Crown

Some might say (excuse the Clarkson there) that the 991 Turbo S, Panamera Turbo S and the Cayenne Turbo S are actually the standard versions for each of their model ranges and that the lesser equipped versions of them are priced to give the less moneyed a opportunity to enjoy at least part of the experience.

Everyone here has noticed the increase in prices recently.  Perhaps the recent higher MSRPs are not based on any real "purchase" market price calculation, but more from what Porsche's market data people deduce from their analysis of customer profiles as to what a customer is willing to pay for a monthly lease.  And that the results of that second calculation is what is actually pushing MSRP "prices" higher. 

I wonder how much more upward their prices can go before they just seem unreasonably overpriced even for a lease deal?

JimFlat6 

I wonder how much more upward their prices can go before they just seem unreasonably overpriced even for a lease deal?

    I don't see an upper limit until buyers stop "buying"

964C2:

JimFlat6 

I wonder how much more upward their prices can go before they just seem unreasonably overpriced even for a lease deal?

    I don't see an upper limit until buyers stop "buying"

In Germany, as far as I know, the majority of Porsche cars are leased. Not sure how this affects the MSRP though. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

964C2:

JimFlat6 

I wonder how much more upward their prices can go before they just seem unreasonably overpriced even for a lease deal?

    I don't see an upper limit until buyers stop "buying"

 

In Germany, as far as I know, the majority of Porsche cars are leased. Not sure how this affects the MSRP though. 

Thats only true for the Cayenne and Panamera. I just had a business meeting with Porsche FS and they told me that the majority of 911s are bought. Actually out of my own experience... I would never ever lease a 911 (at least not to current conditions). The lease is just outrages high compared to similar priced cars from other vendors. And considering that the Porsche might have the highest resale value out of the competition, it doesnt make sense at all why the lease is 50% higher than i.e. a BMW 6Series or Mercedes SL).... I just dont get that!

Well...the Cayenne and Panamera are the majority Porsche models. 

The 911 lease isn't that expensive, there are now some quite interesting lease offers incl. high rebates from dealers.

As to resale value, I am glad I didn't buy my former 997 Carrera GTS Cab. My dealer couldn't sell the car for almost 18 months and they had to retrofit a couple of things and reduce the price tag by 10k EUR. 

Example: Car was 138k EUR new. Dealer sold it for under 95k EUR or so. 6000 km only. Ouch.

In the end, there isn't much difference between buying and leasing over here in Germany but you save yourself from the hassle to sell an expensive car (make no mistake, if you want to "profit" from buying instead of leasing, you need to sell this car privately, which can be a pain in the a..). 

I bought a Porsche twice and both times, I regretted it. Never again. Or let me give you another example: A guy I know owns a 997 Turbo S and he wanted the new 991 Turbo S. He left the car months(!!!) at a dealership to be sold, no chance. He tried to sell this car through various car magazines and the internet, no chance. A couple of buyers wanted to do test drives with the car, which of course he would only agree as a passenger. One of these guys almost crashed the car on the Autobahn, he was driving a BMW 335i and came to money from an inheritance. Others wanted just to do a test-drive to drive a 911 Turbo S, they weren't serious about buying the car (but this is something he could easily detect). Then he tried through a dealership again, several test drives, one scratched a rim, they didn't buy the car. He sold the car at 110k EUR flat to a guy from Spain(!), the deal was done through the dealership (which of course also took a couple of thousands for the deal, doing the documents, securing the money, etc.). Car was 187k EUR new, he asked 130k EUR for it, he bought it 20 months ago and had only 12k km on it. He spent almost 10(!) months selling this car and it was really a horrible experience. Now he ordered a 991 Turbo S (he couldn't order it before selling his old car) and he gets his car next year in spring. He actually wanted the dealer's first or second car to drive this autumn. He started advertising his car back in February when his dealer told him that the 991 Turbo S is coming. Btw: This time, he leased the car. He never wants to go through the same trouble again.

To each his own I guess but my experience with leasing cars is excellent and overall, the difference between how much money you "loose" (buying or leasing) is in the range of 5%...at max., unless you really find somebody who really wants YOUR car and is ready to pay the asking price for it.

In the past, Porsche cars held their values pretty well but nowadays, I don't think so. Look at offers of used 991 for example, some are incredible and I'm referring to dealer offers with warranty, not even private offers.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

So my extension, given the depreciation is the largest cost of ownership for 2-3 years from new, leases will soon increase in order to offset the lower residual? This is what puzzled me when you spoke of Macan rates - as surely a car with stronger residuals (albeit perceived at this point) will be worth more at the end of the term?

