Crown

reginos:

Other things being equal (same brand, same engine size and output, same price) would a 2 seater front engined be chosen over a mid engined one? I doubt it.

Even magnificent F12 the epitome of this configuration, would have been obscured by an imaginary ME V12 Ferrari , selling at the same price.

+1

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE

2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

reginos:

Even magnificent F12 the epitome of this configuration, would have been obscured by an imaginary ME V12 Ferrari , selling at the same price.

--

"Form follows function"

In my humble opinion, I beg to differ since history showed otherwise.   Ferrari used to sell ME V12 car (512 BB, Testarossa) only for Montezemolo to reverse this decision and go back to the  front mid-engine layout from the 550 Maranello onwards.  There must be some technical (i.e. besides historical) reasons why Ferrari management favored the front mid-engine layout over the rear mid-engine layout then, as far as V12 are concerned.

Also, comparison of Aventador vs F12 shows that both layouts can easily compete with each other.

Ziggy:

reginos:

Even magnificent F12 the epitome of this configuration, would have been obscured by an imaginary ME V12 Ferrari , selling at the same price.

--

"Form follows function"

In my humble opinion, I beg to differ since history showed otherwise.   Ferrari used to sell ME V12 car (512 BB, Testarossa) only for Montezemolo to reverse this decision and go back to the  front mid-engine layout from the 550 Maranello onwards.  There must be some technical (i.e. besides historical) reasons why Ferrari management favored the front mid-engine layout over the rear mid-engine layout then, as far as V12 are concerned.

Also, comparison of Aventador vs F12 shows that both layouts can easily compete with each other.

The two models you mention were Flat 12, for the sake of accuracy. The engine and gearbox packaging were very tight and problematic (the BB had the gearbox on top of the engine, not sure about the TT) and maintenance was engine-out expensive.

I don't know why LdiM decided against this layout, but I suspect it could be reasons of cost and practicality. Additionally, it could be for marketing reasons because they reserved the 12 cylinder ME layout for their hypercars.

Besides performance, at this level the ME cars offer drama and extravagance that no FE can offer. Sonny Crockett for example, wouldn't look so good if he swap his Testarossa for a Maranello

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"Form follows function"

He looked ok in a Daytona Spider

reginos:

Ziggy:

reginos:

Even magnificent F12 the epitome of this configuration, would have been obscured by an imaginary ME V12 Ferrari , selling at the same price.

--

"Form follows function"

In my humble opinion, I beg to differ since history showed otherwise.   Ferrari used to sell ME V12 car (512 BB, Testarossa) only for Montezemolo to reverse this decision and go back to the  front mid-engine layout from the 550 Maranello onwards.  There must be some technical (i.e. besides historical) reasons why Ferrari management favored the front mid-engine layout over the rear mid-engine layout then, as far as V12 are concerned.

Also, comparison of Aventador vs F12 shows that both layouts can easily compete with each other.

The two models you mention were Flat 12, for the sake of accuracy. The engine and gearbox packaging were very tight and problematic (the BB had the gearbox on top of the engine, not sure about the TT) and maintenance was engine-out expensive.

I don't know why LdiM decided against this layout, but I suspect it could be reasons of cost and practicality. Additionally, it could be for marketing reasons because they reserved the 12 cylinder ME layout for their hypercars.

Besides performance, at this level the ME cars offer drama and extravagance that no FE can offer. Sonny Crockett for example, wouldn't look so good if he swap his Testarossa for a Maranello

--

"Form follows function"

Thanks for the correction, even though it does not change my rationale.

Well sorted front engine car can easily be better to drive than a bad mid engine

Mercedes probably thinks front engine is better suited to their customers

I am a huge fan of the SLS despite not liking any other Mercedes, but I don't think of it as a 458/R8/!2C/DB9/Gallardo...alternative

Those are all toys for special occasions, while the SLS is a damn good car for a lot of long distance driving

Would be even better with normal doors

I want to see MB build something staggeringly unique instead of just another lackluster trope.

