Crown

TB993tt:

I have been told by someone who knows a lot about conrods that the 991 GT3 conrods are not strong enough for their rated output and revs (yes he/she has had a good look at them)

It sounds to me like Porsche are succuming to VW group pressure on price/spec of parts and the old way of Porsche engineering has been changed.....  

There were plenty of issues long before VW. From chain tensioners to cracking cylinder studs on the air cooled SC and Carrera, serious cylinder head leakages on the 964 etc. Moreover, the notorious RMS and IMS problems afflicted engines engineered before the VW takeover.

Porsche 911s were never 100% reliable contrary to popular belief. Just in the old days very few people owned such cars and news relating to problems didn't interest the many. And there was no internet, too!

--

"Form follows function"

reginos:

TB993tt:

I have been told by someone who knows a lot about conrods that the 991 GT3 conrods are not strong enough for their rated output and revs (yes he/she has had a good look at them)

It sounds to me like Porsche are succuming to VW group pressure on price/spec of parts and the old way of Porsche engineering has been changed.....  

There were plenty of issues long before VW. From chain tensioners to cracking cylinder studs on the air cooled SC and Carrera, serious cylinder head leakages studs on the 964 etc. Moreover, the notorious RMS and IMS problems afflicted engines engineered before the VW takeover.

Porsche 911s were never 100% reliable contrary to popular belief. Just in the old days very few people owned such cars and news relating to problems didn't interest the many. And there was no internet, too!

--

"Form follows function"

 BRAVO - fully agreed..

TB993tt:

I have been told by someone who knows a lot about conrods that the 991 GT3 conrods are not strong enough for their rated output and revs (yes he/she has had a good look at them)

It sounds to me like Porsche are succuming to VW group pressure on price/spec of parts and the old way of Porsche engineering has been changed.....  

 exactly this has already been speculated on in another German Porsche forum - 2 years ago! First I was thinking how can this be possible..but if it were true..

Its time Porsche also takes personal consequences here..at its management level please. The one who is responsible for this disaster and is "destroying the GT3" should be the first "out"..

Guys, as far as I know, VW has nothing to do with any pressure regarding production cost and gain margins. Actually, VW is very happy with the gain margins or let's say, the upper management (since VW is actually owned by Porsche ). I don't know why this rumor(?) keeps popping up on the internet (and the press) over and over again. It is getting tiresome.

Porsche put so many new vehicles (incl. engine variants) on the market over the past couple of years and this seems to be the first time for many years something really went wrong immediately after market introduction.

I don't want to defend them (as a GT3 owner, I would be very p.ss.d) but we should stick to the facts and not rumors or hearsay.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

I remembered a story. Last December I was in a watch shop in Zurich. The lady in the shop around 65 years saw the Porsche jacket I was wearing and asked me what Porsche I own. She then went on telling me that her husband had several 911s until 1990 when his then new 964 suddenly caught fire from the engine bay on the motorway and was a total loss. At those times, nobody cared very much from the dealer or the HQ to find out the real cause or was willing to reimburse him.

Totally different customer attitude then and now, but a very similar event. Moreover, even if five or ten  964s burned around the world no one would know.

--

"Form follows function"

TB993tt:

RC:

KresoF1:

What an idi0tic movie. Why are some americans buying a Porsche if they still have "that kind" of opinion about Germans?

No, IMHO this movie is not funny at all. 

These Hitler "joking" videos on YouTube get tiresome. There is nothing funny about Hitler, sorry to say that. I don't get them either and actually, my stomach kind of felt weird while I watched this video. Sorry, Hitler jokes are not really something Germans can enjoy or...should enjoy. Tasteless.

You must realise outside Germany (maybe inside as well I don't know)  most people find that video with its subtitles extremely funny and applied to the GT3 fiasco is hilarious, maybe it is that people like to think that Hitler was so insane that he should be the subject of ridicule. It most certainly is not aimed at modern Germans, most definitely not. The line "I put those idiots in business"  I thought was a little unnecessary but this is just black humour.... 

--

 

 

3.9  GT2 2011 make over

+++++++++++++++++++

+1  For those who are ignoring an important fact:  The video is based on an actual very good historical film.  The GT3 subtitles are worthy of an award.

nberry:

Every country has its dark chapter. Unfairly, Germans get their noses rubbed into it more than most.

