Crown

Gnil thanks for coming by here, will see you closer...

Here is a video of one session yesterday. 

http://youtu.be/AtUF8p4JqP0

Phil any impressions between pre engine replacement and now?

BTW, excellent driving!

philgva:

Gnil thanks for coming by here, will see you closer...

Here is a video of one session yesterday. 

http://youtu.be/AtUF8p4JqP0

Phil, it was great meeting !   Love the video..... specially the fight with the McLaren . And you have perfect braking skills 

Got back today . I miss the track !!!  

I will post a few photos of the event in another thread . 

--

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

really great to see these cars back on the track

Deacon

Those were some really smooth laps. Very professional.

Gnil:

Carlos from Spain:

watt:

Gnil,

are you saying a facelift for the 991 could come next year? Thanks watt

For the Carrera definately next year (came out second half of 2011)... my guess is the 991.2 Carrera should hit the assmebly line in zuffenhousen around summer 

--

watt : there is no official announcement , but all indicates the above .

Wow,

thanks guys, I'm surprised its so soon, with the gt3 problems, i expected this to be delayed

Hi, well what to say, that was a great weekend. Let me start with the bad news. First session got a stone thru the inside of the car into the radiator, front left. That was bad luck as Porsche did send new parts with the inside protection. I do not know why the hell they did not did put the inside protection at the first start. Anyhow, this will be replaced under warranty. The local assistance put some repair liquid into the system which seal the hole for a day then I had another smaller leak and we put additional liquid. Then on the return back home the hole became larger and had to stop 5 times to put additional coolant. Anyhow, that we bad timing as I had the last car with the parts to be replaced.

Now the good news, what to say, the car  was great and no issue with session running 30-40mn. My new chassis setup was perfect and actually my friends will copy my setup. Tires, I had the Trofeo R which were great for the full two days. With those tires you really need to be at max 2.1 bars on the 4 wheels. On top of that both days were extremely hot, track temperature was about 50 C.

Engine wise I really could not tell a difference but it was amazing. I tried both manual and with the Sport. To be honest the auto with Sport is much better. Sometime with the manual shifting, the gears were changed upward for no reason.

Breaks, well here the Pagid, brake lines and Castrol RS was just amazing, 

Gnil, well both the McLaren and 991 Turbo S where extremely fast on the straight line, I was losing at least 50m on the 3 straight but in the cornering, the GT3 with the new chassis setup and break, catch up fast. You know Paul Ricard is a track for powerful cars. I think other like Dijon or Le Mans will be slightly different. Anyhow as you have seen, we had lot of fun with the friends. Looking forward seeing you again, hopefully in the RS...

Send me the link for the photo.

Take care.

philgva:

Gnil thanks for coming by here, will see you closer...

Here is a video of one session yesterday. 

http://youtu.be/AtUF8p4JqP0

Philgva, thanks for sharing the video. Great Driving .

Would you mind sharing your suspension setup with us.

Also, what brake option do you have on your car; steels or Pccbs ?? Any feedback on their track performance would be appreciated..

How does the Trofeo Rs compare to the Cups ??

Peter

Hi, sure with pleasure. So front camber I have two spacers and for the rear only one. I don't have the exact measurement as we did not take it but recall seen the spacers. Anti-sway bar are both at the most rigid mark, the inside one. The standard is in the middle. Brake wise I have the steel option the PCCB is not a good option for track. I had the Pagid RS29 yellow as well as brake lines from Goodridge made for me. Now you might find some on the market. The brake liquid is the Castrol RS. The brKe and chassis were just perfect. Tires now...so I had last December the same track and really did not like the Michelin, actually few guys in my group were not that happy, they may last a bit longer than Pirelli but who cares after two days you can get ride of both. A friend had done 3 more session in the first day and had to change his front Michelin as well as swapping after each session the left and right. I think that his geometry was not as good as mine. Feeling wise the Trofeo R as very progressive compare to the Michelin which to me are a bit less predictable. I will continue to ride the Pirelli and maybe try down the road the Dunlop which I have not seen on a GT3 yet. Looking at the tires after two days and 8 sessions ranging between 30-40 MN they are still ok for another one. Front pads are at 50% while the rear one at 80%. Also after the right day I had the brake fluid check and no air in the system. Sofar so good...

