Crown

nberry:

Christian, you need to stop with this Porsche speak. Replacing engines on a new car by a dealer is an unmitigated disaster for Porsche and a buyer like me. The car will not be the same despite all the assurances. 

Also, this new engine hasn't gone through rigorous testing usually required by Porsche policies. Porsche is stuck and now they are taking shortcuts to correct a problem and appease the howling owners. Their only other alternative would have been to cancel the model which they would never do.

With the new untested engine, we will become Porsche's R&D . Sure Porsche will provide a better warranty but they do not know if this engine will perform to Porsche standards. Many of us could face long service times or in six months experience other failures.

Porsche brand has been tarnished and as a buyer my confidence in Porsche has taken a serious hit.

This is no Porsche "speak". I do not work for Porsche and they do not pay me. What I am saying is based on unofficial information I received, nothing more and nothing less. You either try to trust me or not, it is your choice. 

I'm just trying to be fair here, especially since I know the internet. If you enjoy "bullying" Porsche, be my guest but I'm trying to find a more objective approach to this very unfortunate GT3 issue.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Got the engine on My Cayenne TTS replaced. Had to go back once for a check engine light but else it has been flawless...

Changing a Carrera engine takes 2 hours last time I spoke about it with my OPC - and it can be done at the dealer no problem. No need to ship 785 GT3s back to the factory.

Regardless, we have to wait until Porsche have released an official statement... 

RS60 Spyder, 991 GT3 RS pending... :(

Christian I am not sure what you are referring to? Believe you regarding only a small number of cars affected?

 BTW, if Porsche redesigned a faulty part where is the rigorous testing for the new part? Isn't it in essence a new engine?

Ironic really. In the "old days" when Porsches were sold at Audi dealerships and telex was the means of communication with Germnay an owner would have his engine torn apart by the dealer and parts were replaced piece meal hoping for a solution. The thought of a new engine provided by the Porsche factory was unimaginable.  Porsche is making the best out of a difficult situation. The frustration is understandable, but a new engine seems the best solution among many others that would be far more dubious.

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

nberry:

Christian I am not sure what you are referring to? Believe you regarding only a small number of cars affected?

 BTW, if Porsche redesigned a faulty part where is the rigorous testing for the new part? Isn't it in essence a new engine?

So far, all I heard is that it is a supplier issue. There is nothing really there to be redesigned. If this is true, this means that the affected part(s) would need replacement. Since it is unlikely that Porsche would allow dealers to remove the engines from customer GT3 and replace the affected part(s), it is more likely that the whole engine will be replaced. 

I have a bit more information on this issue I cannot share (simply because I don't know who knows about this and it could unveil the source) but trust me when I say that Porsche is working extremely hard on fixing the GT3 issue(s) as soon as possible. This is not something they take lightly, a lot is going on right now at Porsche because of the GT3 and a lot of people are working hard on finalizing the perfect solution for this matter.

Even the above is speculation though. I do not know what kind of steps or measures the management decides to apply.

Porsche cares...a lot...but all this internet talk about this and that doesn't really help. It just makes everyone mad, angry, annoyed and frustrated. Including those who are working hard on a fix, believe it or not.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

I would be fed up with the wait but a replacement engine would hold absolutley no qualms.  After the IMS debacle, an engine change is bread and butter work for OPCs.  In fact, the new engine on my 986 felt stronger than the old one.

If the problem is supplier related then there is no issue with a straightforward inspection of the new components, a sample test of new build engines at operating extremes and a level of bench testing for each new engine.  If its a design flaw then you are probably going to have to wait a bit longer.  But you will almost certainly still get a new engine when the fix is finalised and tested.   But I cannot fathom why that would be a cause for concern from a technical standpoint and from a commercial standpoint, the GT3 is a halo product so Porsche are unlikely to take further risks in releasing  an under-developed/tested product to the customer.

Gen II Cayman S

Christian, thanks for the information. I have no doubt Porsche is working hard on this and as frustrated as anyone.

But, Christian you, I and Porsche know that there is no perfect solution short of building us new cars which Porsche for financial reasons will not do. 