++++++++

+1 and very politely put!

This film is recommended both for in a historical context as well as artistically. 

Check it out. "Der Untergang" or "Downfall" in English. Get it in German language for authenticity and read the subtitles.

The main actor Bruno Ganz is excellent.

"Form follows function"

J.Seven:

TB993tt:

I have been told by someone who knows a lot about conrods that the 991 GT3 conrods are not strong enough for their rated output and revs (yes he/she has had a good look at them)

It sounds to me like Porsche are succuming to VW group pressure on price/spec of parts and the old way of Porsche engineering has been changed.....  

How could Porsche engeering make this kind of mistake!!!!! It´s really hard to believe  But if you think what happend during 10 years in a row of 9X6 series engine blow outs without Porsche having the ability to correct the problem ...oh well 

+++++++++++++++++++

Open your eyes.  Can't you see a trend?  Porsche is gradually getting out of the sports car business and the almost-ape-named latest SUV is not going to help otherwise.  They are selling fewer sports cars today than they were 20 years ago.

PBS2010:

J.Seven:

TB993tt:

I have been told by someone who knows a lot about conrods that the 991 GT3 conrods are not strong enough for their rated output and revs (yes he/she has had a good look at them)

It sounds to me like Porsche are succuming to VW group pressure on price/spec of parts and the old way of Porsche engineering has been changed.....  

How could Porsche engeering make this kind of mistake!!!!! It´s really hard to believe  But if you think what happend during 10 years in a row of 9X6 series engine blow outs without Porsche having the ability to correct the problem ...oh well 

+++++++++++++++++++

Open your eyes.  Can't you see a trend?  Porsche is gradually getting out of the sports car business and the almost-ape-named latest SUV is not going to help otherwise.  They are selling fewer sports cars today than they were 20 years ago.

If it was not for the other models then Porsche would have gone bust a long time ago. Like almost happened 20 years ago. I don't see the diversification as something negative. The 911 would not be what it is, the sports car of all sports cars, without the revenue from the other models. All smaller sports cars manufacturers are either bust, suffering from financial problems or offer cars at much higher premiums.

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE
2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

PBS2010:

Open your eyes.  Can't you see a trend?  Porsche is gradually getting out of the sports car business and the almost-ape-named latest SUV is not going to help otherwise.  They are selling fewer sports cars today than they were 20 years ago.

Yes, I am reminded of this fact every time I drive my 991 Turbo S.   They really don't have a clue building sportscars anymore.  

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

I struggle with defining the latest 991/981 models as sports cars because they seem to me more like very sporting GTs.  I'm not saying they are bad cars because performance and handling are beyond reproach but the level of feedback is inadequate for my definition of  a sports car.   Based on reviews, the one exception would be the GT3 but they're not building those at the moment 

Gen II Cayman S

GR:

I struggle with defining the latest 991/981 models as sports cars because they seem to me more like very sporting GTs.  I'm not saying they are bad cars because performance and handling are beyond reproach but the level of feedback is inadequate for my definition of  a sports car.   Based on reviews, the one exception would be the GT3 but they're not building those at the moment 

But, isn't that really what a "sports car" is supposed to be, as opposed to the more "race car" personality of a GT3? Older "sports cars" were certainly often more spartan, but, then, all cars were previously often more spartan.

reginos:

This film is recommended both for in a historical context as well as artistically. 

Check it out. "Der Untergang" or "Downfall" in English. Get it in German language for authenticity and read the subtitles.

The main actor Bruno Ganz is excellent.

I agree, movie is excellent.

BTW, I can also recommend new German TV series 'Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter' , produced by Nico Hoffman. A WWII prespective from the eyes of the ordinary germans during that time period.

OT-a rumor that I heard about solution for new GT3 problem is almost a shocking thing. But, I still have not lost my faith in Porsche.

The normal Carrera S 911, even the 991 version, is a sports car with GT characteristics rather than the other way round.

"Form follows function"

RC:

Guys, as far as I know, VW has nothing to do with any pressure regarding production cost and gain margins. Actually, VW is very happy with the gain margins or let's say, the upper management (since VW is actually owned by Porsche ). I don't know why this rumor(?) keeps popping up on the internet (and the press) over and over again. It is getting tiresome.