The original SLR was staggeringly advanced for its day, the SL230 Pagoda was a artistic triumph in its time, the C111 was way beyond other supercar prototypes of its era.  Since then, just excuse after excuse from their design and engineering departments.

Mid-engine cars look cooler typically, but they definitely aren't the only game in town performance-wise. How come Corvettes destroy everything every generation and for relatively peanuts? GTR and Vipers running circles around Ferraris, Porsches, and Lamborghinis as well.

Also, if you watch racing where cars are supposed to be on a level playing field, Corvette and AM do very well, and most cars regardless of where the engine is, are with in seconds or fractions of a second from one another.

What makes mid-engine more exciting is the looks the layout tends to accommodate. I really don't think there is much evidence that mid-engine is the superior layout.

noone1:

How come Corvettes destroy everything every generation and for relatively peanuts? GTR and Vipers running circles around Ferraris, Porsches, and Lamborghinis as well.

Because the American cars typically have double the displacement.

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

The layout, weight balance, CG and suspension geometry of a corvette or viper race car is way different from their  production cars. Also a  Corvette V8 race engine delivered to your door in the US is under 20K. How much is a Porsche race engine from Porsche Motorsports?

Chevy/Viper street cars are really just sunny weather machines. On a hot day both smell like a new sailboat inside. On a cold day forget getting any adhesion from their tires and if its raining do not take the Viper out at all..

noone1:

I really don't think there is much evidence that mid-engine is the superior layout.

All top racing series use ME cars. Also within a racing series the top classes (LMP) are always ME.

Front engined racing cars have been abandoned since the 1950s, except from the GT production based racers. I don't think this was done for nothing.

Also all the hyper performance cars are ME from the F1, CGT, Enzo, the various Lamborghinis and now the three current ones. I don't  think manufacturers do it for the style alone.

"Form follows function"

i think that MB are aiming at GT owners more than full-on sports car owners. if as a byproduct they manage to make it a great Performer than that is more of a Bonus imo.

the sls is a very cool car. i do not regard it in the sense of supercar track Performer. more of a cool street-car that also handles very sports-car like.

the 6.2 l NA engine surely makes it a keeper as the days of such engines are over.

i even regard my C63 as a keeper for just that reason....even if it will look like an outdated sedan !

reginos:

noone1:

I really don't think there is much evidence that mid-engine is the superior layout.

All top racing series use ME cars. Also within a racing series the top classes (LMP) are always ME.

Front engined racing cars have been abandoned since the 1950s, except from the GT production based racers. I don't think this was done for nothing.

Also all the hyper performance cars are ME from the F1, CGT, Enzo, the various Lamborghinis and now the three current ones. I don't  think manufacturers do it for the style alone.

 

 

I meant to say rear mid-engine, but still, I'm not sure layout is as important anymore in production cars. That NIssan GTR Nismo set up for the NR did it in 7:08. Blows all those mid-engine cars of its era out of the water. GT2 RS also dominated the mid-engine cars.

KresoF1:
Sorry to say this but, R8 is product based on Gallardo(or Huracan for new model) platform. Ausi was not brave they aimply use platform that was already available. I am Audi fan but, here we need to get the fact right.

As I wrote before AMG GT will be an amazing front engine sportscar and it will better almost all of its competitors in drive dynamics.
Strong words you might say but, after first real tests you will see the outcome.

Sounds promising 

JimFlat6:

On a cold day forget getting any adhesion from their tires and if its raining do not take the Viper out at all..

This.  My cousin had a 1996 Viper GTS back in 1996 and it was raining, he was speeding through his neighborhood, a cat rain out, he slammed on the brakes, and then slammed into a brick mailbox.  Totaled the car.  I drove the car a few times (when I was 16 years old, so it was the coolest thing ever back then to me) and man that thing was not a safe car by any means, haha.

Grant:

noone1:

How come Corvettes destroy everything every generation and for relatively peanuts? GTR and Vipers running circles around Ferraris, Porsches, and Lamborghinis as well.

Because the American cars typically have double the displacement.

