Crown

frayed:

It is no secret that Nissan engineers are using the car's weight as an advantage and it seems to work.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

 

????

More Weight = advantage on the track????

 

I knew it. 

You always need to look at the whole package. The GT3 has been developed at the weight it has, same goes to the Turbo S. Now if you take the Turbo S, lower it (incl. a new spring rate and new PDCC setup) and shave off 100 kg of weight, it would drive circles around the GT3. I doubt however that Turbo S owners would be happy because they would basically have to forget about all comfort and daily driver capabilities.  Of course one could argue that this is valid for the GT3 too but I guess it is easier to shave off weight from the Turbo S than from the GT3.  Same goes to the chassis setup (easier to improve the Turbo S chassis).

This whole discussion is senseless. Spring and summer will arrive soon and people will experience for themselves how good, how bad or how fast their cars are. GT3 and Turbo S have just started entering the streets. 

Back to the GT3 discussion. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Leawood911:

RC - has Turbo-phillia Frayed.  I know, I have it too.  Boost...is a powerful drug.  I noticed in your list you have not mentioned a Turbo 911 in your past.  Drive one and then you will understand (and like the GT3 even more) - just don't buy one else you will be in the same boat as RC and needing to defend the indefensible (like defending PDK over Manual).

Seriously - More weight equals more traction and speed - look at how heavy the space rockets are...the g's and top speed are out of this world.

Right?

 

Ha!

Love boost, I still own a 964 Turbo 3.6.  One of few left in the US and rare enough the Germans want to buy it from me and re-import it to DE.  It has a balanced/blueprinted engine massaged turbo, but running near stock boost of durability.  The boost will make anyone giddy.  But I still like n/a engines especially on track.

OK, your race rocket analogy completely crushes my  thoughts on weight v. speed.  Gotcha!  ;)

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

frayed:

????

More Weight = advantage on the track????

 

For some people, black really is white..!

it's funny  how there is a minimum weight limit rather than a maximum, given how advantageous weight can be (according to RC)..!

I always loved turbo engines but so far, the 991 Turbo S is the first turbo charged car to satisfy my needs for a good throttle response and very little (turbo) lag. The GT3 is of course a completely different story, throttle response is amazing and revving is pure aural sex. For track fun, this is the perfect car in my opinion but sometimes I get the feeling that people concentrate too much on what they think the car delivers than on what they actually can deliver (driving skills).  A GT3 alone doesn't make you fast on the track, I'm afraid some GT3 owners will learn that the hard way.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Sidicks2:

frayed:

????

More Weight = advantage on the track????

 

For some people, black really is white..!

it's funny  how there is a minimum weight limit rather than a maximum, given how advantageous weight can be (according to RC)..!

I guess you are still mad at me because I banned you a couple of weeks ago? 

Did you really think I wouldn't notice? 

Keep on going...it will happen again.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

Sidicks2:

frayed:

????

More Weight = advantage on the track????

 

For some people, black really is white..!

it's funny  how there is a minimum weight limit rather than a maximum, given how advantageous weight can be (according to RC)..!

I guess you are still mad at me because I banned you a couple of weeks ago? 

Did you really think I wouldn't notice? 

Keep on going...it will happen again.

It's seems slightly strange and unfair that you can ban someone:

a) without warning

b) without any form of communication that this has been done

c) purely on the basis of someone having a different opinion to you or pointing out the inconsistencies / fallacies in your posts

That seems a particularly poor way to moderate a forum....

Perhaps you can point me towards which forum rules I broke to justify the ban?

Given my new username is sidicks2 rather than sidicks, I've hardly tried to hide my origins.

I am sorry that you feel that way. If you have complaints, please PM me.

The thing is: I accept criticism, even up to a point where it just reflects pure opportunism but when the number of opportunistic posts actually beats the number of posts filled with arguments (no matter how accurate or true they are), it gets really annoying. No offense meant.

Now we should let the others continue the GT3 discussion...(I was serious about the PM...I am a good listener).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

I am sorry that you feel that way. If you have complaints, please PM me.