My solution from a customer standpoint is to call me tomorrow and tell me I have two choices. Take a replacement engine with some compensation or treat me like I just bought a 918 and provide me with a new immediate allocation.

Porsche and the dealer can take my car with its replacement engine and sell it as new. it has not been driven though the dealer and Porsche by law must inform the buyer of the engine replacement. I would take this alternative. I am willing to wait another 60 days for my car.

i think like you Nick,

I don't like to see my car with the engine down at my dealer with 0/100/500 kms on the speedo.

I whant a new car,not a like new one,becouse i pay a new car not a something like new one.

And also a really good dealer can make some wrong thing rebuilding a car for the first time(due who have experience on a GT3 now?!).No...if i'm in the same situation i will be really upset.

And sad to tell,but is the reality,i hope they solve all before they release the RS,i don't whant a problem,i whant a car to enjoy...

997TT RS Tuning stage II(sold),2011 Cayenne Turbo(sold),waiting 991 GT3 RS

The reality is that Porsche are not going to spend 1000’s manufacturing and shipping out new engines, if faulty parts can be replaced for a fraction of the cost by the dealer network.  That is just common/business sense, and Porsche are very focused on their bottom line.

So IF the GT3’s do need new engines, then that is going to suggest either multiple parts failure or fundamental design flaw/s.  Lest we all forget however,  that’s not unusual for cutting-edge stuff, we’ve all seen the pictures of Ferraris & R8’s on fire.

The issue for me is longevity, because we know the new engine won’t complete the 24hrs Le Mans, as it has no racing heritage.  That said, it’s unlikely that the 991 GT3’s competition would be able to do that either, so it looks like Porsche have built a car that the majority of its new customers want (despite; electric power steering, PDK only, 4 wheel steering and an electric handbrake). 

So finally, thank you Hans Mezger, emissions naivety and the post millennium manufacturing boom…things will clearly never be the same.  As for poor old Porsche getting flack from upset customers on this forum, something tells me they can probably handle it!

RC:

Porsche cares...a lot...but all this internet talk about this and that doesn't really help. It just makes everyone mad, angry, annoyed and frustrated. Including those who are working hard on a fix, believe it or not.

It's great to hear that Porsche cares. All they need to do to stop the internet speculation is communicate - it is really simple. This is also known as good customer service. But perhaps, as you mentioned before, unless I misunderstood, good communication is not the German way? Regardless, businesses are global these days so communication with the whole world is very important to be successful.

RS60 Spyder, 991 GT3 RS pending... :(

boytronic:

RC:

Porsche cares...a lot...but all this internet talk about this and that doesn't really help. It just makes everyone mad, angry, annoyed and frustrated. Including those who are working hard on a fix, believe it or not.

It's great to hear that Porsche cares. All they need to do to stop the internet speculation is communicate - it is really simple. This is also known as good customer service. But perhaps, as you mentioned before, unless I misunderstood, good communication is not the German way? Regardless, businesses are global these days so communication with the whole world is very important to be successful.

+1

I can hear and understand everything... But I want to hear something!... :(

AndyP:

...So IF the GT3’s do need new engines, then that is going to suggest either multiple parts failure or fundamental design flaw/s...

Respectively, I disagree with the notion that is must be design flaws or multiple parts failures.

It just has to be one defective part (possibly due to some sort of manufacturing/tolerance defect) to precipitate an engine change.

If (for example) there was manufacturing flaw with a part “buried” in the engine, then Porsche could either have dealer technicians tear down the motor, replace the offending part and re-assemble. Although this would save material costs, you would have high dealer labor costs (much less efficient than the factory) AND you would not have the same consistency and quality in engine assembly (most likely), a much bigger concern. For this reason, engine replacement makes sense (and is not an unusual approach). I'd be much more concerned if Porsche would try and save a few bucks by having engine disassembly done at the dealer...

