Crown

Itsme:

Right: why not parking fees?

I live in in the middle of Munich/Germany. Many cars, not enough parking lots. Last year in my neighborhood a successful business man very often parked his big sedan or SUV on the sidewalk in front of his office. That was much easier for him than to walk 200m from his underground car park. A young mother always had problems to get to the entrance of her building with her stroller for the twins. She talked to him, he said he didn’t care, his secretary would pay the fine once a month. I don’t know the laws, but even the police was not able to do more than to give him a ticket.
 

That sounds a bit far fetched. If you're parked illegally, you're parked illegally, and the police can tow it no problem.  If you parked and blocked off an exit or made it much harder to get in/out, that would be towed instantly for safety reason. Doing something like that subjects you to a world of liability with no recourse. Pretty much anything could happen to your car and you'd be SOL and your insurance might say the same thing.

Imagine blocking access to the entrance/exit if someone needed an ambulance and claimed that your constant illegal parking prevented timely medical response. Would hate to know the civil settlement, fines, and jail time in that case.

In a lot of places though, if you did that every day and with such arrogance, you'd quickly find your car vandalised. I'm not one to damage people's property, but if you parked your car illegally in front of my building door every day and made it hard to get in/out and told me something like tough shit, I'd key your car every single day, maybe accidentally smash a mirror or light, maybe leave a big dent from when i was carrying a big metal pole. The possibilities are endless.

 

I think Noone was playing a bit of devils advocate.  In the US fines like that would simple prompt a call to a lawyer who would fight the fine for half the cost.  Simple.

The problem is drivers who simply don't care about rules and the safety of others. IMHO this is a function of this world of 'strangers' we live in.  People feel like they can drive anyway they like without bothering others.  As a result we have entrusted others to enforce laws in our place - absent Police people will naturally drive like maniacs because that is the only enforcement method.  As you all know I have always advocated smaller government and civil resonsibility - I feel there should be a way for us to make our streets safer and people more friendly and respectful.  Maybe if we felt like the people around us were more like our friends and relatives - who speeds or cuts off a friend or neighbor?  Maybe we would not have as many car wrecks and deaths on the highway...  just my way of helping out. 

try this - it works world wide - even if it is just to vent your frustrations.

www.FriendlyStreets.com

I think it is not that easy to tow a car in Germany. I think the police only tows the car if you block a street or an official firefighter entrance (Feuerwehrzufahrt mit offiziellen Siegel).

I wasn’t that precise. The entrance wasn’t blocked. The sidewalk next the door wasn’t completely blocked. A pedestrian could pass, a bicycle could pass, even a woman with a normal stroller could pass. Only the mother with that wide twin stroller couldn’t pass on the sidewalk, she had to use street.

But it doesn’t matter, the problem is that people like you AND me don’t care if have to pay 10 or 20€ fine. For us probably the process to pay (if we don’t have a secretary) is probably more annoying than the money. Poorer people feel the fine much more, that is the problem.

I don’t have any personal experiences with repeated fines (every day). But I think that this kind of fine isn’t recorded. So as long as you pay you fine early nothing will happen.

Vandalism is a kind of vigilantism. When everybody solves his problems that way we would live in anarchy. No thank you.

easy_rider911:

I find it shocking and frightening that the State could punish different people for the same criminal offence differently. So a richer person pays a much bigger fine than a poorer person?

It is not only Switzerland, but also Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Lichtenstein and Croatia all have this system where a fine depends on the individuals income.

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE

2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

So we just need to have zero income, only company properties and rent cars. Sweet!

There is no try. Just do.

bluelines:

easy_rider911:

I find it shocking and frightening that the State could punish different people for the same criminal offence differently. So a richer person pays a much bigger fine than a poorer person?

It is not only Switzerland, but also Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Lichtenstein and Croatia all have this system where a fine depends on the individuals income.

 

Sure, that was exactly my point  None of those legal systems is based on English Common Law  That explains the different jurisprudential approach.