The thing is: I accept criticism, even up to a point where it just reflects pure opportunism but when the number of opportunistic posts actually beats the number of posts filled with arguments (no matter how accurate or true they are), it gets really annoying. No offense meant.

Now we should let the others continue the GT3 discussion...(I was serious about the PM...I am a good listener).

How could I have Pm'd you when you'd taken my access away without explanation?

Let's move on....

:)

RC:

frayed:

Surely you are joking.  Do you actually believe that this motor would be even a remotely suitable platform to add a few hairdryers?

If you mean a modified GT3 motor with lower rev limit and lower compression. . . then I think that's already in your driveway?

I hate to disappoint you, the 991 Turbo S engine doesn't have much in common with the new GT3 engine. This is why I made the comment. The 991 Turbo S engine is new but still based on the "old" 997 Turbo S engine, even if they don't share many parts. A completely new Turbo engine will be very likely presented with the next 911 generation and I wouldn't mind if it is based on the completely new GT3 engine. Rev limiter to 8000 rpm (instead of the current 7200), adding three (not two) turbo chargers and the car would be amazing.

Btw: I think you got GT3-philia, you should get treatment. Best done by a Turbo S blowing you off.  

 

Hey RC, be careful the way you phrase your words... In our side of the world blowing someone off is a sexual act performed by a girl on a boy...

Well, the GT3 was quicker in most test (apart from one actually, that was half of the supertest the Hockenheim time)… and yet you still say the Turbo S is faster xD… Nevermind… actually on the Nordschleife it was slower also with semi-slicks… but yeah, was too cold xD… Always excuses… 

No doubt, one can tune the TTS to be faster, but then one could also tune the GT3 to be faster...

And the rubbish with  more weight is  better. ---> that is all marketing of Nissan… or tell me one reason why the GTR race car is as light as the regulations allow it to be??! Yep, coz it is slower this way and Nissan want to lose xD…

I bet with you the next GTR will be a lot lighter and then they say that is coz now it can be faster… (same as Porsche said with the  997 GTX XX -> they said m-transmissions are better/faster but actually the mezger just didn't fit the PDK in the 997 chassis… a fact that I got from Walter Röhrl btw) … but never mind 

On around 95% of tracks 991 GT3 is faster then 991 Turbo S, if both are equiped with same tires(Cups or Dunlops). This is the fact.

On the autobahn situation is different, but 90% of 991 GT3 buyers do not care about that...

I would personally go for 991 GT3 IF Porsche did not made one IMHO strange decision about all GTx sportscars-they are stanard with so-called semi-slicks. This tires are almost non-driveable on very wet road and low temperature.

Leawood911:

RC - has Turbo-phillia Frayed.  I know, I have it too.  Boost...is a powerful drug.  I noticed in your list you have not mentioned a Turbo 911 in your past.  Drive one and then you will understand (and like the GT3 even more) - just don't buy one else you will be in the same boat as RC and needing to defend the indefensible (like defending PDK over Manual).

Seriously - More weight equals more traction and speed - look at how heavy the space rockets are...the g's and top speed are out of this world.

Right?

 

sorry, but with all due respect the space rocket analogy is pure nonsense. they are heavy because they need to carry the fuel needed to overcome gravity and in this quest every gram more in rocket weight is an enemy.

as far as cars go, weight cannot be used 'to an advantage' for dynamic qualities, it is just a byproduct of making cars safe and comfortable while still keeping the price down. and certainly, it can be an advantage in certain accidents. other than that, weight has to be fought off with electronics and sometimes it works even well (see the turbo S). nevertheless, when you drive a panamera on a mountain pass in the dolomites and claim you do not feel the weight, then either you are lying, or, worse, plain ignorant. analogously in a turbo S, with all its dynamic qualities and super traction, the weight can be felt. 

the weight difference (and the cassis layout) is the reason why the GT3 can keep up with the much more powerful turbo S.

andyFE:

Leawood911:

RC - has Turbo-phillia Frayed.  I know, I have it too.  Boost...is a powerful drug.  I noticed in your list you have not mentioned a Turbo 911 in your past.  Drive one and then you will understand (and like the GT3 even more) - just don't buy one else you will be in the same boat as RC and needing to defend the indefensible (like defending PDK over Manual).