You should see how my Jeep GC SRT jumps forward from standstill, this is just insane. I always thought this has something to do with the throttle setup but my dealer, who is also a skilled Chrysler products tuner, told me that the 6.4 l engine is to blame for the fantastic acceleration without any lag. 

I just killed a Porsche 991 Carrera S Cab PDK yesterday at the stop light (and yes, he tried because he was with me...a friend). I left him behind two(!!!) car lengths from standstill and he started to close in only after I hit 120 kph or so. Amazing setup for the Jeep GC SRT and the large displacement engine certainly seems to have it's benefits.

Unfortunately my SRT had a software update yesterday in the afternoon (engine, transmission, rear axle diff., heating, etc. etc. etc.) and after that, the whole "fuzzy logic" data was gone and the systems started to learn from scratch. The performance changed completely, pretty bad. Now I have to wait at least another 1000 km or so (and hope for cold weather because this is when the engine software adjusts best) until I get the previous performance back. My son is p.ss.d, he loves the SRT (actually more than my Turbo S because nobody thinks the Jeep SRT is that fast from standstill).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnonGwN9h0E&feature=youtube_gdata

Looks good!  Giving those tires a workout - sounds like a pretty heavy/fast car

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

I wish MB all the luck with this car but it looks like just another German Joy Ride where the driver is almost just a passenger to the vehicles electronics. It likely won't be the kind of sports car that requires much human skill to exploit it.

And I look at that camoflauge and wonder just how ugly the headlights will be.

Jim,

Your posts about AMG GT are very negative and very subjective at the same time. You do not like it or Mercedes in general-we got the message.

http://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w205/543827-official-mercedes-amg-gt-engine-sounds.html?styleid=19

Hi Kreso-  I really like Mercedes, I just kind of expect more from them. They have had so many firsts in the automotive world that it would be nice to see them have more.

Mercedes are also conservative. They wouldn't do anything very unexpected or flashy and flamboyant. Their last extravagant design was the C111 45 years ago and perhaps the Vision Gran Turismo which wasn't a real car but virtual. The AMG GT styling is supposed to be a very toned down version of this virtual car.

However, their engineering especially AMG is innovative and progressive and one of the best in the world.

Mercedes buyers like this philosophy, I think.

"Form follows function"

I love this brand more and more...cannot wait for more details to come out. I will drive a SLS this summer and I will be curious to find out the differences !

KresoF1:
Sorry to say this but, R8 is product based on Gallardo(or Huracan for new model) platform. Ausi was not brave they aimply use platform that was already available. I am Audi fan but, here we need to get the fact right.

As I wrote before AMG GT will be an amazing front engine sportscar and it will better almost all of its competitors in drive dynamics.
Strong words you might say but, after first real tests you will see the outcome.

Probably except F12.

ONUR

THE BEST CAR EVER 

11 E92 M3 CP - 09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

And Corvette Z06

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

I am excited about the next Gen Aston Martins which will probably benefit from the AMG GT work.

2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2014 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab

pride355:

KresoF1:
Sorry to say this but, R8 is product based on Gallardo(or Huracan for new model) platform. Ausi was not brave they aimply use platform that was already available. I am Audi fan but, here we need to get the fact right.

As I wrote before AMG GT will be an amazing front engine sportscar and it will better almost all of its competitors in drive dynamics.
Strong words you might say but, after first real tests you will see the outcome.

Probably except F12.

F12 is not AMG GT competitor, at least IMO.

Grant:

And Corvette Z06

Z06 with optional 8 speed will be priced at almost 991 Turbo level in EU.

The AMG has no real competitors IMO. In terms of configuration (front engine, 2 seats) , the Corvette like all American cars don't appeal ourside the USA and the Jaguar brand has a limited following outside the UK relative to Mercedes.

The 911 is also not a current competitor because most probably the AMG potential buyers either have a 911 and they want something novel and they wouldn't return to Porsche anyway or have at some stage in the past considered a 911 and rejected it for some reason. OTOH for people who appreciate what the 911 has to offer, nothing else will do.

Most probably the AMG GT buyers in their majority will be people who liked the SLS but found it too expensive. The AMG GT is like a budget priced SLS.

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"Form follows function"