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

easy_rider911:

bluelines:

easy_rider911:

I find it shocking and frightening that the State could punish different people for the same criminal offence differently. So a richer person pays a much bigger fine than a poorer person?

It is not only Switzerland, but also Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Lichtenstein and Croatia all have this system where a fine depends on the individuals income.

 

Sure, that was exactly my point  None of those legal systems is based on English Common Law  That explains the different jurisprudential approach.

Equally, none of those run around in pompous wigs and Monty Python costumes 

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE

2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

I think whats strange about Swiss traffic law is that going 20kph over, no matter what the location, circumstances or results (correct me if I am wrong here), the government handles it as a criminal offense and not in a administrative court.

A record of a criminal conviction can have a far greater impact with many potential later repercussions than any monetary expense.

It's unreasonable. The penalty doesn't match the offense.

If they also add on other things like property confiscation, massive court fees, other fees to manage the results etc beyond just a simple fine, that is excessive and exploitative and more evil than the offense of going 20 kph over on a sunny day on a empty country road.

Who here has not gone 20kph over the limit, ever? No one unless they have never driven a car before.

Below 15km/h in inner-city or built-up areas, 20km/h outside cities and and 25km/h on highways are handled by police fines. Above are handled by an administrative court. The fine will be a bit higher, the administrative cost as high and you likely loose your license 1-3 months.  Your car will not be confiscated, you will not go to jail, etc.

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE

2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

There you go.

How is it in the US?

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE

2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

Traffic regulations and fines varies state by state.  And there is flexible decision making by the citing officer or a judge. For instance, I once got stopped for 75mph over in a 55mph  zone, the officer wrote it up to for 60 in a 55. That was exceptional.  For traffic courts in the US, typically judges can drastically reduce any fine or suspend or set aside the conviction  entirely if you can convince them to --- or if you have an attorney who can bombard them with motions of discovery that question the details of a officers training, tools and data, you can get them to drop the charge entirely if your case creates too much work for them and there are lawyers who specialize in doing that.

I advise visitors to the US to not speed excessively and its not because of any potential fine, but for their own personal safety when they are stopped. US police forces have a very militant attitude now and can likely over respond and over react at a hi speed traffic stop. Especially in major corridor areas where there is a lot of narcotics and theft activity. You might think you are just enjoying a 100mph plus quick burst of speed in your car, but the police might think you stole it or are a narco trafficker, or a drug user trying to elude them - for a normal person it could end in a shooting tragedy because of language, cultural misunderstanding or more commonly- officer over aggresivness -incompetence etc.

Those Swiss number are insane. That's like the Sharia Law of speeding law. $100/K month income would mean a fine of $25,000 for going 96mph on a highway. LOL. I'm sorry, but there is no way to spin the absurdity of that.

$400 fine for 29kph over... $25,000 for an extra 6kph. That is just retarded. Some there was actually a vote on this with the genera public? The population went to the polls and said this is what it should be?

In the US you'd get 3-4 points on your license (12 point limit before suspension or other restrictions) and a $200-300 ticket for 21mph over the speed limit. On the highway though, it's almost expected that people are driving about 10-15mph over and that is the flow of traffic. Have a clean speeding record and they might just give you a warning, a non-point violation, or just a slightly lower ticket like 10 over. Depends on the police officer.

In the US it also depends on the road, time, and city. On most highways you can do 10mph over without issue. On slower roads 5-10mph over. On side streets and residential roads, 5-7mph over is fine and the norm and even if you get pulled over some how, which is rare outside of the places you know police sit and hide, they might just give you a lesser ticket and tell you to slow down.

There is a road that is 60mph where people don't go much less than 75-80, especially rush hour, and where the police don't have time to waste writing tickets when there is real crime going on. However, the moment you cross that city line and end up in a middle class neighborhood, the police are out there writing as many tickets as they can. Huge waste of time and misplaced priorities being that crime is non-zero even in nicer places too.