Porsche put so many new vehicles (incl. engine variants) on the market over the past couple of years and this seems to be the first time for many years something really went wrong immediately after market introduction.

I don't want to defend them (as a GT3 owner, I would be very p.ss.d) but we should stick to the facts and not rumors or hearsay.

 RC,

Im not necessarily saying its VW..but the way this thing is handeld..I havent ordered a 991 GT3 - but if I did - I would have cancelled already. If Porsche releases a press release tomorrow "we are sorry to find it was a supplier issue.." No..I wouldnt accept that. Porche has 12,000 employees, Porsche has x amount of Le Mans victories, Porche has dominated the track days over the last years with thei 996/997GT cars, Porsche has build the most reliable track cars, Porsche started developing the 991 GT3 already roughly 3 years, Porsche testet this car for month, Porsche delayed the introduction for about 6 month, now this - after all this they still havent the car running - come on RC..for christ sake..they are not growing and selling bananas..there needs to be consequences here..and drastic ones. Every company would do the same.

Im with Kreso here - I havent lost faith in Porsche - but they need to come out of the dark and above all - give us the truth - period. If I get the impression they are not doing it..and I wont order a new one soon..until I see reliable 991 GT3 on the track...and not in showrooms.

I get the feeling that some of you seem to confuse a race car with a sports car. 

If someone thinks that the current 991 Carrera or Carrera S is no sports car, then I have nothing to discuss about. This is getting ridiculous on so many levels and I just will stop commenting because I could say something I regret later on. 

@Kreso: I heard a pretty shocking rumor too but this came from someone who heard it from a third party (not directly from Porsche), so maybe he had the same source and the rumor isn't true. I cannot believe it and I won't spread this rumor either because I try to be as objective as possible regarding the whole fiasco.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Reginos,  I can't agree but I concede this is highly subjective.  For me the yardstick is that I want a new sports car and the 991/981 does not qualify IMO because for all its talent it is just not engaging to drive.  

Apias, the GT3 is a road car with some motorsport features and it is very good on track but it is miles away from a race car. 

Gen II Cayman S

GR:

  For me the yardstick is that I want a new sports car and the 991/981 does not qualify IMO because for all its talent it is just not engaging to drive.  

 

Enlight me please-what car for you is "engaging" to drive?

KresoF1:

GR:

  For me the yardstick is that I want a new sports car and the 991/981 does not qualify IMO because for all its talent it is just not engaging to drive.  

 

Enlight me please-what car for you is "engaging" to drive?

 he proabably means F40, Mclaren F1, 997CUP, Carrera GT..this kind of thing. I agree to this ..however, Im a poor man - have only driven once a C-GT..and it is not only "engaging" ..but fascinating.

PS: the Name "GT3" - comes from race car - "GT3 CUP"..if it was called 991 GTS...no one would lament about it..

I want a sports car to faithfully transmit the front tyre loads through the weight of the steering, at all speeds and especially in difficult conditions such as bumpy roads and/or variable grip conditions.  The 991/981 categorically fails this simple test unlike the predecessors.  I prefer the steering to be constantly giving low level messages about what the front wheels are doing.  The 997/987 fails this test too but the 996/986 are better (if not quite perfect). 

Gen II Cayman S

GR:

Apias, the GT3 is a road car with some motorsport features and it is very good on track but it is miles away from a race car. 

I haven't driven one, but it seems to me more of a motorsport ("race") inspired car tamed for the street. So, while not strictly speaking a "race car", its personality seems more "race" (track, motosport, ...) than "sport". 

Not all sports cars are GTs to be sure (the Boxster/Cayman, for example, are sports cars but aren't gran turismo cars) and not all GTs are sports cars, but it seems that the 911 Carerra/Turbo have always been sports cars that are also GT cars, and there's absolutely nothing negative about that, personal preferences aside.

GR:

I want a sports car to faithfully transmit the front tyre loads through the weight of the steering, at all speeds and especially in difficult conditions such as bumpy roads and/or variable grip conditions.  The 991/981 categorically fails this simple test unlike the predecessors.  I prefer the steering to be constantly giving low level messages about what the front wheels are doing.  The 997/987 fails this test too but the 996/986 are better (if not quite perfect). 