Seriously - More weight equals more traction and speed - look at how heavy the space rockets are...the g's and top speed are out of this world.

Right?

 

sorry, but with all due respect the space rocket analogy is pure nonsense. they are heavy because they need to carry the fuel needed to overcome gravity and in this quest every gram more in rocket weight is an enemy.

as far as cars go, weight cannot be used 'to an advantage' for dynamic qualities, it is just a byproduct of making cars safe and comfortable while still keeping the price down. and certainly, it can be an advantage in certain accidents. other than that, weight has to be fought off with electronics and sometimes it works even well (see the turbo S). nevertheless, when you drive a panamera on a mountain pass in the dolomites and claim you do not feel the weight, then either you are lying, or, worse, plain ignorant. analogously in a turbo S, with all its dynamic qualities and super traction, the weight can be felt. 

the weight difference (and the cassis layout) is the reason why the GT3 can keep up with the much more powerful turbo S.

So I'm pretty sure Leawood meant his post in jest.  You know, English humor and all.  Oh wait. . .

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

frayed:

andyFE:

Leawood911:

RC - has Turbo-phillia Frayed.  I know, I have it too.  Boost...is a powerful drug.  I noticed in your list you have not mentioned a Turbo 911 in your past.  Drive one and then you will understand (and like the GT3 even more) - just don't buy one else you will be in the same boat as RC and needing to defend the indefensible (like defending PDK over Manual).

Seriously - More weight equals more traction and speed - look at how heavy the space rockets are...the g's and top speed are out of this world.

Right?

 

sorry, but with all due respect the space rocket analogy is pure nonsense. they are heavy because they need to carry the fuel needed to overcome gravity and in this quest every gram more in rocket weight is an enemy.

as far as cars go, weight cannot be used 'to an advantage' for dynamic qualities, it is just a byproduct of making cars safe and comfortable while still keeping the price down. and certainly, it can be an advantage in certain accidents. other than that, weight has to be fought off with electronics and sometimes it works even well (see the turbo S). nevertheless, when you drive a panamera on a mountain pass in the dolomites and claim you do not feel the weight, then either you are lying, or, worse, plain ignorant. analogously in a turbo S, with all its dynamic qualities and super traction, the weight can be felt. 

the weight difference (and the cassis layout) is the reason why the GT3 can keep up with the much more powerful turbo S.

 

So I'm pretty sure Leawood meant his post in jest.  You know, English humor and all.  Oh wait. . .

ok then:::)))))

KresoF1:

I would personally go for 991 GT3 IF Porsche did not made one IMHO strange decision about all GTx sportscars-they are stanard with so-called semi-slicks. This tires are almost non-driveable on very wet road and low temperature.

 

To be fair, reports from owners suggest that the new Cup 2 tyres are much better in adverse conditions than the old versions.  Plus of course if you can afford a $150k for a GT3 then surely you could afford another $1300 for a set of Michelin Supersport tyres to replace the Cups?  You could even sell those cups on to someone else!

Sidicks2:

KresoF1:

I would personally go for 991 GT3 IF Porsche did not made one IMHO strange decision about all GTx sportscars-they are stanard with so-called semi-slicks. This tires are almost non-driveable on very wet road and low temperature.

 

To be fair, reports from owners suggest that the new Cup 2 tyres are much better in adverse conditions than the old versions.  Plus of course if you can afford a $150k for a GT3 then surely you could afford another $1300 for a set of Michelin Supersport tyres to replace the Cups?  You could even sell those cups on to someone else!

 

 

Let me tell you one thing-most 991 GT3 owners are "interesting spicies" and they are not very objective at all in their views.

