not come to Europe  

I hope the GC makes it, the most heavy car might need it the most and the AWD would give the required traction!

JimFlat6:

The big negative on factory supercharged Mustangs is this: Heat. After several hard runs they lose some power because the cooling and the intercooler system were under engineered. SRT engineers claim the Hellcat motor is good for a solid half hour at full power with no HP loss from heat issues. Maybe Ford will fix that issue on the next version, but I wouldn't count on it yet.

As far as I understood from some German owners, the SVT package is a must and quite sufficient when it comes to heat and/or prolonged Autobahn driving or track racing. The losing of power can also be prevented by using only high octane fuel (95/97 octane US, available in Europe as 100/102 octane fuel) and adjusting the knock sensors correspondently. The car still has serious traction issues though but this is actually where the fun starts with this car. I had a C63 AMG Coupe as you may remember and the GT500 is very similar regarding traction. The manual transmission (clutch) actually allows some "fine-tuning" when starting from standstill but make no mistake, the rear tires can be gone pretty fast.  I just like the idea of a "muscle car" in my garage, also would love to keep this car forever. Over the next years, I can add power by using "Super Snake" parts, so the fun will stay and I do not have to get a completely new car. The only downside: This car costs me 70k EUR (new) and this is a lot of dough for a Mustang. Also, the dealer is in Munich, aprox. 70 km away from my home. My Jeep dealer is "only" 35 km away from my home but this is already a pain in the a.. .  On the other hand, I won't drive the Mustang very often, just on weekends and during spring, summer and autumn, so this shouldn't really be a big deal (dealer being that far away).

Like I said...decisions...not easy but I have to decide fast before the last GT500 are gone. Otherwise, the only choice will  be the Challenger Hellcat and judging by the YouTube videos I've seen so far, I'm not sure this car is for me. I am willing to accept traction issues but the Challenger Hellcat seems to burn 90% of the available power, even before the tires start to build up grip.   This car with AWD should be awesome, I wonder why they cannot fit AWD in the Challenger. This car is huge.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

The real price of a Hellcat --- http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20140819-infographic-hellcats-true-price Supposedly

HEHE... nice picture - thats exactly says it all. 

But hey - why would you need a Ram 3500 and a trailer when owning a 991 C4S Convertible?

According to the most recent tests of Hellcats with 8spd automatic transmissions, they do run consistent 1/4 mile times that match the factory claims - but achieve that by launching in 2nd gear. Also FWIW, Hellcat speedometers stop reading after 202mph.

I have a very good offer for this puppy incl. retrofitted OEM SVT track package (extra rear diff., gearbox and engine oil coolers), incl. KW Stage 3 coil over kit and Watt Link on the rear axle. See photos. Decision needs to be made this weekend. 

This car is a Mexico model (built in the US though), this is why it has the Torsen limited slip diff. standard and this is why it has a kph speedo.

It is a 2013 model but brand-new. The latest model year was 2014 (production has stopped).

Very tempting, this car isn't going to loose much value over the years, even much older cars don't loose more than 40% at max, which is quite amazing for US cars.

Decisions... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

What happened to all the stealth needed in Germany?

SciFrog:

What happened to all the stealth needed in Germany?

Haha, that was just my thought too when I saw the pictures 

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE

2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

It does not count with a '' folks''  car 

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Also it won't be a car that he will be taking to work, it will be a weekend car like the 991TTS he already has.

And it has a manual transmission.. No effete bourgeois PDK in a Shelby The only networking in that car are the neurons in the drivers brain saying oooooooh shiiiiitttt as it slides through any corner from just the slightest amount of throttle. Perfect.

Dollars per Horsepower:

Dodge Challenger SRT Hellcat: $85.70

Ferrari F12berlinetta: $447.04

Ferrari LaFerrari: $1473.68

McLaren P1: $1273.53

Pagani Huayra: $2000.00

Porsche 918 Spyder: $956.00

The GT500 isn't too far away from the Hellcat. Compared to the other exotics, the F12 seems reasonably priced.

I prefer the Hellcat . It's more stealth 

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Gnil:

I prefer the Hellcat . It's more stealth 

I'm with you... 

I don't understand why RC would want this ugly "thing" in his garage. It has an even worse pimp car image than a Corvette, its build quality is bad and it does not more than 150 km on a full tank of petrol (ask Jeremy Clarkosn).

All this while there's a 991 Turbo S in the garage!!  I don't get it  Is that what they call midlife crisis?? 