I think a big difference in how we view this might be that the Swiss think these rules help keep roads safe, whereas in the US the entire population knows that speeding tickets are nothing more than a tax. No one can ever increase taxes because they'll get voted out of office, so they just collect tax in other ways.

If you drive in the US on a major road, you'll notice that probably 90% of cars are speeding. It's unheard of even in residential areas to drive the speed limit. If tickets were about safety and trying to stop speeding, they could pull over just about every car on the road, writing tickets 24 hours a day.

They don't though. They need to write X amount of tickets and try to focus on people speeding slightly more than other people, nicer cars, younger drivers. Pulling someone over for speeding in the US is like shooting fish in a barrel. It's entirely up to the police officer which car he wants to pull over because they are all speeding to some extent.

About 10 years ago I got pulled over going 150 kph in a 110 kph zone -- a 3-4 lane highway in the middle of nowhere. He pulled over a few of us at the same time, all driving the same speed in a straight line. He didn't even say anything. Didn't say slow down, or ask why I was going so fast. Didn't really say anything at all really other than ask for my papers. Just gave tickets to everyone and went back to his hidding spot when you uses his speed gun.

They don't want to get people to stop speeding. They don't want to scare you with tickets based on income because they want a lot of people to speed reasonably. Cities want to pull thousands of people over for speeding because it's a lot of easy tax money disguised as being for your own safety. You'll find some cities don't want anything other than money too. They'll waive the license points so as not to hurt your record, and just make you pay the dollar amount.

Fines have never been effective for reducing speeding and it's been often proven that roads with often higher speed limits can be safer. Want to know what's more dangerous than speed? Police hiding behind a bridges and trees. All this does is cause people going over the speed limit to slam on their brakes hoping he targeted them yet.

Having driven all over the world, the best way to increase safety in certain areas is to put speed cameras and sign notifying you of speed camera leading up to it. In France they have signs that say "speed camera 1km ahead," "500m ahead," 100m ahead." This is how you stop people from speeding in areas where safety is actually a concern. People will almost certainly slow down because you're telling them there is a machine waiting to give them a ticket with 100% guarantee they get caught.

What happens? Everyone slows down for that spot. Works flawlessly. Doesn't collect tax dollars, of course...

The vast majority of people will drive at speeds they deem safe. This is where speed limits are way behind the times. Having higher speed limits will not just mean everyone will increase their normal speeds equally as much. There is a limit and based on what you see, the limit is too low in most places. 

You Swiss actually have it easy with the law. Here where I live the Police can confiscate the car and auction it off it you go more than 30km/hr over the posted speed limit. It will be up to the discretion of the Police officer.

We had a civil forfeiture law that confiscate 'instruments of unlawful activity'. Some smart ass prosecutor successfully used that law against a motorist a few years ago and they have been doing it ever since. The intent of the laws was for more serious offence, like drugs/human/weapons trafficking and stuff. But alas it was being abused. 

Speeding limit around the world, especially on highways, has been artificially set below the speed people normal travel for one reason, write more spend tickets for more revenue. There were studies made that concluded most motorists settle on a set speed on highway that is deemed safe and efficient irrespective of whatever are posted but that speed normally is around 15-20km/hr higher than what's posted. 

Best way to increase safety on highway is not about limiting speed, but better licensing and education. Be more vigilant about keeping to the right to keep a passing lane, be more vigilant on writing tickets to people driving abnormally slower than the speed of traffic, most cities have that law but almost never was it enforced. If a driver is incapable of controlling a car at a higher speed, then he/she should not be privileged to own a license. Write tickets to passing lane hogs, write tickets to following too close, those are prime safety offences. Without people obstructing the passing lane, then there will be no more dangerous passing on the right. With proper distances between cars there won't be multi-car pileup accidents and motorists have time to react and brake on sudden events. 