My P source(who works for P) is very clear about tires for 991 GT3-only approved summer tires are Michelin Cups and Dunlop Sport Maxx. He told me that P Zeros which are standard on 991 Turbo can be used but, 991 GT3 suspension is tuned by factory for use with semi-slicks.

His advice about usage of 991 GT3 as daily driver was pretty straight forward-this car is not designed for daily driver usage. Buy 991 Turbo or Turbo S instead-it is our all weather, all year sportscar which can be used as daily driver without any problem.

Remark about what someone could afford or not is out of place here. On my market 991 Turbo S is costing around €310K with local taxes and I can pay it without any problem....

KresoF1:

[...]

His advice about usage of 991 GT3 as daily driver was pretty straight forward-this car is not designed for daily driver usage. Buy 991 Turbo or Turbo S instead-it is our all weather, all year sportscar which can be used as daily driver without any problem.

[...]

 

It would also be a waste not to drive the GT3 the way it was engineered to. Such a car should at least see a couple of tracks a year. Buying a GT3 as a daily driver is like buying a racing horse for soft trail riding in the forest.

Porsche 911 GT3 - Guards Red 997 MKII Clubsport

Yes, and like I said:
- GT3: great on track (I suppose, I will test that soon), OK on road (this car is not my favorite for everyday use)
- 458 Italia : great on road, good on track (if you are rich enough to change the CC brakes).

igirl:

Yes, and like I said:
- GT3: great on track (I suppose, I will test that soon), OK on road (this car is not my favorite for everyday use)
- 458 Italia : great on road, good on track (if you are rich enough to change the CC brakes).

please be careful when you say something positive about the 458 italia on rennteam. there are people here who would just be ashamed to be seen in a 458::::)))

andyFE:

igirl:

Yes, and like I said:
- GT3: great on track (I suppose, I will test that soon), OK on road (this car is not my favorite for everyday use)
- 458 Italia : great on road, good on track (if you are rich enough to change the CC brakes).

please be careful when you say something positive about the 458 italia on rennteam. there are people here who would just be ashamed to be seen in a 458::::)))

Did someone call my name?   

Suzy

2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic
2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
 

SuzyF:

andyFE:

igirl:

Yes, and like I said:
- GT3: great on track (I suppose, I will test that soon), OK on road (this car is not my favorite for everyday use)
- 458 Italia : great on road, good on track (if you are rich enough to change the CC brakes).

please be careful when you say something positive about the 458 italia on rennteam. there are people here who would just be ashamed to be seen in a 458::::)))

Did someone call my name?   

for you suzy, only the F458 speciale would do

Hahaha 

Suzy

2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic
2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
 

Leawood911:

Interesting Italian article.  I can certainly see how over certain speeds the GT3 can be quicker - given weight,gearing and still some Turbo lag (not mentioned in the discussion but still present). 

For this reason the Gt3 has a certain amount of appeal to me and Porsche is showing us a perfect example of the characters of these two fine cars given the results and discussion.  In the end nothing substitutes for the shove of torque to excess which only the turbo can provide.  I don't have the balls to rev the Gt3 to 9K on the streets to go fast but I do have the cunning to extract boost sliently and in buckets at the drop of a hat on the street in the turbo.  Boost rules in my book. 

RC - speak softly and carry a big stick - there is no need to get into a pissing contest AT ALL.  Accept that there is clearly some Turbo lag, extra weight to motivate and more mechanical work to do (due to the gearing) which is likely the cause for a short delay and confusing numbers.  For example the 40-200 figure is with both cars starting from that speed not with them blasting through that speed with full boost on tap.

BTW - do the math on the gearing and you will have a hard time figuring out why the GT3 is not MUCH faster yet (Torque is of course the answer).

++++++++++

Bravo for your reply.  RC seems to want to control everything even in situations where he cannot bring evidence to the table, which is a nuisance to many readers.  How many hours does he spend behind his computer to track the minute comment to be on top of it?  Does he have any job to keep him busy before he makes money to pay for his cars?