--

Suzy

2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic    [SOLD]
2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
 

And with those kind words above......

Get it and enjoy it. 662hp and a manual transmission is fun. A friend of mine has a 72 Oldsmobile 442 W-30 that weighs the same as 3 series BMW. Originally it had 375hp/500ft lbs from its 455 cu inch engine. Since it was bored .40 over for 572 cu inches ( about 9 liters of displacement) heads done and given a full race cam, its even more fun. His neighbor who owns a 458 Ferrari keeps asking to buy it.

JimFlat6:

And with those kind words above......

Get it and enjoy it. 662hp and a manual transmission is fun. A friend of mine has a 72 Oldsmobile 442 W-30 that weighs the same as 3 series BMW. Originally it had 375hp/500ft lbs from its 455 cu inch engine. Since it was bored .40 over for 572 cu inches ( about 9 liters of displacement) heads done and given a full race cam, its even more fun. His neighbor who owns a 458 Ferrari keeps asking to buy it.

Okay I might have been a bit rude there 

An old muscle car is so much nicer than this Shelby.  And IMHO, the Challanger is the only modern take on these retro muscle cars that actually works visually. But of course this is all very subjective

--

Suzy

2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic    [SOLD]
2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
 

SuzyF:

JimFlat6:

And with those kind words above......

Get it and enjoy it. 662hp and a manual transmission is fun. A friend of mine has a 72 Oldsmobile 442 W-30 that weighs the same as 3 series BMW. Originally it had 375hp/500ft lbs from its 455 cu inch engine. Since it was bored .40 over for 572 cu inches ( about 9 liters of displacement) heads done and given a full race cam, its even more fun. His neighbor who owns a 458 Ferrari keeps asking to buy it.

Okay I might have been a bit rude there 

An old muscle car is so much nicer than this Shelby.  And IMHO, the Challanger is the only modern take on these retro muscle cars that actually works visually. But of course this is all very subjective

--

Suzy

2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic    [SOLD]
2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
 

However, the prospect of a newer car with less maintenance and safety issues is much more desirable.  Those muscle cars sound like a great idea until you drive one.  There is nothing good when compared with even the lowest priced cars on the market today.  The new cars brake, steer and ride with a level of sophistication totally missing in the old cars from the 1960s and 70s.  

While it is subjective between the styling of the Challenger versus the Mustang, the Mustang is a much smaller car and has a relatively continuous heritage compared with the Dodge.  Furthermore, I have higher confidence in Ford's engineering work than Chrysler's.  There are some very obvious reasons why Chrysler was teetered at the edge of insolvency for the past forty years.  

SciFrog:

What happened to all the stealth needed in Germany?

This is a US car...people "pity" me, they are not envious. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

SuzyF:

Gnil:

I prefer the Hellcat . It's more stealth 

I'm with you... 

I don't understand why RC would want this ugly "thing" in his garage. It has an even worse pimp car image than a Corvette, its build quality is bad and it does not more than 150 km on a full tank of petrol (ask Jeremy Clarkosn).

All this while there's a 991 Turbo S in the garage!!  I don't get it  Is that what they call midlife crisis?? 

 

--

Suzy

2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic    [SOLD]
2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
 

Funny, my wife doesn't like this car either (she likes the Jeep though). The Ford Mustang GT 500 is a pony car, a muscle car, not your ordinary sports car. No comparison with the 991 Turbo S possible, not even on a longshot. These are two completely different cars and this is what I like about the Mustang. It is completely different than the Turbo S. On the bonus side, this car doesn't really create envy (rather pity...look at your comment...Midlife Crisis ), which is just perfect for me. This would be a car for me and my son, a "men" thing women cannot understand. I could make a comparison with some of the fashion items women love nowadays so much but I don't want to offend any female user.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

SuzyF:

JimFlat6:

And with those kind words above......

Get it and enjoy it. 662hp and a manual transmission is fun. A friend of mine has a 72 Oldsmobile 442 W-30 that weighs the same as 3 series BMW. Originally it had 375hp/500ft lbs from its 455 cu inch engine. Since it was bored .40 over for 572 cu inches ( about 9 liters of displacement) heads done and given a full race cam, its even more fun. His neighbor who owns a 458 Ferrari keeps asking to buy it.

