Crown

boytronic:

Boxster Coupe GTS is back!

Finally looks like the new GT3 has grown on CH.

This is the greatest GT3 in history and the future direction is now set - this is the next level :)

Still not sure why CH compared the GT3 to the C63 BS and the AM...these cars are out of it's (GT3) league. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Sadly must report that in the past week five GT3's have burned in Europe. Something to do with the oil coolant exchange. Porsche is trying to determine whether the dealer can correct the problem which implies a major fix.

If Porsche needs to send specialist from Germany for the repair, these cars will be sitting for a long time.

nberry:

Sadly must report that in the past week five GT3's have burned in Europe. Something to do with the oil coolant exchange. Porsche is trying to determine whether the dealer can correct the problem which implies a major fix.

If Porsche needs to send specialist from Germany for the repair, these cars will be sitting for a long time.

Engine oil or transmission oil heat exchanger?  

fritz

nberry:

Sadly must report that in the past week five GT3's have burned in Europe. Something to do with the oil coolant exchange. Porsche is trying to determine whether the dealer can correct the problem which implies a major fix.

If Porsche needs to send specialist from Germany for the repair, these cars will be sitting for a long time.

Do you have any source for this?

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Yes, the President of the Italian Porsche club posted this information. His friend's car had 60Km when it burned.

Fritz, he describe it as the oil exchange but he was getting the information second hand.

nberry:

Yes, the President of the Italian Porsche club posted this information. His friend's car had 60Km when it burned.

Fritz, he describe it as the oil exchange but he was getting the information second hand.

Where?

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Where what? The President or the car? I assume both are in Italy.

Here is his post;

I am the administrator of Porsche Club Campania, an Italian porsche club. A member of our Club last Saturday was near Avellino, in the south of Italy, his gt3 was really new, just 60kms. First the warning LOW OIL PRESSURE in the display and after few seconds his GT3 was burning. The gt3 DESTROYED is now at the PORSCHE CENTER NAPOLI and this morning an engineer from Stuttgart came here to see the car. It is the 5th gt3 in Europe that burned with the same problem. It seems that Porsche already know where is the problem but I don't know if the dealer will be able to fix the problem. I will keep you updated

He said it was related to the oil exchange bracket.

So this is from Rennlist? Thanks. 

I doubt that Porsche (or that engineer from Porsche) would give any details about other cases, so this sounds a little bit of weird.

I don't say it isn't true but we should be careful with claims on the internet, even if it is from the admin of a Porsche club in Italy.

All I heard is that there is a delivery embargo in place (even in Germany) and that an investigation is going on.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Apparently the problem is related to the oil coolant bracket. it involves later production cars and we I asked why here is the answer which makes sense.

nberry:

Apparently the problem is related to the oil coolant bracket. it involves later production cars and we I asked why here is the answer which makes sense.

 

Actually Nick, all the parts for Porsche products are made JIT. Its a supply chain management and QC piece. The bolt and bracket design have not changed, however the parts are supplied as built and made in batches by supplier likewise so there may have been an issue with their the quality of the later componentry. All I can tell you is that the issue affects later production vehicles and is a simple fix. The "engine related component" statement is a little misleading. As I understand it, in effect its a much smaller job than replacing the Thermostat (which requires full evacuation of the coolant). Its funny. Excuse my tounge in cheek. I have to have a giggle here uin my hammock. I live on a small coral island in the middle of the pacific linked by a satellite to a thread hosted in the greatest nation on earth and Im giving you guys the facts.....somethings wrong LOL

 

Assuming that your facts are...facts. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

So this is from Rennlist? Thanks. 

I doubt that Porsche (or that engineer from Porsche) would give any details about other cases, so this sounds a little bit of weird.

I don't say it isn't true but we should be careful with claims on the internet, even if it is from the admin of a Porsche club in Italy.

All I heard is that there is a delivery embargo in place (even in Germany) and that an investigation is going on.

the GT3 that burned down in switzerland is confirmed though. 

991 GT3 is the 458 successor, no wonder it beat 12C at magny cours

Feel for the lads/ladies who've seen their GT3's flambe'd......would hope the PAG response team is rather well on the task...