One thing I have learn is that with the rear  wheels moving you don't need necessarily cut trajectories as before, the change in direction can be much smoother and with the chassis and sticky Trofeo it is like glue... One last thing the Trofeo do not like been above 2.1-2.2 bars on the 4 wheels. Also the track was really super hot hence the pressure control being important.

philgva:

Hi, sure with pleasure. So front camber I have two spacers and for the rear only one. I don't have the exact measurement as we did not take it but recall seen the spacers. Anti-sway bar are both at the most rigid mark, the inside one. The standard is in the middle. Brake wise I have the steel option the PCCB is not a good option for track. I had the Pagid RS29 yellow as well as brake lines from Goodridge made for me. Now you might find some on the market. The brake liquid is the Castrol RS. The brKe and chassis were just perfect. Tires now...so I had last December the same track and really did not like the Michelin, actually few guys in my group were not that happy, they may last a bit longer than Pirelli but who cares after two days you can get ride of both. A friend had done 3 more session in the first day and had to change his front Michelin as well as swapping after each session the left and right. I think that his geometry was not as good as mine. Feeling wise the Trofeo R as very progressive compare to the Michelin which to me are a bit less predictable. I will continue to ride the Pirelli and maybe try down the road the Dunlop which I have not seen on a GT3 yet. Looking at the tires after two days and 8 sessions ranging between 30-40 MN they are still ok for another one. Front pads are at 50% while the rear one at 80%. Also after the right day I had the brake fluid check and no air in the system. Sofar so good...

One thing I have learn is that with the rear  wheels moving you don't need necessarily cut trajectories as before, the change in direction can be much smoother and with the chassis and sticky Trofeo it is like glue... One last thing the Trofeo do not like been above 2.1-2.2 bars on the 4 wheels. Also the track was really super hot hence the pressure control being important.

Philgva, thanks for your feedback.

I also have my 991 GT3 back and I did 3 track days (Magny-Cours and Le Mans).
The auto is fantastic on track (not so much on open road IMO)! I also own a 458 Speciale and my lap times are nearly the same!!

Some questions for you:
- engine oil: I had to refill the engine oil at the end of each track day, did you experience the same?
- Manual versus Sport: I do not get your point... In Manual, you control the gear shift... Are you talking about the Automatic mode?
- tires: I am happy with the Cup 2 (they are also on the 458 Speciale), but I have not tried the Trofeo R (I tried the very first Trofeo but they were dead after 1 track day!). Because the Trofeo R are not officially advised by Porsche, are you not concerned about the warranty?
- after 3 track days, my front tires are well used... and the front pads also! rear are OK
- radiator protections: like you, my car does not have them yet... weird
- Dijon / Le Mans versus Castellet: do you suggest that the 991 GT3 could be faster than 12C/650S/458 Speciale on those tracks?
 

philgva:

Hi, sure with pleasure. So front camber I have two spacers and for the rear only one. I don't have the exact measurement as we did not take it but recall seen the spacers. Anti-sway bar are both at the most rigid mark, the inside one. The standard is in the middle. Brake wise I have the steel option the PCCB is not a good option for track. I had the Pagid RS29 yellow as well as brake lines from Goodridge made for me. Now you might find some on the market. The brake liquid is the Castrol RS. The brKe and chassis were just perfect. Tires now...so I had last December the same track and really did not like the Michelin, actually few guys in my group were not that happy, they may last a bit longer than Pirelli but who cares after two days you can get ride of both. A friend had done 3 more session in the first day and had to change his front Michelin as well as swapping after each session the left and right. I think that his geometry was not as good as mine. Feeling wise the Trofeo R as very progressive compare to the Michelin which to me are a bit less predictable. I will continue to ride the Pirelli and maybe try down the road the Dunlop which I have not seen on a GT3 yet. Looking at the tires after two days and 8 sessions ranging between 30-40 MN they are still ok for another one. Front pads are at 50% while the rear one at 80%. Also after the right day I had the brake fluid check and no air in the system. Sofar so good...

One thing I have learn is that with the rear  wheels moving you don't need necessarily cut trajectories as before, the change in direction can be much smoother and with the chassis and sticky Trofeo it is like glue... One last thing the Trofeo do not like been above 2.1-2.2 bars on the 4 wheels. Also the track was really super hot hence the pressure control being important.

Thanks for the feedback Philgva. I hope you continue to post on your track exploits. Perhaps the next time you do an alignment, you can get and post the specs.....You guys are very lucky to have such great tracks to run on...