 Popping an engine out and then in is no big deal at all. Some on here seem to think that the “car will never be the same” but I don’t get that. Maybe my perspective is different as I have the experience of dropping my Carrera’s motor and comprehensively rebuilding it. Taking the motor out and putting it in was very straightforward. Sure, a GT3 will have a few more wires and hoses to disconnect, but it is not a difficult process. Plus, engine removal is normal SOP for many maintenance operations (such as clutch replacement).

nberry:

... BTW, if Porsche redesigned a faulty part where is the rigorous testing for the new part? Isn't it in essence a new engine?

 WOW..one man dares to raise "concern" - Im fully with you. I wouldnt mind a new engine in itself - it cant be worse then the old one - no matter if it 996,997 or 991, new engine is always good..

BUT: Porsche is trying to fix something now in 3 months for which they had 3 years time to develop and they are only reacting now because of the "bad press" ...

I do believe that they can fix it - but they only have 1 chance - and limited time. Have some of you ever thought of the "worst case scenario - e.g. cars work for some time but in 6 month new engine issues show up"..I wouldnt wanna know what would happen then in Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen.

I already said it before - its time Porsche also takes personal consequences - because there is someone responsible for this, and this person has destroyed by his doing a long standing reputation and admiration for the "GT3 badge".

Porsche, please take the necessary steps here - and if it was Mr Winterkorn himself who was responsible - I DONT CARE - I will not buy any new Porsche until I see this issue solved "from a technical point of view" and from an "management/human point of view".

I suspect the initial delay in fall 2013 is related to this problem so it's been brewing for a while.  A subcontractor agrees to a set of specs it turns out cannot be consistently delivered and the original design parameters for the part(s) in question, done by computer modeling of course, ended up on the edge of what later proved to be inadequate.  Now a new more robust and more expensive part will be specified.  Modern high performance design and manufacturing typically shaves components to the limits of acceptable cost, materials, and complexity of assembly.  Perhaps in retrospect a $140K GT3 would have been less of a bargain and less of a headache for all involved. 

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

I am really having a problem with this. 

I bought a new car and I expect a new car to be delivered to me not one which has had its engine replaced. In my view that is no longer a new car. It left the factory with a substantial defect and for Porsche to say we will fix it and sell it to you as new I have difficulty swallowing. If my car while being loaded fell into the ocean and immediately recover dried out by Porsche would it be right for Porsche to deliver it to me saying it is like new?

I find that offensive.

nberry:

I am really having a problem with this. 

I bought a new car and I expect a new car to be delivered to me not one which has had its engine replaced. In my view that is no longer a new car. It left the factory with a substantial defect and for Porsche to say we will fix it and sell it to you as new I have difficulty swallowing. If my car while being loaded fell into the ocean and immediately recover dried out by Porsche would it be right for Porsche to deliver it to me saying it is like new?

I find that offensive.

You are well within your rights to walk away.  Frankly I saw the potential for this type of issue back in November when I cancelled the order I placed right after Geneva.  There was no minor or trivial reason for the delay, the car was years in development.  It was just a natural corporate reflex to look for a quick fix and keep the ball rolling until it couldn't roll anymore which happened last month.  

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

If you haven’t taken delivery of it then it is a NEW car. Regardless if it left the factory with one engine, turned around on the boat and got another one before you got it, it's NEW. To suggest otherwise is just looking for a fight I think.

Now for people that have had and enjoyed their car already and would be getting a new engine, I would be upset with Porsche if they took out my 10,000 km engine, built a new one, put it on a test bed and then ran it for 10,000 km before they put they put it in. Otherwise I’m getting 10,000km free in terms of engine wear and tear and would be delighted! For the people that have their car staring at them forlornly in their driveway that haven’t been enjoyed or driven much, those people I feel for as they have lost the opportunity time of enjoyment.

Regardless, I suspect Porsche will do something for all GT3 owners that Porsche thinks is extravagant and the owners think is not enough. I would suspect a drivers week-end, a nice Porsche Motorsports jacket and 2 years/20,000 km extra on the engine warrantee is around it.

Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

nberry:

I am really having a problem with this. 