991 (what a car!) XC90 - Black/Black 2 kids, 1 dog

RC:

I bought a Porsche twice and both times, I regretted it. Never again. Or let me give you another example: A guy I know owns a 997 Turbo S and he wanted the new 991 Turbo S. He left the car months(!!!) at a dealership to be sold, no chance. He tried to sell this car through various car magazines and the internet, no chance. A couple of buyers wanted to do test drives with the car, which of course he would only agree as a passenger. One of these guys almost crashed the car on the Autobahn, he was driving a BMW 335i and came to money from an inheritance. Others wanted just to do a test-drive to drive a 911 Turbo S, they weren't serious about buying the car (but this is something he could easily detect). Then he tried through a dealership again, several test drives, one scratched a rim, they didn't buy the car. He sold the car at 110k EUR flat to a guy from Spain(!), the deal was done through the dealership (which of course also took a couple of thousands for the deal, doing the documents, securing the money, etc.). Car was 187k EUR new, he asked 130k EUR for it, he bought it 20 months ago and had only 12k km on it. He spent almost 10(!) months selling this car and it was really a horrible experience. Now he ordered a 991 Turbo S (he couldn't order it before selling his old car) and he gets his car next year in spring. He actually wanted the dealer's first or second car to drive this autumn. He started advertising his car back in February when his dealer told him that the 991 Turbo S is coming. Btw: This time, he leased the car. He never wants to go through the same trouble again.

 

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Why didn't he turn the car into the dealer as part of the payment for the new turbo?  You are not going to get the same money as if you sell it privately but you should get a fair price and not have to bother with having to sell it privately. I have never sold a car privately myself, don't want to deal with that at all.

^^^ that's exactly what i was thinking.... When you take in account all the costs that he had to make in those 10 months, he would have probably lost less when he traded the car in as a payment for the new car.

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Suzy

 

I've traded back to dealer - used same dealer to sell as private sale - also used them to sale\return and most recently, private sale via online advertising. It's unlikely I'd ever do the latter again with P-car. Way too much hassle. I "saved" £4K which isn't to be sniffed at - but when all's said & done - not worth it!

991 (what a car!) XC90 - Black/Black 2 kids, 1 dog

RC that is pretty funny story  I wonder how on Earth people like you described even earn so much money in first place. His decision on how to sell so expensive car is just hilarious (i dont want to use harder word) 

My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com

FWIW, Porsche encourages leasing because they want the car back to resell. I've done leasing twice and probably will never do it again. Basically you are renting the car often at $100 a day if not more AND you are restricted as to how much you can drive it. Also, there is a reduction in value based on the condition of the car when you turn it in.

With the GT3 I will write a check and be done with it. Selling a car is not difficult especially if it is priced right. NEVER, NEVER allow a test drive. They can have their mechanic inspect it and I will provide service records. But that is it.

Selling expensive cars privately can be a hassle . Cheaper ones, are easy . The key is : selling it at the adequate price !  Often people evaluate their cars too much ….

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Carlos from Spain:

Why didn't he turn the car into the dealer as part of the payment for the new turbo?  You are not going to get the same money as if you sell it privately but you should get a fair price and not have to bother with having to sell it privately. I have never sold a car privately myself, don't want to deal with that at all.

You don't want to know what the dealer offered him... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Milanno:

RC that is pretty funny story  I wonder how on Earth people like you described even earn so much money in first place. His decision on how to sell so expensive car is just hilarious (i dont want to use harder word) 

This guy owns a consulting firm in my region and works up to 90 hours per week (he is divorced, guess why). We sometimes meet for coffee or a nice drive with our cars on the weekend. He is highly intelligent but he has very little time at his hand. I don't think I would have had the courage and patience to do what he did, I would have just given the keys to my local dealer, telling him "sell it, take your bonus". Or I would have given the dealer the car to take in, in exchange for the new one (which would have probably been a great loss for me).

Time is money. People who work all day don't have time to hassle around with selling a car.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

nberry:

FWIW, Porsche encourages leasing because they want the car back to resell. I've done leasing twice and probably will never do it again. Basically you are renting the car often at $100 a day if not more AND you are restricted as to how much you can drive it. Also, there is a reduction in value based on the condition of the car when you turn it in.

With the GT3 I will write a check and be done with it. Selling a car is not difficult especially if it is priced right. NEVER, NEVER allow a test drive. They can have their mechanic inspect it and I will provide service records. But that is it.

I have a fixed max. mileage at the start of the lease and unless I scratch the car from top to bottom, I just return it to the dealer and I'm done with it. "Normal wear" is part of the lease over here, they cannot charge you for that and they usually don't. Also, if I want to drive more km with my car, I just do it and pay a certain amount (it is in the contract) per km on top at the end of the lease. There is no hidden cost, no risk, I just return the car and I'm done. Wonderful.

Look at me now: I don't need the Cayenne GTS anymore but I want a Boxster S. I just switched lease contracts, I pay the same amount I paid for the Cayenne and I have the Boxster S for three years. Wonderful...again. No hassle, new (well, slightly used) car, everything is perfect for me. Yes, I may have "lost" a couple of thousands of EUR in the process but I spare myself the hassle, the risk and the annoyance to drive a car I don't need anymore for another two years. At the end of the Boxster S lease, I can even buy the car out for a pretty interesting price (if I am interested), so everything is just peachy. 

Yes, you could achieve a better price when buying and selling the same car after three years but you have no guarantee . Also, I don't think that on a 100, 150 or 200k EUR car, a couple of thousands more or less really make a difference. The hassle, the risk, the time involved, etc. to sell a high priced car privately is much worse than having to shoot a couple of thousands into the wind. Trust me. 

