Crown

I didn't catch Chris Harris said "lacking a lot of passion"....  he said "a little bit fussy" on the appearances.... He comments are generally very good other than not been able to drift properly on the track due to the turbo lags....    I think apperances is to one's own view....  I personally love 650S much more than Huracan and 458, its appears less "digital and toy like" and more "passionate" but again everyone's view is objective..... 

Its interesting how he commented about the turbo lag.... I hope he uses this term "turbo lag" only on the drifting power kick out timing, not on our normal driving behaviour....  lets wait and see if the the lag is more evident than 12C....

I think if you have driven a P1 with it's advantanges on the low end side - everything has a lag..... - if you drive as many cars as Chris probably he's right - but for us sticking with a car quite a while and test drive only very little it's hard to compare our findings with CH - who is to me the best automotive journalist

One of the reviews I read commented that there was a smidge more turbo lag.  Perhaps McLaren could wind it back if you wanted?  That rolling chassis was just stunning though

Gen II Cayman S

Noone1, let me put in these terms and obviously my opinion (and I'm British so should be bias). The 650s is very digital versus the analogue 458/huracan. It's the looks of the car. I'm sure the feel of the car (not that I have driven it or MP12). The whole experience really. Also the Mclaren strategy seems a bit messy. Is the 650s the MP12 replacement or not. Where would I want to put my money. I do plan to buy one of these cars to compliment my TTS - so right now it's the Huracan for me. The 650s is an amazing car fore sure. But in this segment it  takes more than that. 

2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2012 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab. Range Rover V8 on order June14 - GT3 or Huracan to add next......decisions decisions decisions.....

EnglishManInNY:

The 650s is an amazing car fore sure. But in this segment it  takes more than that. 

That is the quintessence and IMO the biggest disadvantage of all McLaren models.

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

The good news just like the GTR did with its segment the 650s will cause the segment to raise their bar. The 458 replacement will be very interesting I'm sure. 

2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2012 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab. Range Rover V8 on order June14 - GT3 or Huracan to add next......decisions decisions decisions.....

EnglishManInNY:

Noone1, let me put in these terms and obviously my opinion (and I'm British so should be bias). The 650s is very digital versus the analogue 458/huracan. It's the looks of the car. I'm sure the feel of the car (not that I have driven it or MP12). The whole experience really. Also the Mclaren strategy seems a bit messy. Is the 650s the MP12 replacement or not. Where would I want to put my money. I do plan to buy one of these cars to compliment my TTS - so right now it's the Huracan for me. The 650s is an amazing car fore sure. But in this segment it  takes more than that. 

So in conclusion, you're just repeating what you've heard and have nothing to base it on.

You said the 650S lacks passion after watching that video, yet throughout that video it's doing the exact same stuff you seen in a 458 or Speciale video. I don't really see how you can come to any conclusion about it whatsoever.

Grant:

Whoopsy:

...upcoming P13 could be consider the base model 911, i.e. the Carrera 2. Or even lower like the Boxter from the 996 platform.

No, Boxster does not get twin turbo Mezger like the GT2RS with boost turned down (P13 gets twin turbo V8 from P1 for 10% of the price).  P13 is looking like the best buy of the bunch, unless I learn that they cut corners more than has been said so far. Same carbon tub, motor, and gearbox with lighter weight and smaller dimensions.  Where is the downside (and where are the profits for McLaren - how does this car cost much less to build than 650S?)

P13 might not get turbo-ed. P15 definitely will.

As for cost, by the time P13 rolls around, it will be like the 6th year for McLaren to use the 12C platform. Majority cost would have been amortized by the 12C, P1 and 650S, for bottom line purpose the P13 will cost very little to build.

Conservative estimate puts the profit margin per P1 at 50%, the 650S is just a face lifted version of the 12C with very little hardware change, yet McLaren raises the list price for that car too. The P15 is also based on the 12C platform too and that one is suppose to slot between the P1 and the 650S, so even higher profit margin. Since the P13 is suppose to be the entry level car priced below the 12C, it would be the volume leader and the volume will make up for the lower profit margin.