Having order on a motorway is the best way to increase safety, the Germans have it right on the Autobahn, it's the safest motorway in the world and they do it at one of the highest speed in the world. 

noone1:

I think a big difference in how we view this might be that the Swiss think these rules help keep roads safe, whereas in the US the entire population knows that speeding tickets are nothing more than a tax. No one can ever increase taxes because they'll get voted out of office, so they just collect tax in other ways.

If you drive in the US on a major road, you'll notice that probably 90% of cars are speeding. It's unheard of even in residential areas to drive the speed limit. If tickets were about safety and trying to stop speeding, they could pull over just about every car on the road, writing tickets 24 hours a day.

They don't though. They need to write X amount of tickets and try to focus on people speeding slightly more than other people, nicer cars, younger drivers. Pulling someone over for speeding in the US is like shooting fish in a barrel. It's entirely up to the police officer which car he wants to pull over because they are all speeding to some extent.

About 10 years ago I got pulled over going 150 kph in a 110 kph zone -- a 3-4 lane highway in the middle of nowhere. He pulled over a few of us at the same time, all driving the same speed in a straight line. He didn't even say anything. Didn't say slow down, or ask why I was going so fast. Didn't really say anything at all really other than ask for my papers. Just gave tickets to everyone and went back to his hidding spot when you uses his speed gun.

They don't want to get people to stop speeding. They don't want to scare you with tickets based on income because they want a lot of people to speed reasonably. Cities want to pull thousands of people over for speeding because it's a lot of easy tax money disguised as being for your own safety. You'll find some cities don't want anything other than money too. They'll waive the license points so as not to hurt your record, and just make you pay the dollar amount.

Fines have never been effective for reducing speeding and it's been often proven that roads with often higher speed limits can be safer. Want to know what's more dangerous than speed? Police hiding behind a bridges and trees. All this does is cause people going over the speed limit to slam on their brakes hoping he targeted them yet.

Having driven all over the world, the best way to increase safety in certain areas is to put speed cameras and sign notifying you of speed camera leading up to it. In France they have signs that say "speed camera 1km ahead," "500m ahead," 100m ahead." This is how you stop people from speeding in areas where safety is actually a concern. People will almost certainly slow down because you're telling them there is a machine waiting to give them a ticket with 100% guarantee they get caught.

What happens? Everyone slows down for that spot. Works flawlessly. Doesn't collect tax dollars, of course...

The vast majority of people will drive at speeds they deem safe. This is where speed limits are way behind the times. Having higher speed limits will not just mean everyone will increase their normal speeds equally as much. There is a limit and based on what you see, the limit is too low in most places. 

This is all too much to digest this early in the morning 

As you allude to in your first sentence, the difference is how one views it. After reading the posts from some US members I get the feeling that speeding is the right and freedom of the citizen. It is not necessarily an offence. Hence you should not be punished or at least not much. That is why the Swiss numbers looks outrageous to you. The numbers don't bother me since I don't speed. I guess that is the difference.

The French system with warning signs, which is applied in Sweden too, is very effective for certain spots. If you want people to slow down, they will slow down. The downside is that they will speed again after the sign. I think the Swiss took a different approach with an army of mobile cameras that are moved around and hence you never feel safe from them. You simply know that it is not worth driving too fast. It does seem to work tough. It is very rarely you see anyone speed and in this case it is 10km/h more. I would say it is very much the same for the rest of Europe too. Germany is slowly getting infested with speed cameras too or the latest trick, distance cameras mounted on bridges overlooking the Autobahn. If you are too close to the car in front you get a fine. Is it creative tax? Is it preventing accidents? A bit of both I guess.

As we know, statistics are lies, but anyway... if you look road fatalities per year per 100'000 inhabitants then you have US 11.4, Canada 6.8 and Switzerland 4.2. It does seem to fit the views and laws a bit too well to be true 

Have a nice day folks and drive safe! 