Okay I might have been a bit rude there 

An old muscle car is so much nicer than this Shelby.  And IMHO, the Challanger is the only modern take on these retro muscle cars that actually works visually. But of course this is all very subjective

--

Suzy

2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic    [SOLD]
2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
 

Really desirable old "muscle" cars cost a fortune. I had an offer for a classic Shelby GT500 in very good condition for almost 150k EUR. Ouch. I also don't like how classic muscle cars drive, the chassis is a joke on most of these cars and believe it or not, with the KW Stage 3 chassis and Watt link on the rear axle, the Mustang GT 500 Shelby is actually quite the track machine. Also, many of these "desirable" muscle cars have a three speed or four speed automatic. These are nice cars for collectors or real fans but not for drivers. Those who drive these cars on a regular basis usually modified them heavily. Also, from a safety point of view, classic cars have no side impact protection, airbags or whatever, classic cars are dangerous. Since I always take my son for a ride, well...nope. 

Also, the Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby has the advantage that it can be easily transformed into a Super Snake with around 850 horses. Add 20k EUR worth of ORIGINAL parts (Shelby uses the same parts for their official mods) and you're done. Want more power? Up to 1000 hp are possible. 

The new Challenger SRT Hellcat seems to be only good on straights and even then, this car cannot put the power on the road (proven by many YouTube videos).I really like how the Challenger looks but when you get close to this car and see it in person, it is a huge car. In my opinion, the Challenger is disproportional big for such a car and the Mustang looks much better in reality. See both cars side by side live and you'll understand. The Challenger looks as if it has been "blown" up. It is a very nice car on photos but when you stand next to it, no so much. 

The Mustang is not supposed to replace my Turbo S but to be a fun car for me and my son for weekends. This is actually the problem here: Since I can use it on weekends only, the Turbo S makes even less sense. So when the lease runs out, I really have to think about what car to get for weekend fun driving because lately, I barely saw a track and I usually enjoy the drives with my son and not with friends anymore. Considering the cost of a Turbo S and the one of a Shelby, well...  A Turbo S and a Shelby GT 500 however make a lot of sense from a fun point of view. I would even add a Fiat Abarth 695 Biposto to the mix, just for the fun of it. I also considered getting my old favorite Lancia Delta HF Integrale Sedici but very "good" cars cost over 40k EUR and I still remember how many issues I had with the Integrale. I doubt this changed, especially on used cars. 

At some point, I was even thinking of getting a used Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe 507 Edition, I once had a C63 AMG Coupe PP and the 507 Editions sell for interesting prices nowadays but I wanted a more "special" muscle car, something out of the ordinary, so the Mustang GT500 Shelby would have been perfect.

Bad news though: Since I didn't find an additional parking space, I have to pass on this car. My wife wasn't willing to keep her X3 outside of the garage (we have three parking spaces outside of the garage too) because it can get pretty cold in winter time and we tried and tried and tried but the garage only fits four cars. Bad luck I guess, my son is crushed, poor little fellow. He really loves this car.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

CGX car nut:

However, the prospect of a newer car with less maintenance and safety issues is much more desirable.  Those muscle cars sound like a great idea until you drive one.  There is nothing good when compared with even the lowest priced cars on the market today.  The new cars brake, steer and ride with a level of sophistication totally missing in the old cars from the 1960s and 70s.  

Exactly. Classic pony cars are fun but not really something you want to drive, more something you want to look at and listen to. 

While it is subjective between the styling of the Challenger versus the Mustang, the Mustang is a much smaller car and has a relatively continuous heritage compared with the Dodge.  Furthermore, I have higher confidence in Ford's engineering work than Chrysler's.  There are some very obvious reasons why Chrysler was teetered at the edge of insolvency for the past forty years.  

I thought the same until I got myself a Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT. It may not have the same quality/finish level as a Cayenne but it is on par with my wife's X3 (latest generation) and the car is fun to drive and seems to be reliable too (almost 8000 km and not a single real issue besides some software updates, which are coming quite often). The latest software update even changed the steering feel, it is almost as good as the Cayenne steering feel now, pretty impressive. The took away the "heaviness" but at the same time, made the steering more direct. Chrysler certainly puts more effort in their products lately, maybe it has something to do with their new European owner, Fiat but to be honest, I doubt it. Fiat is a wreck (in my opinion, letting aside Ferrari) and I actually wonder how this new ownership will work out for Chrysler on a long run. Fact is: The Jeep Grand Cherokee is one of the few US cars which seems to be competitive in Europe. I just wish they would offer more powerful Diesel engines (a must nowadays) and of course I would like to see the Hellcat engine in the Jeep. If Chrysler decides to do that, I doubt I will ever buy a Cayenne again. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