Peter

Hi igirl,

I am planning to go with friend I think July 23 to  Magny Cours could be nice to meet there...let's IM. I saw a Spaciale really beautiful. On your questions

oil - this is normal I had to refill half a liter other friend a bit more, this is normal until 5000km

gear- I preferred the automatic in sport as with the manual sometime on 1-2 turns it changed by itself 1-2 gears up, weird, don't know why. Leaving auto also prevent high rev in downshift. Also in auto I was changing 1-2 gears so in a nutshell auto is better as you can still adjust the gear when needed and prevent downshift

Tires, I think it depends how on drive, I really like the Trofeo R. On the warranty, I had Porsche installing them and the head of the garage had put the same on his turbo S. Also Pirelli in Switzerland is working with the Porsche clubs to provide those and undercut Michelin for Dijon. Will see but the garage told me no issue

Brake are fantastic clearly the new pagid, brake line and fluids are perfect 

Radiaotr- that was really bad luck but your center should have received now the protection so would suggest you get them install before next track, take 30mn

Track- For Dijon and Le Mans which are track with lost of turns, I think the GT3 will old at at least 12C. Don't know about the Speciale and 650 but they are very quick. I was losing 50m on straight vs 12C which is less powerful than Speciale and 650. I think you need to compare with same driver and you have a good example. Anyhow all 4 are great. The turbo S 991 is also very fast but had problem with turbo manifold 3 times and was doing only 4 laps before retiring

hopefully we can meet at one track and see the difference...

PRL 1 soon you will enjoy. I will ask the guy to measure as the car is back at the center 

philgva:

Gnil, well both the McLaren and 991 Turbo S where extremely fast on the straight line, I was losing at least 50m on the 3 straight but in the cornering, the GT3 with the new chassis setup and break, catch up fast. You know Paul Ricard is a track for powerful cars. I think other like Dijon or Le Mans will be slightly different. Anyhow as you have seen, we had lot of fun with the friends. Looking forward seeing you again, hopefully in the RS...

Send me the link for the photo.

Take care.

 

In those straight lines only power counts .....  But what finally counts the most is to know the GT3 is better at breaking and in the curbs !

Here is the link :

http://www.rennteam.com/forum/page1.html

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

igirl:

 

I also have my 991 GT3 back and I did 3 track days (Magny-Cours and Le Mans).
The auto is fantastic on track (not so much on open road IMO)! I also own a 458 Speciale and my lap times are nearly the same!!

 

Could you develop the differences between both cars , as coming from the same driver, it makes it  so more interesting .

What are the plus and minus vs each other  for the GT3 and Speciale on the track ? And you say your lap times are nearly identical on both cars, but which is faster ? 

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Gnil:

igirl:

 

I also have my 991 GT3 back and I did 3 track days (Magny-Cours and Le Mans).
The auto is fantastic on track (not so much on open road IMO)! I also own a 458 Speciale and my lap times are nearly the same!!

 

Could you develop the differences between both cars , as coming from the same driver, it makes it  so more interesting .

What are the plus and minus vs each other  for the GT3 and Speciale on the track ? And you say your lap times are nearly identical on both cars, but which is faster ? 

This is what I have posted on May 19th:

So yes, I am one of the lucky owners who get his 991 GT3 back!
And I have spent 2 days on track (Magny-Cours) with it. 
For info, I have driven 1.600 km with the old engine but no track day.

Here are some personal feelings:
- the new engine does not feel different from the old one
- a new blue icon appears at start up if the engine is cold (I was very surprised at the beginning, I thought it was a bug!)
- sport exhaust mode: with the old engine, you had to rev higher than 5.000 rpm to hear the difference; now, since the very beginning, you can notice the difference! nice
- RWS: what I have noticed is now the car changes direction immediately, since the first degrees, more noticeable than before
- on road, the car is nice but not the best choice for everyday use (I prefer my 458 Speciale)
- on track, it is a completely different animal! what a car!! gear changes are awesome, really! the engine sound after 5.000 rpm is very nice and "mechanical" (I still prefer the 458 Speciale sound)
- think about it: on the same track, I do a complete lap in 1"55 with my 458 Speciale. With the 991 GT3? ... 1"56! !! Yes, just a difference of 1 sec! With a car that has 130hp less and costs 100 KE less! 