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE

2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

The 2009 US Center for Disease Control figures:The surprise killer in the US is alcohol, with 80,000 deaths per year for working age people, while all ages in automobiles were 35,000 and firearms deaths of all ages were 11,078. Trending since the 90's firearm and automobile deaths have been decreasing while ownership and average speeds increased, but alcohol deaths have been going up. As more Americans die every year from alcohol consumption then terrorist attacks, wars, car crashes, gun deaths and random accidents combined we should ask why is the political chattering class so quiet when it comes to the biggest killer - liquor, but so set against raising slightly raising the Federally mandated speed limit.

bluelines:

easy_rider911:

bluelines:

easy_rider911:

I find it shocking and frightening that the State could punish different people for the same criminal offence differently. So a richer person pays a much bigger fine than a poorer person?

It is not only Switzerland, but also Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Lichtenstein and Croatia all have this system where a fine depends on the individuals income.

 

Sure, that was exactly my point  None of those legal systems is based on English Common Law  That explains the different jurisprudential approach.

Equally, none of those run around in pompous wigs and Monty Python costumes 

LOL  - nothing wrong in using wigs and gowns to remind lay people of the seriousness of legal proceedings 

The only people who pick the law of a particular canton in Switzerland as the governing law of their contracts are the Swiss people and corporate entities who obviously prefer/need to have disputes settled before Swiss national courts.

By contrast, English law is used by people all around the world ... and you know it 

Clearly, people don't mind the wigs and gowns provided they get reliable justice in their disputes being resolved 

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

Without the global impact of the principles English Law  in regards to contracts and commerce, the world be in shambles.. Even anti imperialists should thank England and the British Empire that spread it.

bluelines:

As we know, statistics are lies, but anyway... if you look road fatalities per year per 100'000 inhabitants then you have US 11.4, Canada 6.8 and Switzerland 4.2. It does seem to fit the views and laws a bit too well to be true 

And the UK, Sweden and Norway are all 3.4  And we don't have this law in the UK 

The key is driver education, not draconian enforcement 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

--

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

easy_rider911:

bluelines:

As we know, statistics are lies, but anyway... if you look road fatalities per year per 100'000 inhabitants then you have US 11.4, Canada 6.8 and Switzerland 4.2. It does seem to fit the views and laws a bit too well to be true 

And the UK, Sweden and Norway are all 3.4  And we don't have this law in the UK 

The key is driver education, not draconian enforcement 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

The law in Sweden is not much different to Switzerland when it comes to traffic offences.  Most western european countries have similar laws, including the UK.

Switzerland seem to be tougher on the tail events, but these are not significant for the statistics. These cases are outliers. I honestly don't understand the problem that non-Swiss residents have with it. Do you regularly speed and this law applies to you? I hope no one is this irresponsible. Clearly very few here have themselves, or had their loved ones, involved in a traffic accident. I think you would have a very different view then.

Anyway, the way I interpret the statistics in Wikipedia is that coutries with high standard traffic education and stricter traffic laws have less deaths in traffic.

I personally don't think it is ok to fine someone EUR 300 if they drive at twice the speed limit. At such a deliberatly excessive speed the punishment must hurt. Without considering the individuals financial situation I am not sure how you otherwise do it? I assume that is why so many countries in Europe apply income/wealth driven fines.

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE

2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

I fully agree that this law does not solve the problem and is way over the top . You actually are treated worst if speeding then drunk driving   There has been a public movement asking for stronger sanctions for road rage etc... and this is the result .  At the end, road rage will still continue, and people like Cram end up in big troubles for a '' crime '' that was not one . 

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

easy_rider911:

...and we don't have this law in the UK 

 

Well 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10887161/Maximum-motorway-speeding-fine-set-to-rocket-to-10000.html

"The maximum fine for speeding on the motorway is to be quadrupled to £10,000 as part of sweeping reforms..."

"For the first time magistrates will also get the power to impose unlimited fines for more serious offences..."

It seems the UK law is adopting to modern times. I read the wig is going away too

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE

2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

Gnil:

SuzyF:

Next time try to put on your innocent face RC  

I've never experienced things like that in Switzerland to be honest. Not even at the border. 