I bought a new car and I expect a new car to be delivered to me not one which has had its engine replaced. In my view that is no longer a new car. It left the factory with a substantial defect and for Porsche to say we will fix it and sell it to you as new I have difficulty swallowing. If my car while being loaded fell into the ocean and immediately recover dried out by Porsche would it be right for Porsche to deliver it to me saying it is like new?

I find that offensive.

That's a ridiculous analogy Nick and you know it.

Frankly, if the concept of a motor replacement gives you the shivers, then walk away.  It really is that simple.  But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that everyone should blindly accept a replacement, factory sealed motor in a new car.   But your analogy is pure hyperbole. 

And further, your contention of a 'design defect' in your posts is not supported by the facts.  The more likely culprit is a manufacturing defect requiring NO redesign.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

I really understand that some people have a problem with a replaced engine. My first 991S had an engine fault at 18000km. Porsche replaced the whole engine on warranty. I had a brand new engine, but I had bad feelings and lost the  faith in the car. I drove it another 2000kms, then sold it and bought a new one. Feels better now :)

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911 S Cabrio (2013), Panamera GTS (2013)

Here is one that has not caught fire and driven by Porsche into the display position.  This is from the F1 today. 

Not sure if this is a language issue or whatever but when I say "supplier issue" and others say "design flaw", then my English certainly seems to be very bad.

As to the "communication", I agree but the reason Porsche hasn't communicated much lately is simply due to the fact that they need to be 100% sure where the problem is and what solution to offer.

Let's say it is a supplier part which fails. How fast can the supplier guarantee quality? How fast can a replacement supplier be found who can guarantee quality? How fast can the supplied replacement parts be installed in new (or old...not very likely though, depending on the position of that particular part) engines? How fast can new engines be supplied to dealer networks, so customer cars can be repaired?

Let's say it is a design flaw. What kind of design flaw is it? How can it be fixed? What new parts are needed? Where to find a supplier who can produce these new parts to specs and in the demanded quality as fast as possible? Don't forget that production numbers for new parts are very low at the beginning, for quality reasons. How fast can these parts be installed in the engines? Do the engines require a modification to fit the parts? Does the car software (ECU, etc.) need modifications to adapt the new part(s). How fast can this fix be applied to customer cars?

Lots of question.

How would you like it if Porsche tells you this: Dear customer, we are sorry but we don't have a clue and if we have a clue, it may take another couple of weeks to find a solution and install it into your car. Would this make you happier? I doubt it.

Porsche will communicate the cause and the solution soon. This is all I know. Not sure if everyone is going to be happy but I know they are working hard on a solution. I also heard that the warranty may be extended for the time the car has been left stranded at the dealers, other customer friendly measures will be discussed too.

Like I said, I do not work for Porsche and I couldn't care less (I do not have a GT3) but we should really try to be fair and objective. All this internet ranting only stirrs up emotions and nothing gets really achieved by that.

I feel very sorry for customers who already have a GT3 at their dealer but they cannot use it but those who ordered one and don't have it yet, should worry the least. You guys are going to get a perfectly new car as far as I heard and even if the car is already in the US but hasn't been delivered yet, nobody will really know about any issues or problems because everything will be fixed before the car goes to the respective dealership. No worries here. Porsche cannot afford another quality nightmare and they know it.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

An official communication from Porsche to dealers and customers seems to be in the pipeline for this Friday. 

I for one hope that one of the five new owners of Gt3's in Lebanon will want to resell their cars and take a hit.  I have already told my dealer to put me on top of the list :) I look at this as an opportunity to get a great car for cheaper, as I'm confident Porsche wil get the fix right

RC:

Not sure if this is a language issue or whatever but when I say "supplier issue" and others say "design flaw", then my English certainly seems to be very bad.

As to the "communication", I agree but the reason Porsche hasn't communicated much lately is simply due to the fact that they need to be 100% sure where the problem is and what solution to offer.

Let's say it is a supplier part which fails. How fast can the supplier guarantee quality? How fast can a replacement supplier be found who can guarantee quality? How fast can the supplied replacement parts be installed in new (or old...not very likely though, depending on the position of that particular part) engines? How fast can new engines be supplied to dealer networks, so customer cars can be repaired?