You still have not answered my question... I want a example what (sports)car is "engaging" to drive for you?

GR:

I want a sports car to faithfully transmit the front tyre loads through the weight of the steering, at all speeds and especially in difficult conditions such as bumpy roads and/or variable grip conditions.  The 991/981 categorically fails this simple test unlike the predecessors.  I prefer the steering to be constantly giving low level messages about what the front wheels are doing.  The 997/987 fails this test too but the 996/986 are better (if not quite perfect). 

This will keep you from falling asleep:

Porsche and Lotus are my favourites so:

987 and 997 -20mm Coupe are OK, 996/997 GT3, 996 Coupe/986, 993, 964 etc all good to a greater or lesser extent

All modern era Lotus (the Evora power steering is excellent and the unassisted cars are a delight)

I've also experienced a couple of Ferraris, F355 and F360.  The former was marginal for engagement on the road (better on track) but the latter did not engage me from a driving point of view. 

For non sports cars the previous Clio RS was impressive and I rated the Mk1 Mini (I had a 2002 model)

Gen II Cayman S

If the issue involves opening up the engine for major surgery Porsche should reduce the price of the car to those that took delivery and those waiting for delivery. In addition, they need to extend the warranty and make it transferable. 

The amount of the reduction needs to be enough to reflect engine overhaul on a new car, inconvenience, loss of use and reduced resale value. 

Hopefully the fix is simple and does not involve engine overhaul.

nberry:

If the issue involves opening up the engine for major surgery Porsche should reduce the price of the car to those that took delivery and those waiting for delivery. In addition, they need to extend the warranty and make it transferable. 

The amount of the reduction needs to be enough to reflect engine overhaul on a new car, inconvenience, loss of use and reduced resale value. 

Hopefully the fix is simple and does not involve engine overhaul.

Though Porsche could get away with applying the fix under warranty and offer nothing save a free driving day at your local Porsche Experience Center... And they would most likely get away with it too!

--

RS60 Spyder, 991 GT3 RS pending :)

GR:

I struggle with defining the latest 991/981 models as sports cars because they seem to me more like very sporting GTs.  I'm not saying they are bad cars because performance and handling are beyond reproach but the level of feedback is inadequate for my definition of  a sports car.   Based on reviews, the one exception would be the GT3 but they're not building those at the moment 

No struggle here. Having just taken delivery of a 991 4S and previously owned four 997 cars pre- and post-faceift... the 991 is as much sports car. If not more  It laps the Ring one second faster than the 997.2 GT3, it has brilliant handling beyond the 997 Carreras and feels mental in Sport Plus mode.

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE
2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

reginos:

TB993tt:

I have been told by someone who knows a lot about conrods that the 991 GT3 conrods are not strong enough for their rated output and revs (yes he/she has had a good look at them)

It sounds to me like Porsche are succuming to VW group pressure on price/spec of parts and the old way of Porsche engineering has been changed.....  

There were plenty of issues long before VW. From chain tensioners to cracking cylinder studs on the air cooled SC and Carrera, serious cylinder head leakages on the 964 etc. Moreover, the notorious RMS and IMS problems afflicted engines engineered before the VW takeover.

Porsche 911s were never 100% reliable contrary to popular belief. Just in the old days very few people owned such cars and news relating to problems didn't interest the many. And there was no internet, too!

--

"Form follows function"

100%  Perspective is essential. 

--

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

boytronic:

nberry:

If the issue involves opening up the engine for major surgery Porsche should reduce the price of the car to those that took delivery and those waiting for delivery. In addition, they need to extend the warranty and make it transferable. 

The amount of the reduction needs to be enough to reflect engine overhaul on a new car, inconvenience, loss of use and reduced resale value. 

Hopefully the fix is simple and does not involve engine overhaul.

Though Porsche could get away with applying the fix under warranty and offer nothing save a free driving day at your local Porsche Experience Center... And they would most likely get away with it too!

--

RS60 Spyder, 991 GT3 RS pending :)

Probably right. Nevertheless, the issue for Porsche is not what they can get away with but to treat their customers right. Assuming the issue is engine failure then Porsche not only needs to make it right but to overextend themselves and provide the present owners and those waiting to take delivery an exceptional compensation package.