 

 

RC,  you have mentioned those incidents a few times, but I, like Suzy, did not have any of these kind of problems in the 29 years I have been driving in Switzerland as well as crossing the border . Either you have bad luck or you attract them for I don't know what reason ??  Or you don't know how to talk to them ?? 

Funny, I escaped several police "encounters" in Italy and even one in Austria just by talking (and being very apologetic and nice) but in Switzerland...well...the police officers were very aggressive. Bad luck? Maybe. I won't forget that border incident though where the customs officer made me sit in my car at an outside temperature of almost 30°C and without allowing me to turn on the engine or to exit the car. 

As for speed traps in the mountains......... please all look at  RC's Bike threat  .  That is exactly why they trap in the mountains ! Too many people killed on motorbike while speeding . ( and again, I don't defend that , but that's why they put them ) .  So, on one hand the same people complain about bikes driving like nut cases in twistees and on the other hand are offended when cops try to put a stop to that by trapping .......

As I mentioned before, I was driving very civilized (OK, mostly because I spotted the police car) and they still went after me.

Actually my worst time spend with ' cops ' or similar was at the German border, coming from Holland . What a nightmare I had to go trough and the Germans were dreadful !! Now I will not generalize ..... as it probably could happen in any country .

Ever heard of drugs? Especially those with foreign license plates are suspects because many foreigners came to Holland just to buy pot. 

Best police experience so far: Romania. I just joke around, pay the bribe and I'm done. No fuss, no hassle and pretty cheap.  Of course some German tourists start to argue, something they don't like at all.

I also had a nice experience in France (but apparently I was lucky): A police car passed me (when I was driving 160 kph or so on a highway close to Nice/Monaco, don't remember the exact speed anymore but there was no traffic and three or four lanes on each direction) and they slowed me down to 130 kph but didn't stop me and when they exited the highway after 10 km or so, they waved goodbye. Was pretty cool, I was in my 997 Carrera S with the wife and kids.

Actually, I like driving in France on the highway: Drivers always make room, they do not block the left lane. Italians usually start to accelerate in the hope that you are not going to follow them and have a hard time moving to the right when they realize that you keep up their speed.  Germans usually block you for at least a couple of kilometers and in Austria, I usually do not speed because of their speeding law (the police officer can "estimate" your speed, he doesn't have to prove it).

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Gnil:

You actually are treated worst if speeding then drunk driving 

This is a strange one. Being from Sweden with a 0.2 promille limit the Swiss 0.5 seem very generous. A few years back I think it was even at 0.8? This needs to be tougher and is unproportional to the speeding fines.

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE

2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

bluelines:

Gnil:

You actually are treated worst if speeding then drunk driving 

 

here what i received today for having Blow wind for 6 seconds and over take a car.i have to do a spychological expertise for aptitude to drive, this will last 3 hours and cost me 1000.- swiss francs. Auch as Gnill said, i should have drived drunk or i even should have shot someone. would have been less rude. let's face it and accept it but...... as i told myself coming back from 30 km of mountain bike in the forest. No speed limit, no signal, no flash lites. just birds, dear, horse etc.... Maybe law in the forest will also soon been introduce

anyway it's not everyday easy to deal with it, especially when you see guys doing really some stupid thing on the road and that you tell yourself. why there, at this moment and for me. it's what we call fatality.

--

Audi TT, Cayenne S, Go kart Birrel, John Deer

bluelines:

The law in Sweden is not much different to Switzerland when it comes to traffic offences.  Most western european countries have similar laws, including the UK.

Switzerland seem to be tougher on the tail events, but these are not significant for the statistics. These cases are outliers. I honestly don't understand the problem that non-Swiss residents have with it. Do you regularly speed and this law applies to you? I hope no one is this irresponsible. Clearly very few here have themselves, or had their loved ones, involved in a traffic accident. I think you would have a very different view then.