BTW...at the risk of spurring the GT3 v Turbo debate..(again)....Apolo1 on Pistonheads posted some interesting observations, to wit:

" AD, I was in Germany,last week, Macann and RS, I enquired about this 475, been told nearer to 500 once the few k miles under the belt.( Which would explain) I have done a rolling 30mph start same road, all cars in max attack mode, LP700, 12C, tts, gt3, can not say at what speed, but after 1/3rd mile.....

The GT3 has it, just through

for the avoidance of doubt....I stand by every word, in the case of the TTS, if it helps had just come off track/On track and the Cups were very warm...the GT3 gear box seems to alter its responsiveness (EDIT) the harder you drive...I give you my word, not a lot in it, but the Gt3, had the edge..in gear, 0-100 might be different.....LC, 4 x drive, torque, ect, but in the gear, the GT3"

He has both a TTS and GT3....not to mention an RS 4.0....quite the stable....

cf: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=48&t=1267552&i=999999&nmt=Prospective%20991%20GT3%20Owners%20...

As long as the car burns within the warranty period, which is certain if it is faulty, what is the problem?

The customer will get a new one for free and perhaps have a chance to revise his original spec, too.

Why all the fuss

--

"Form follows function"

reginos:

As long as the car burns within the warranty period, which is certain if it is faulty, what is the problem?

The customer will get a new one for free and perhaps have a chance to revise his original spec, too.

Why all the fuss

--

"Form follows function"

have you been in a burning car? i have....not nice. it can go very fast.

andyFE:

reginos:

As long as the car burns within the warranty period, which is certain if it is faulty, what is the problem?

The customer will get a new one for free and perhaps have a chance to revise his original spec, too.

Why all the fuss

--

"Form follows function"

 

have you been in a burning car? i have....not nice. it can go very fast.

No, but I can imagine it must be very disquieting.

However, in all the reported cases of similar incidences with several types of cars, no casualties have been caused. No guarantees for the next one of course, but it might not be automatically hazardous.

"Form follows function"

reginos:

As long as the car burns within the warranty period, which is certain if it is faulty, what is the problem?

The customer will get a new one for free and perhaps have a chance to revise his original spec, too.

Why all the fuss

a mechanical failure is one thing but catching on fire is extremely serious, not only dangeorus for the occupants, but also a burning car itslef can burn down anything next to it, imagine that it happens inside when you are parking the car in house's garage...

Carlos from Spain:

reginos:

As long as the car burns within the warranty period, which is certain if it is faulty, what is the problem?

The customer will get a new one for free and perhaps have a chance to revise his original spec, too.

Why all the fuss

 

a mechanical failure is one thing but catching on fire is extremely serious, not only dangeorus for the occupants, but also a burning car itslef can burn down anything next to it, imagine that it happens inside when you are parking the car in house's garage...

Scary indeed! It would make a good scenario for an insurance advertisement. i think I will pass the GT3, like I passed the 458 before it 

On a more serious note, with all the extensive testing that manufacturers like Porsche do, why such things are not picked up prior to introduction? Do they use different suppliers on test cars than on production cars?

--

"Form follows function"

Top Gear uploaded this, perfect timing ?

Many of us have waited over a year to get our cars. To have one burn up after 60km is something you want us to take in stride? In my case, I will be shelling out over $150,000 for the car and to have to wait again is not something I am likely to do.

I work in a different industry but we still manufacture tens of thousands of electro-mechanical systems, which is relevant.  Many problems occur in the transition from small volume to large volume, for example:

• Production tooling/machinery doesn't lose calibration over 100 pre-production units but can when you get into the thousands of production volumes
• Tool wear might be higher than expected, resulting in out of spec components early on. 
• A different batch of source material might be in spec but the spec isn't adequate and pre-production didn't fully test the exteremes of tolerance.
• In order to win a contract a supplier might put the best team onto pre-production but they will not necessarily be available all the time for full production
• Production human errors occur, especially on new products
• And when a product is new the production test regime is largely new too so these errors might not be caught

Most problems are identified prior to release but something usually slips though.  On a product with required 95% reliability, we would expect to see less than 90% in the first few lots rising to to 97% after a while.   I'm guessing most car makers keep the early cars for its internal use so customers aren't affected.

It amazes me how reliable cars are now and from the start.  But I wouldn't buy a brand new model.  In fact I generally prefer the facelifted one and at least 6 months after its introduction.