I love that GT3. More each day.
I do not really enjoy to drive it on open roads, I "hate" the lack of torque before 5.000 rpm (I even prefer my M3 CRT for everyday use). A Porsche technical guy told me that I will have a different feeling after 3.000 km... We will see.
But when you drive on track... Oh my god! The car is so so stable, the grip is insane!!

Mo. I agree the depreciation curve will possibly be different in your market as its a % function of the value of the car. Only one line on our matrix covers this but it is a consideration that may vary in $$$ value form market to market.

The biggest single issue is "diminuative value"

This may help answer d997h questions too.

991 GT3 owners who already own the car (MY2014) will soon own a car with a replacement engine. All orders in PAGs system that are V250 or below have been stopped and will now be produced as MY2015 cars with the improved engine installed before they leave the factory.

Apart from 4 months insurance, depreciation and lost warranty, tracker fees and registration etc that existing MY2014 owners will have lost by the time they can drive their car again there is also the issue that when they sell their cars they could be in for a rude surprise. Why would a buyer 2 years time prefer a MY2014 car with different engine number to original registration documents and the story and the dramas on the internet vs a MY2015 car without these issues assuming the price to be similar?

To be fair for most it is the way they have been treated during this debacle. Many lost customers for Porsche.

MO. if you get your 24K then please let us know here as I suspect that will be the highest compensation yet recieved by any client worldwide including Germany and UAE. Good luck with your negotiations!

weekships:

[...] Why would a buyer 2 years time prefer a MY2014 car with different engine number to original registration documents and the story and the dramas on the internet vs a MY2015 car without these issues assuming the price to be similar?

Certainly, time will tell...though, I think that the ordinary buyer for a used GT3 is usually -say- well informed about the very car he/she looks at. I mean, in terms of quantity the GT3 is quite a niche model compared to an "ordinary" base carrera. When I speak to my dealer about the GT3s of his customer base, he is usually well informed about what this owner does with its car. From the guy who returns a leased GT3 after 3 years with burgundy-red-brake-calipers and more or less worn-out suspension to the guy who uses his car on sunny weekends only for some cruising - there is always a kind of story to each and every car. Therefore, I assume that a guy who wants to make a decision on a MY2014 vs. a MY2015 will bring more factors to the equation - at least, I would...

As my driving trainings start in July only, I am already looking forward to seeing the 991 GT3 on the track...

I actually got 22k already back into my bank account so are my other friends, thanks to the center.. Also the engine is being match to the car and it will not appear as a replacement engine. People will know anyway but technically all papers will be matched. Now the car with one year extra warranty, is covered until 2019. Yes in Switzerland we have a standard 4 year..but we pay a bit more the car. I had already discussion on the resale value in 5 years with the center. So basically if the car has less than 50k in 5 years it will still worth 80-90k. When you tKe the net price 194k less indemnities real cost of the car is 172k so give or take 50% devaluation. Now if the RS come with a turbo charge, the 991 GT3 might keep a bit more value with an atom engine to 9000rpm. Time will tell, but as far as I am concerned and also my friend we all agree that it is the best car we have driven. We all have a big smile...at the end you can have a more powerful car but this 991 GT3 brings so much emotion and I think apart from a 458 speciale it is difficult to beat.

philgva:

 Time will tell, but as far as I am concerned and also my friend we all agree that it is the best car we have driven. We all have a big smile...at the end you can have a more powerful car but this 991 GT3 brings so much emotion and I think apart from a 458 speciale it is difficult to beat.

.

What are you guys getting regarding compensation? 

igirl:

What are the plus and minus vs each other  for the GT3 and Speciale 

- on road, the car is nice but not the best choice for everyday use (I prefer my 458 Speciale)


I love that GT3. More each day.
I do not really enjoy to drive it on open roads, I "hate" the lack of torque before 5.000 rpm (I even prefer my M3 CRT for everyday use). A Porsche technical guy told me that I will have a different feeling after 3.000 km... We will see.
But when you drive on track... Oh my god! The car is so so stable, the grip is insane!!

Igirl,

please comment further on why you prefer the. speciale on the road? Im presuming part is the lower gearing which strads and scuds had, continued to be canyon and mountain perfect in the speciale, whilst gt3 iis still geared too high for such.

thanks for your input. I ask as my speciale is ordered, i rarely track, and im debating whether to order A 2015 gt3 which would rarely see the track.  Thanks

Switzerland got 225frs  per so for me total, 22k already paid by Porsche, then add 1 year extension and a free set of tires. To be honest we were very well treated and the center made a wonderful customer services. Note it still have 8'of the 20 GT3 sold that are still awaiting for an engine. 

watt:

Im presuming part is the lower gearing which strads and scuds had, continued to be canyon and mountain perfect in the speciale, whilst gt3 iis still geared too high for such. 