That is exactly the reason why I get angry when I read comments like noone1 made and I apologize to noone1 for that. Both my father and brother were killed by someone who was drunk and was driving over 100km/h in a 30km/h zone. They had no chance to survive.

i like fast cars and everything that has to do with speed, but what I don't like is people that are irresponsible and think they can do anything they want on the road. 7 out of 10 times these kind of people are rich people, because they don't care about getting a fine. Often they don't even care when their license is taken. That's where the confiscation of a car can be a good thing, because that hurts more than taking a license. I think the Swiss system is perfect when it comes to speeding. Only drunk driving needs to be penalized a lot more IMO. 

Suzy

2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic    [SOLD]
2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
 

Cram:

bluelines:

Gnil:

You actually are treated worst if speeding then drunk driving 

 

here what i received today for having Blow wind for 6 seconds and over take a car.i have to do a spychological expertise for aptitude to drive, this will last 3 hours and cost me 1000.- swiss francs. Auch as Gnill said, i should have drived drunk or i even should have shot someone. would have been less rude. let's face it and accept it but...... as i told myself coming back from 30 km of mountain bike in the forest. No speed limit, no signal, no flash lites. just birds, dear, horse etc.... Maybe law in the forest will also soon been introduce

anyway it's not everyday easy to deal with it, especially when you see guys doing really some stupid thing on the road and that you tell yourself. why there, at this moment and for me. it's what we call fatality.

 

--

Audi TT, Cayenne S, Go kart Birrel, John Deer

Incidents and accidents happen every day to all of us whether we are responsible or not. 

We already have a law against mountain biking here in Zürich  No downhill on the pedestrian trails.

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE

2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

bluelines:

easy_rider911:

...and we don't have this law in the UK 

 

Well 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10887161/Maximum-motorway-speeding-fine-set-to-rocket-to-10000.html

"The maximum fine for speeding on the motorway is to be quadrupled to £10,000 as part of sweeping reforms..."

"For the first time magistrates will also get the power to impose unlimited fines for more serious offences..."

It seems the UK law is adopting to modern times. I read the wig is going away too

A little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing 

Every country tends to have 'punishment inflation' as politicians seek to gain votes by appearing to be tougher on crime.

However, the issue is not that motorway fines in the UK are going up - since they will go up for everyone (i.e. everyone will still be treated equally by the law) so there will not be different punishment for richer people. The higher fines will reflect the degree of excessive speed.

By contrast, the issue discussed here is that cars in Switzerland can be confiscated (which attacks a person's unique property rather than a fungible asset like money) and that fines in Switzerland are calculated according to an offender's assets and will therefore vary from person to person.

By the way, magistrates only hear less serious cases in Magistrates Courts whereas Crown Courts hear more serious criminal cases so I would find it very strange for magistrates to get the power to impose unlimited fines. One should not treat what journalists write as being gospel since they are not expert in the law. One should wait till the legislation is actually passed, then one can see what the real situation is.

People have been talking about whether wigs should be retained for years ... I'll believe it when I see it 

Modern times? You should come to London and see for yourself - it's now the premier city in the World, bar none 

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997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

bluelines:

I honestly don't understand the problem that non-Swiss residents have with it. Do you regularly speed and this law applies to you? I hope no one is this irresponsible.

Clearly very few here have themselves, or had their loved ones, involved in a traffic accident. I think you would have a very different view then.

Anyway, the way I interpret the statistics in Wikipedia is that coutries with high standard traffic education and stricter traffic laws have less deaths in traffic.

The point is not whether I am at risk of this punishment being applied to me. It is that it can be applied to someone, not just theoretically, but in practice. So having laws on the statute book is what matters.

As for accidents, while the victims and their families no doubt suffer terribly, emotion should never determine how the law is developed. It always makes for bad laws.

I myself said above that "the key is driver education, not draconian enforcement "

Anyway, at the end of the day, what the Swiss decide should be law in their country is up to them - I just don't agree with it from a jurisprudential perspective.

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997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red