Gen II Cayman S

A company from my town used to make plastic interior parts for Porsche (maybe the still do, I'm not sure)

When I asked a guy workinhg there what is a differece between a Porsche and a Peugeot part,he told me that every single Porsche part made is checked for defects, and only one out of 20 for Peugeot

GR:

I work in a different industry but we still manufacture tens of thousands of electro-mechanical systems, which is relevant.  Many problems occur in the transition from small volume to large volume, for example:

• Production tooling/machinery doesn't lose calibration over 100 pre-production units but can when you get into the thousands of production volumes
• Tool wear might be higher than expected, resulting in out of spec components early on. 
• A different batch of source material might be in spec but the spec isn't adequate and pre-production didn't fully test the exteremes of tolerance.
• In order to win a contract a supplier might put the best team onto pre-production but they will not necessarily be available all the time for full production
• Production human errors occur, especially on new products
• And when a product is new the production test regime is largely new too so these errors might not be caught

Most problems are identified prior to release but something usually slips though.  On a product with required 95% reliability, we would expect to see less than 90% in the first few lots rising to to 97% after a while.   I'm guessing most car makers keep the early cars for its internal use so customers aren't affected.

It amazes me how reliable cars are now and from the start.  But I wouldn't buy a brand new model.  In fact I generally prefer the facelifted one and at least 6 months after its introduction.

Very interesting synopsis.

I am also a believer in waiting for the facelift.

"Form follows function"

BiTurbo:

991 GT3 is the 458 successor, no wonder it beat 12C at magny cours

but the 12Cs dont sponaneously combust very often

2011 CTT, 2013 12C Spider, 2013 A5 cab, 2014 4Runner Trail Edition

Teething problems will inevitably happen with any man-made complex product; however, this defect appears not to be a relatively small quibble but instead something more severe.  I'm sure that the problem is relatively easy to rectify but this sounds like it should have been caught during testing, especially since this is a brand-new engine design, in a high-stress environment.  

andyFE:

RC:

So this is from Rennlist? Thanks. 

I doubt that Porsche (or that engineer from Porsche) would give any details about other cases, so this sounds a little bit of weird.

I don't say it isn't true but we should be careful with claims on the internet, even if it is from the admin of a Porsche club in Italy.

All I heard is that there is a delivery embargo in place (even in Germany) and that an investigation is going on.

the GT3 that burned down in switzerland is confirmed though. 

From time to time it happens that a cigarette (thrown away by others) enters the engine bay and...  No kidding.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

reginos:

 

On a more serious note, with all the extensive testing that manufacturers like Porsche do, why such things are not picked up prior to introduction? Do they use different suppliers on test cars than on production cars?

As far as I heard, the problems start with mass production of parts, when the output numbers get raised, sh.t happens.

Maybe I shouldn't say this but in my dealer's repair shop, there are two 991 Turbo S right now...both with issues (brake and software). None of these cars has more than 3000 km (one has only 1000 km as far as I heard).

Mine, the first dealer car, has been trouble free so far...almost 7000 km and no issues at all, driven hard at times.

My car was produced with the first batch of cars before the delivery embargo ended, the others not. 

Of course we can speculate now about the why and how but it seems Porsche needs to be more careful about supplier quality.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Even in a highly complex and well designed machine, small components operating outside their performance envelope  for even a short period can lead to catastrophic results.  Naturally I am referring to the rubber o-rings on the solid rocket boosters of the now mothballed space shuttle.  The problems with the GT3 are likely minor, despite some spectacular failures,  and will be corrected by Porsche. Owners will be made whole as the legal system says it. Perhaps the issue is the individual owner's tolerance for the teething pain which is understandable. 

--

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

Porsche is not being up front with what the problems are with the GT3. They failed to tell the dealers or their customers as to why there is a stop sale on the cars other than to say it is related to engine issues. 

Speculation has gone from an easy fix to the most recent out of Abu Dubai that some cars will need engine replacement because the rods are melting. Porsche needs to tell buyers like myself what the problem is and what it will take to fix it. The lack of explanation only leads to suspicion that Porsche does not know what the problem is.

I don't buy into the bullshit that Porsche knows what it is doing and will make it right. Porsche has a full plate with several new models and buyers are beginning to pay the price with quality issues.