Noone1, I guess we could talk about this topic until we are out of breath. If I had the desire I could go drive one today. My nearest dealer is a few miles away and I pass it frequently. I just don't have the desire to. I guess this car gives you a lot of desire - I glad it does. I am British and glad we Brits can build a car like this. But everyone is different. 

--

2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2012 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab. Range Rover V8 on order June14 - GT3 or Huracan to add next......decisions decisions decisions.....

Whoopsy:

P13 might not get turbo-ed. P15 definitely will. 

Really?  Everything I've read said TT V8 and ~500hp for P13.  It's certainly possible to get 500hp from 3.8L without turbos (witness the GT3), but I always thought they would go twin turbo.  I'd be fine with n/a also (with 9k redline and lighter internals), but that seems like a much bigger project than just delivering another 12C motor with smaller turbos and/or different software.

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Well detuning a motor is cheap, it can either be done in software only or using cheaper lower spec part to limit the output.

But if the base motor is decent, a NA engine can saved quite a bit of weight as all the extra hardware, maybe around 75-100lbs of stuff can be discarded. I think the modern 3.8 V8 can easily do 450HP 8500redline on it's own with not much hardware change.

Whoopsy:

I think the modern 3.8 V8 can easily do 450HP 8500redline on it's own with not much hardware change.

I agree, but I think 450hp (and would only offer around 325 ft-lbs of torque with normal aspiration) is not enough to play with 991 Turbo, Audi R8, Huracan, etc. which is the intended competition.  I think the number will have to start with a "5", unless they can really lose a bunch of weight (lighter than GT3 by a decent margin).

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Grant:

Whoopsy:

I think the modern 3.8 V8 can easily do 450HP 8500redline on it's own with not much hardware change.

I agree, but I think 450hp (and would only offer around 325 ft-lbs of torque with normal aspiration) is not enough to play with 991 Turbo, Audi R8, Huracan, etc. which is the intended competition.  I think the number will have to start with a "5", unless they can really lose a bunch of weight (lighter than GT3 by a decent margin).

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

As it stand right now the 991 GT3 weights about the same as a 12C coupe 3100lb and change, if McLaren indeed loses the turbos, and switch to a conventional suspension system instead of the hydraulic one, which should be another 20-30lb saving without all the fluids, reservoirs and tubings, then it maybe 100-130lb lighter without changing anything else. 

Now looking at numbers, then I guess turbos has to be put back on the table. 

Didn't realize the 12C (and 650S?) were so light. Power/weight ratios must be great.

EnglishManInNY:

Noone1, I guess we could talk about this topic until we are out of breath. If I had the desire I could go drive one today. My nearest dealer is a few miles away and I pass it frequently. I just don't have the desire to. I guess this car gives you a lot of desire - I glad it does. I am British and glad we Brits can build a car like this. But everyone is different. 

--

2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2012 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab. Range Rover V8 on order June14 - GT3 or Huracan to add next......decisions decisions decisions.....

That point is that it shows how tainted the brand has become just by journalist nonsense. You think it lacks passion because that seems to be the general view in the media, but in reality you have no experience with it. What's so passionate about a Huracan? Do you really think Lamborghini is made with any more passion than the engineers over at McLaren? Seems unlikely being that a massive amount of it is Audi developed.

Just because you like an NA exhaust, doesn't mean it lacks passion.

It just gets old hearing people call cars boring or passionate, or exciting when in fact 99% of driving is well below the limit and probably just cruising. I guarantee an LMP car lacks passion if you're just going to drive at 80mph in a straight line, or 45mph through the suburbs. Of all the exotics I've seen in my life, I've never seen one doing anything that a Camry couldn't do, but just maybe louder.

Mike S:

Rossi:

Whoopsy:

Mike S:

Got to drive this car briefly on the weekend. It is SO fast!!! It's got slightly more power than the 12C, but it feels a quite a degree faster!