 

Funny, my wife doesn't like this car either (she likes the Jeep though). The Ford Mustang GT 500 is a pony car, a muscle car, not your ordinary sports car. No comparison with the 991 Turbo S possible, not even on a longshot. These are two completely different cars and this is what I like about the Mustang. It is completely different than the Turbo S. On the bonus side, this car doesn't really create envy (rather pity...look at your comment...Midlife Crisis ), which is just perfect for me. This would be a car for me and my son, a "men" thing women cannot understand. I could make a comparison with some of the fashion items women love nowadays so much but I don't want to offend any female user.  

Don't worry RC, I can handle it   If I make comments about the car, Im not someone that will be complaining when you make comments back.
 

RC:

Really desirable old "muscle" cars cost a fortune. I had an offer for a classic Shelby GT500 in very good condition for almost 150k EUR. Ouch. I also don't like how classic muscle cars drive, the chassis is a joke on most of these cars and believe it or not, with the KW Stage 3 chassis and Watt link on the rear axle, the Mustang GT 500 Shelby is actually quite the track machine. Also, many of these "desirable" muscle cars have a three speed or four speed automatic. These are nice cars for collectors or real fans but not for drivers. Those who drive these cars on a regular basis usually modified them heavily. Also, from a safety point of view, classic cars have no side impact protection, airbags or whatever, classic cars are dangerous. Since I always take my son for a ride, well...nope. 

Also, the Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby has the advantage that it can be easily transformed into a Super Snake with around 850 horses. Add 20k EUR worth of ORIGINAL parts (Shelby uses the same parts for their official mods) and you're done. Want more power? Up to 1000 hp are possible. 

The new Challenger SRT Hellcat seems to be only good on straights and even then, this car cannot put the power on the road (proven by many YouTube videos).I really like how the Challenger looks but when you get close to this car and see it in person, it is a huge car. In my opinion, the Challenger is disproportional big for such a car and the Mustang looks much better in reality. See both cars side by side live and you'll understand. The Challenger looks as if it has been "blown" up. It is a very nice car on photos but when you stand next to it, no so much. 

The Mustang is not supposed to replace my Turbo S but to be a fun car for me and my son for weekends. This is actually the problem here: Since I can use it on weekends only, the Turbo S makes even less sense. So when the lease runs out, I really have to think about what car to get for weekend fun driving because lately, I barely saw a track and I usually enjoy the drives with my son and not with friends anymore. Considering the cost of a Turbo S and the one of a Shelby, well...  A Turbo S and a Shelby GT 500 however make a lot of sense from a fun point of view. I would even add a Fiat Abarth 695 Biposto to the mix, just for the fun of it. I also considered getting my old favorite Lancia Delta HF Integrale Sedici but very "good" cars cost over 40k EUR and I still remember how many issues I had with the Integrale. I doubt this changed, especially on used cars. 

At some point, I was even thinking of getting a used Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe 507 Edition, I once had a C63 AMG Coupe PP and the 507 Editions sell for interesting prices nowadays but I wanted a more "special" muscle car, something out of the ordinary, so the Mustang GT500 Shelby would have been perfect.

Bad news though: Since I didn't find an additional parking space, I have to pass on this car. My wife wasn't willing to keep her X3 outside of the garage (we have three parking spaces outside of the garage too) because it can get pretty cold in winter time and we tried and tried and tried but the garage only fits four cars. Bad luck I guess, my son is crushed, poor little fellow. He really loves this car.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Now that is one hell of a car! One of my all time favourites! I love the Delta Integrale and I too have looked for one, but I'm also a little scared for their reputation on issues and the infamous Italian build quality... But damn! What a great car!

Regarding the Shelby and Challanger;
Last year we visited my father in law, who lives in California. He owns a Challenger SRT 392 and we went on a roadtrip with that car. Normally I'm not a fan of American cars in general, but I drove about 2500 miles in it and I was completely surprised. First of all it had a great manual gearbox (which I wasn't expecting from a American car), it was comfortable for 4 people+luggage and it just felt very well put together (wasn't expecting that either). His car is a 2011 model, so it still has the old dashboard, but the car had done 55000 miles and there were no rattles or anything and the car didn't have any problems so far.
On the contrary, his neigbor had a 4 month old Shelby GT500 and that car had been to the dealership several times for a leakage in the interior and some minor technical issues. I didn't drive the car myself, but I sat in the passenger seat and I got very disappointed to be honest. Dashboard squaked, driver's seat squaked.. It just didn't feel as refined as the Dodge. Yes it was very powerful and it definitely provided a smile on my face when he floored the thing, but the Challenger did that even more. With the facelift and the, IMHO, very nice looking new interior, the new challanger is one of the few american cars, I would actually like to have. The other one would be the Grand Cherokee.