GT3 gearing is pretty close to perfect.  They spaced 7 gears between 0 and top speed pretty well.  With a 9k redline, it's probably the best gearing ever to be found in a roadgoing 911.  I think the difference would be the Speciale's extra torque from the larger 700cc of displacement (working with similar gearing as the GT3).

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

watt:

igirl:

What are the plus and minus vs each other  for the GT3 and Speciale 

- on road, the car is nice but not the best choice for everyday use (I prefer my 458 Speciale)


I love that GT3. More each day.
I do not really enjoy to drive it on open roads, I "hate" the lack of torque before 5.000 rpm (I even prefer my M3 CRT for everyday use). A Porsche technical guy told me that I will have a different feeling after 3.000 km... We will see.
But when you drive on track... Oh my god! The car is so so stable, the grip is insane!!

Igirl,

please comment further on why you prefer the. speciale on the road? Im presuming part is the lower gearing which strads and scuds had, continued to be canyon and mountain perfect in the speciale, whilst gt3 iis still geared too high for such.

thanks for your input. I ask as my speciale is ordered, i rarely track, and im debating whether to order A 2015 gt3 which would rarely see the track.  Thanks

Ok. On ROAD (because my comments would be different for track use):

- 991 GT3: suspensions are a little bit too hard IMO (even in "Comfort / Normal" mode), the feeling of the steering wheel is not perfect IMO, the engine is not so powerful under 5000 rpm, the engine noise is just ok under 5000 rpm, not parking sensors, rear visibility is difficult...
Audio sound is quite good, GPS too.

- 458 Speciale: even at low speed, the car delivers lots of sensations (racing car feelings), quite comfortable, engine sound is wonderful, you can really feel the power of the engine, parking sensors really help, the car is not too low so you can easily circulate in town...
Audio sound is quite bad, GPS too. :p

Last thing: in Normal mode, both cars can perfectly manage the gear changes. In Sport / Racing mode, the 458 Speciale gear box seems to be clever. The 991 GT3 one seems to be too "exotic" (the engine stays long time at high revs... in the meantime, this 991 GT3 only and really works only in the highest revs!).

I have two friends with BOTH 458SP and 991 GT3.

They say the 458 is the better road car due to the torque (and its a very special place to be with that great sounding V8 out back and lottsa carbon and a real "race car feel").

They say on the track the 991 GT3 is probably the more precise car (more immediate response and turn in, more chuckable etc). For the track many feel the 991 GT3 is the better tool but to be fair that is also tempered with the fact its half the value if something goes wrong, the 458SP brakes are probably better (carbon standard) but the running costs likely much higher over time (tracking a 458SP hard will need a reasonable budget one assumes). In terms of lap times the two owners I know were both suprised at how close the 991 GT3 is out of the box compared to the 458SP out of the box. Less than 1.0s on a short (2-3 mile) track - probably more for longer tracks with bigger straights (for example Ring time for 458SP will be quicker by 10s+ than 991 GT3 etc). I havent read of anyone bettering a 458SP time on the track with a 991 GT3, that being said the delta is very small and that has suprised many owners with both who not only point to the value difference but also the fact the 458 SP on paper (power to weight, mid engineered chassis, massive brakes etc) should be by fat the quicker car....

In my mind there is no doubt if money were no object and I could only have one it would be 458 SP (and Im a die hard Porsche nut). That said for my budget and application the 991 GT3 on comparison to 458 SP in dynamic and handling terms presents very well and Im very happy...

Regarding Ring time 458 Speciale is only marginally faster then 991 GT3. And difference is really marginal as you will see soon in SA...

On a little side note: There are tons of only slightly used 991 GT3 available at German dealers right now. I suspect that some customers were p.ss.d and returned their cars. Dealers are eager to sell them as fast as possible, so a good deal could be made. Just saying...if someone is interested.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

hmm, the porsche used car search gives me 8 cars ... would this many (or tons as you say) ?

I mean, Porsche has significantly changed the way dealers can or have to order new cars - a couple of years ago you would not have found any new GT3 or Turbo at a dealer... just saying ...