There is more turbo lag on the lower RPM's, but on 6k+ RPM it's just insane. Pulls as hard as a Turbo S even though it's RWD only. Never felt a RWD car with this much pull. The ride is also far more compliant on this in normal mode. Dead quiet and not clunky as per on the 12C.

In person it also looks amazing. The carbon work on the front bumper is superb. A great value for money car 

 

Decoded: Mike S just bought one. 

Two. One Coupé and one Spider.

C'mon guys, I've been so conservative the last few years. But yes, the delivery is in 3 weeks for a Spider 

  classic

Well, that's all she wrote, folks. 12C is officially discontinued, but with some parting gifts. Seems fair and pretty much expected. Essentially you get some new tech updates via software and discounts on some new 650S retro-fit options.

"Last month we were proud to present the latest addition to our range: the McLaren 650S. Utilising advancements made during the development of the groundbreaking McLaren P1™, the 650S provides an unparalleled combination of performance and refinement.

True to the McLaren ethos, the benefits of such progress are not limited to our new models. As a McLaren owner, we want to be able to share these developments with you with the offer of a free Technology Upgrade available from June.

This package of upgrades will offer new Active Aero software which will allow your 12C's existing Airbrake to 'sense' different driving scenarios, deploying to improve stability when lifting off the throttle or cresting a hill - this is in addition to the usual Airbrake position under heavy braking. The new system also includes a DRS (Drag Reduction System) mode which lowers the wing when driving at speed in a straight line, improving high-speed aerodynamics.

The Technology Upgrade also includes improvements to functionality and usability of the Android-based IRIS system. Later 12C models (with door buttons) will further benefit from an external control to lower the windows, to aid easier access in confined spaces.

In addition to this free upgrade, we are also offering a special price on two new features introduced with the 650S: the reversing camera and DAB radio. These cost options have been specially priced for 12C owners, to allow you to take advantage of the very latest technology (please note, depending on your model year, there may be hardware restrictions).

To find out more about both the Technology Upgrade and the new options, please contact your local retailer who can discuss your car in more detail.

Meanwhile, the final piece of news I wanted to share with you is regarding 12C production which we have decided to cease in light of the success of 650S. The new car has been so well received since its unveiling at the Geneva Motor Show (we already have a six month order bank) we will focus all our capacity at the McLaren Production Centre on 650S.

After three years of 12C production, this represents a natural evolution of our model line-up. I want to assure you that McLaren remains dedicated to customer satisfaction and that we care about the ownership experience of every car we've ever sold.

Once again, we thank you for your commitment to McLaren and being part of our committed pursuit for automotive excellence.

Best Regards

Mike Flewitt

Cheif Executive Officer
McLaren Automotive"

Very smooth, but you still f**ked your 12C customers, I believe.

The 2nd hand market for 12C will take a dump.

Maybe. But the car has been out 3 years. Early models should be discounted 30-45% anyway... Tougher for people who just took delivery though...

However you have to applaud Mac Laren for updating the "old" 12C. Never really heard of this before from other brands.They are slowly erasing the 12C launch debacle IMHO with the performance of the 650S and customer treatment. I will look forward to test drive a 650S convertible soon.

Maybe this is what the 680S will look like in a year or so to compete with the 458 replacement...

2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2012 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab. Range Rover V8 on order June14 - GT3 or Huracan to add next......decisions decisions decisions.....

I am having a test drive in the convertible in May . Looking forward to that .

I must say, from the beginning, the McLaren representatives over here have been very good, open, clever, friendly, approchable, easy , making every experience with McLaren a very nice moment . This helps a lot too.

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Does anyone think that McLaren Automotive, as an independent manufacturer of expensive niche cars can survive for very long? I very much doubt it.

Past experience with similar type of  cars has shown that this is an impossible mission.

Soon McLaren will be looking for a buyer and if they don't find one, they will fold. I wouldn't take the risk spending 300.000 EUR on one of their products.

--

"Form follows function"

As long as McLaren can keep the general public from knowing that every model they have released are basically a 12C with a different tuning level, and not a 'different model', they can sell quite a number of cars. 