Mullh:

Motorsport France tested the GT3 in this months issue… :D … Impressive lap time etc…  nearly 2 Seconds quicker than 991 TTS 

http://abload.de/img/bildschirmfoto2014-02mlkyn.png

+++++++++++++++++

Yes, but the Corvette Stingray also tested in the same magazine is as fast in all the corners as the GT3.  I think the Corvette is the revelation, not the GT3.  The future Z06 will be a killer.

PS

on top of that, the Corvette was on its regular tires which are not as sticky as those fitted on the GT3

PBS2010:

PS

on top of that, the Corvette was on its regular tires which are not as sticky as those fitted on the GT3

The Corvette made a good / great lap time. But not as great as the GT3's one. So what's the point?

Corvettes have always been great performers.  But (i) you have to be willing to be seen in one, (ii) build quality is always suspect, and (iii) they have never felt as precise or as stout as 911s in general.

But for a track weapon or if on a budget they are killer machines.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

igirl:

PBS2010:

PS

on top of that, the Corvette was on its regular tires which are not as sticky as those fitted on the GT3

The Corvette made a good / great lap time. But not as great as the GT3's one. So what's the point?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

What’s the point?  The basic point is that the Corvette Stingray, also tested in the same (great) magazine, is as fast in the corners as the GT3.  That is the short version.  A variant of this short version is that if you bought your car for track time only, you may have wasted your money!

The longer version is this:

One is rightly stunned by the track time achieved by the GT3 at the Magny Cours Club track.

Now let us analyze where the GT3 is making speed.  Luckily, the same magazine also tested the Corvette Stingray (European spec of course), and both tests were performed in similar conditions (same track, etc…). Some detailed data is given on the performance of each car during its record lap time, in terms of speed and Gs in a certain number of reference corners, with the addition of the top straight-line speed.  Usual stuff for Motorsport Magazine.

The GT3 makes a killing in the straight where it achieves a top speed of 210 km/H vs 197 km/H for the Corvette (6,6% faster than the Corvette, if my calculation is correct).  However, in the turns, it is not so far ahead:  65 km/H in the hairpin vs 66 km/H (so slower than the Stingray).  In the other turns they are basically idem, save the “pif/paf” (kink) where the GT3 is clearly ahead (5.88% faster), a surprising outcome for the GT3 whose weight distribution is much worse than the 50/50 of the Corvette -- most probably due to the RWS of the GT3 – I would be interested in reading expert opinion about that.

And again, on top of that, the Corvette is on “street” tires while the GT3 has the Pilot Cup tires.

To summarize what I read from this data:  the GT3 is faster than the Stingray only in a straight line (I would hate to be told I only lapped someone because I was faster in the straight).  The kink speed is faster, but so little time is spent in the kink.  The better time achieved by the GT3 vs the Stingray is therefore coming only from its much faster straight-line speed.

That is really a surprise given how much praise has gone to the GT3, most of which based on test drives in isolation or, even worse, based on unsubstantiated fanaticism for the brand.

One last fact for consideration:  Higher up in this forum, in the heated exchanges on which is best (Turbo S vs GT3), someone quoted that, on the Nordschleife, the Turbo S fitted with the same tires as the GT3 was faster than the GT3.  It implies that more power makes the difference.  May be the GT3 is not so much of a handling genius afterall.  Despite all the marketing crap, the 911 is maybe reaching its limitations.

My respect for the Corvette folks goes very high and my opinion regarding the yet arrogant Porsche is damaged.

I am always cautious to wait until I gather reliable reviews and tests data before embarking on a new car, and resist succumbing to the “buzz”.  I am glad I did.

BTW, to rub it in, the Stingray sounds best and if the forthcoming Z06 sound as great as the ZR1 that will be a riot.

Cheers.

frayed:

Corvettes have always been great performers.  But (i) you have to be willing to be seen in one, (ii) build quality is always suspect, and (iii) they have never felt as precise or as stout as 911s in general.

But for a track weapon or if on a budget they are killer machines.

++++++++++++++++++++

I agree, but let's wait until the new Z06 is out.