Let's say it is a design flaw. What kind of design flaw is it? How can it be fixed? What new parts are needed? Where to find a supplier who can produce these new parts to specs and in the demanded quality as fast as possible? Don't forget that production numbers for new parts are very low at the beginning, for quality reasons. How fast can these parts be installed in the engines? Do the engines require a modification to fit the parts? Does the car software (ECU, etc.) need modifications to adapt the new part(s). How fast can this fix be applied to customer cars?

Lots of question.

How would you like it if Porsche tells you this: Dear customer, we are sorry but we don't have a clue and if we have a clue, it may take another couple of weeks to find a solution and install it into your car. Would this make you happier? I doubt it.

Porsche will communicate the cause and the solution soon. This is all I know. Not sure if everyone is going to be happy but I know they are working hard on a solution. I also heard that the warranty may be extended for the time the car has been left stranded at the dealers, other customer friendly measures will be discussed too.

Like I said, I do not work for Porsche and I couldn't care less (I do not have a GT3) but we should really try to be fair and objective. All this internet ranting only stirrs up emotions and nothing gets really achieved by that.

I feel very sorry for customers who already have a GT3 at their dealer but they cannot use it but those who ordered one and don't have it yet, should worry the least. You guys are going to get a perfectly new car as far as I heard and even if the car is already in the US but hasn't been delivered yet, nobody will really know about any issues or problems because everything will be fixed before the car goes to the respective dealership. No worries here. Porsche cannot afford another quality nightmare and they know it.

 Fully Agreed Christian, but you can understand that many of us do nat want to see such a situation again from Porsche. I hope that they are aware of their "misbehavior" - thats why I was saying "there needs to be consequences".

I was thinking about ordering a Macan as occassional daily driver. I will hold back the order until I see this resolved. I havent ordered a 991 GT3 - but one thing is sure - I wouldnt want to be treated like this as a Macan customer.

thanks for your understanding,

Listen, I understand you (and affected GT3 customers) very very well.

I didn't order a Macan because I find this car to be way too expensive (lease) compared to other models in the Porsche model hiearchy and even competitors. For a Macan Turbo, I would have paid almost 800 EUR more per month than for my current Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT. This is insane. Even a 991 Carrera Cab, brand-new, would have been 100 EUR cheaper and this car would have been at least 20k EUR more than the Macan. Now is not the time to lease a Macan, maybe buying one. Also, like Suzy complaints, many future options are still missing.

I will however try to convince my wife to get a Macan Turbo (or at least Diesel S ) when her X3 lease runs out in 18 months or so. By that time, the Macan should be "affordable" and demand should be normal.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

olli:

An official communication from Porsche to dealers and customers seems to be in the pipeline for this Friday. 

Leaked already? ;)

http://thumbsnap.com/AMFHcpLk

RS60 Spyder, 991 GT3 RS pending... :(

I understand humor but whoever posted this on the internet, should remove it as fast as possible (or at least remove that Porsche crest from this). Porsche law department doesn't have any humor when it comes to using their copyrighted insignia for such jokes and this could blow up in the face of whoever wanted to make the joke. Just a friendly advice.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

All this internet ranting only stirrs up emotions and nothing gets really achieved by that.

With all due respect, if you really want people to stop posting concerns/criticisms then probably best to shut down Rennteam.com  Internet forums exist for people to express their views.  Only time can determine which views are more or less accurate.

RC:

I understand humor but whoever posted this on the internet, should remove it as fast as possible (or at least remove that Porsche crest from this). Porsche law department doesn't have any humor when it comes to using their copyrighted insignia for such jokes and this could blow up in the face of whoever wanted to make the joke. Just a friendly advice.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC, I'm pretty sure Porsche's lawyers have far more serious things to contend with than some goofy letter posted on a forum for a laugh amongst owners who are clearly frustrated with their situation and Porsche's silence on the matter... Just saying, not looking to start an argument over it...