For the time being, their financial is in good shape as the P1 is bringing major infusion of money. And economies of scale have helped them bringing down the cost of future variants of the 12C down to a very manageable level. 

As long as the world doesn't suffer another world wide financial meltdown, they should be ok.

Whoopsy:

As long as McLaren can keep the general public from knowing that every model they have released are basically a 12C with a different tuning level, and not a 'different model', they can sell quite a number of cars. 

This has worked for Porsche for years and is one of the key factors for Porsche's success. McLaren simply need to get their marketing in shape.

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE
2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

bluelines:

Whoopsy:

As long as McLaren can keep the general public from knowing that every model they have released are basically a 12C with a different tuning level, and not a 'different model', they can sell quite a number of cars. 

This has worked for Porsche for years and is one of the key factors for Porsche's success. McLaren simply need to get their marketing in shape.

Only the 911 model line. And that line has 50 years of history to go with it. Porsche also has the Boxster/Cayman line, Cayenne line, Panamera line, Macan line.

What McLaren should be doing is to copy Ferrari not Porsche. Volume wise it's the closest competitor. Even at the low volume that Ferrari sells, they have 4 distinct platforms. It's how Ferrari can justify the price they charged. 

Come to think of it, McLaren is actually doing what Aston Martin is doing, one platform manufacturer. Maybe it's a British thing. Souping up a base model, give it some new clothes and charge 4x the asking price for their halo model and in the process blow a lot of smoke to deny the halo car is a souped up model.

Exactly what AM is doing with the VH platform, I have no problem with that...

Whoopsy:

Grant:

Whoopsy:

I think the modern 3.8 V8 can easily do 450HP 8500redline on it's own with not much hardware change.

I agree, but I think 450hp (and would only offer around 325 ft-lbs of torque with normal aspiration) is not enough to play with 991 Turbo, Audi R8, Huracan, etc. which is the intended competition.  I think the number will have to start with a "5", unless they can really lose a bunch of weight (lighter than GT3 by a decent margin).

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

 

As it stand right now the 991 GT3 weights about the same as a 12C coupe 3100lb and change, if McLaren indeed loses the turbos, and switch to a conventional suspension system instead of the hydraulic one, which should be another 20-30lb saving without all the fluids, reservoirs and tubings, then it maybe 100-130lb lighter without changing anything else. 

Now looking at numbers, then I guess turbos has to be put back on the table. 

Top Gear speculates that the P13 might be V6:

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Jean:

Very smooth, but you still f**ked your 12C customers, I believe.

The 2nd hand market for 12C will take a dump.

Not really. The 650S is a facelift not unlike many others. It has a more dramatic front-end, a little performance boost, and some new options. It's not a new car. It's just a facelifted 12C.

The car has been available for over 3 years now. It's pretty normal to see such things and rarely do they effect the prices of already deeply discounted cars.

650S is $300K. A 2-3 year old 12C is $180-200K.  Too far apart in price.

It would have been all fine if McLaren admitted 650S as a 12C facelift.  However, they are saying that this is a completely different model and would have produced along side 12C if it were not for the pent up demand for the 650S. 

I suspect that it was Mclaren's plan to facelift 12C with 650S all along.  

It was just a nice marketing gimmick they played on their customers.

As a facelift or a new model, whatever it would be, it is evident what 650S will do to 12C used price.

McLaren 650S Spider: "So much better than the 12C it defies belief..."

"The McLaren 650S Spider is more than a modified 12C Spider. A quarter of its parts are new and owes much to the mighty P1. The McLaren 650S Spider costs some £20k more than the £190,000 coupe version, and it's worth every penny. Why? Because it can do just about everything the coupé can do dynamically yet adds a sizeable hit of extra sex appeal to go with it. And that arrives courtesy of a folding hard top roof that can glide up or down in but a few seconds, and which transforms the 650S into an even more exotic creature on the move..."

McLaren 650S Spider: "So much better than the 12C it defies belief" -- Autocar video link