Maybe I'm biased because of that experience, but somehow I just like the Dodge very much and the Ford not very much.

--

Suzy

2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic    [SOLD]
2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
 

For less than the price of a Shelby you can build a Corvette powered Boxster or 964-996 and solve all of your problems. There are companies doing this in the US. Still have a Porsche but with that big V8 sound and more hp/ torque.. Just something to think about.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3GXpKRTCIw

The weight is the same. Want a under 600hp Boxster S?  no problem. and everything works and drives right.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P67OSN2DqAE

JimFlat6:

For less than the price of a Shelby you can build a Corvette powered Boxster or 964-996 and solve all of your problems. There are companies doing this in the US. Still have a Porsche but with that big V8 sound and more hp/ torque.. Just something to think about.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3GXpKRTCIw

The weight is the same. Want a under 600hp Boxster S?  no problem. and everything works and drives right.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P67OSN2DqAE

Never seen that!  Unbelievable... Don't think it would be easy to get such a car legally on the road in Europe. Not that I'm interested though.

Suzy

2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic    [SOLD]
2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
 

JimFlat6:

For less than the price of a Shelby you can build a Corvette powered Boxster or 964-996 and solve all of your problems. There are companies doing this in the US. Still have a Porsche but with that big V8 sound and more hp/ torque.. Just something to think about.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3GXpKRTCIw

If I would do that over here, I think people wouldn't pity me, they would make fun of me. 

The weight is the same. Want a under 600hp Boxster S?  no problem. and everything works and drives right.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P67OSN2DqAE

See above.

Also you seem to forget a tiny little detail: In Germany, there is the TÜV certification and such a car would never go through. Never.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

I forgot about TUV in Germany. In Sweden they allow Volvos with Corvette V8s etc.., apparently in Germany the Car has to conform to its OEM? have E stamps on the parts or be a "old timer" registered vehicle.  But.....if you can TUV a Viper engine in a Jeep there, why not a simple Corvette V8 engine swap for a Boxster? 

FWIW, because something is American build doesn't mean it is poor quality. European's are getting arrogant and frankly annoying believing they have a monopoly on building quality fast cars.

nberry:

FWIW, because something is American build doesn't mean it is poor quality. European's are getting arrogant and frankly annoying believing they have a monopoly on building quality fast cars.

        Lets not talk about those 7yr old BMW Mercedes Audi luxury model ticking time bombs that cost ridiculous parts money to keep on the road.   Seriously Nick, Many US car power trains are more durable than European models, but the German companies seem to have the market cornered for dynamics and interiors. But they are so complex and trouble prone that their resale values are total crap. Mercedes being the worst offender!

nberry:

FWIW, because something is American build doesn't mean it is poor quality. European's are getting arrogant and frankly annoying believing they have a monopoly on building quality fast cars.

It has nothing to do with arrogance. If you look what American cars cost in some European countries, it's normal to compare them with European or Asian cars that are equally as expensive. In that comparison, the US cars simply fall behind in many ways. Panel gaps are big and not properly lined, interiors are made of cheap looking and feeling plastics, etc. the cars are simply not as refined as some (not all) European or Asian cars that are equally priced.

However.... When you look at it from an American POV, it's different.  If I take my father in law's Challenger as an example, that car costs around $50,000 in the US and it is (or was) the top of the line Challanger. Roughly the price of a Golf GTI here in Europe. That's a totally different comparison and then it isn't that bad. Just for your info... That same Dodge was EUR 110,000 ($145,000) in the Netherlands in 2011, when he bought his in America (He moved from the Netherlands to the US in that year).  A Ford Shelby GT500 was EUR 115,000 ($ 153,000) in 2012.... Now judge the car again at that pricetag!  Kinda crappy, isn't it?

--

Suzy

2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic    [SOLD]
2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
 

Why are US cars so expensive in Europe and as a result uncompetitive? Duties?