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

You are right RC. I have to say that for my business I also lease the car, although that is full operational lease, including everything. (Insurance, taxes, fuel, maintenance, tyres, lease). I get one invoice and that's it... No worries about anything.

For my privat car it's different story. Somehow, I always have the idea that the car isn't mine. I know it is the best thing you can do in terms of finance.  If you buy a car that costs 200k, that money is instantly away and you get some of it back when you sell the car. If you lease, you pay for it on a monthly base and in the meantime you can use the money you normally would have spend on the car, to invest in stocks for example. That way you normally make more money than in a savings account and also more money than the leasing rates, meaning that you'll end up spending less money than when you would have bought the car.

So when taken everything in account, leasing is the way to go, but still i can't do it for some reason... It's a psychological thing I guess... Now that I write it down I think "you stupid woman!" Hahaha

Suzy

 

Don't worry, for many people, buying instead of leasing really seems to have a psychological reason. This is actually quite interesting. I don't have any real advantage to buy the car (in the past, paying cash provided more rebate or some handymen who had too much money "left"  would get a "better" deal), so why not lease it? With the money I do not spend buying the car, I actually make more money in the process (usually 36 months, depending on how long the lease lasts). I don't want to go into details but let's say that by not buying the Panamera Turbo S in 2011, I actually got the Cayenne GTS and the Boxster S now completely for free.   For me, a lease makes a lot of sense and due to the fact that dealers get some sort of bonus for making lease contracts, the rebate is actually the same as if I would pay cash, sometimes maybe even higher since I can take some special lease offers.

I get your point though, owning the car can provide people with a good feeling. I get it, I really do. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

I think I actually convinced myself to lease my next car... Hahaha.  In the end it's just a car, nothing more, nothing less...

Suzy

 

It has nothing to do with good feelings! If you think it is financially beneficially  to lease so be it. Leasing is the most expensive means of driving a car. Dealers and car manufacturers offer leases not because they want to lose money.

nberry:

It has nothing to do with good feelings! If you think it is financially beneficially  to lease so be it. Leasing is the most expensive means of driving a car. Dealers and car manufacturers offer leases not because they want to lose money.

Just did a little comparison. Leasing my current Boxster S (well... A new one) is not that much more expensive than buying one and saving some money every month to get a new one in 4 years. In the end I'll spend about CHF4300 more over 4 years, when leasing. That's a little less than CHF90 a month...

The only benefit with buying  is that you don't have a milage limit and you actually own the car. It's not easy, but from a financial POV, leasing is by far the best option... In four years i can make a nice profit out of the price of a new Boxster S, when invested in stocks or even in real estate. (Not with a 100% guarantee if course, but what in life is?) it's certainly more than CHF4300 over 4 years!

Suzy

 

Did you have to put down any money in getting the lease. If so, did you include that in your calculation? If you traded a lease car in, there would have been a financial penalty if done prior to the expiration of the lease and that would have to be included in your comparison.

Remember a leased car is a liability and not an asset which an owned car would be.

Finally, when you calculate your driving cost leasing makes little sense. Christian, has several cars which I assume are all leased. His recently acquired TTS has to be costing him close to $3500 a month or over $100 a day. Since he does not drive it to work he is paying each and every day over $100 for it to sit in his garage. He gets absolutely nothing for paying the $100. The car sits while the money burns. The driving cost of his car is huge.

Porsche asks 10% first rate if I'm correct, but the company where I got my business car in full operational lease doesn't ask for a first payment at all. Believe me.. I know how to calculate ;)  The only thing I'm not sure about at this moment is if I can do a private lease with that company, they only do full operational lease as far as I know. 

Still I think even with a 10% first payment, leasing is cheaper in the end. (that is if you can make about 15% profit with investing in stocks in 4 years time, which should be that hard to do.... 

But You are of course coreect about the fact that you also pay for the days you don't use the car. On the other hand... You also do that when you buy the car....

Suzy

 

Suzy, you still own the car even if you are not using it. It is an asset. With a lease car, you open your garage door look at the car and say you just cost me $100 just to sit there. Tomorrow will be the same.

In the US, the up front money on a lease can be significant in some cases close to $10,000.

That said, in business it could be wise to lease depending on the tax laws.

IMO leasing is amazing for companies. You can take 10 cars, exploit them for lets say 3 years, they are treated as COST in your company not ownership so you can get some nice tax exemptions. When you are done with them, you exchange them for new ones. And its important to point that when you buy those 10 cars, you dont give all money in start, instead that money you can invest! 

For individuals, lease is good, but not great way of financing.

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My new blog with automotive & motorcycle renders: tessoart.blogspot.com

nberry:

Suzy, you still own the car even if you are not using it. It is an asset. With a lease car, you open your garage door look at the car and say you just cost me $100 just to sit there. Tomorrow will be the same.

In the US, the up front money on a lease can be significant in some cases close to $10,000.

That said, in business it could be wise to lease depending on the tax laws.

 

That's correct.  Leasing only makes sense in the U.S. if one is able to offset income in a business, for example, an LLC or S corp.  For other cases, it is merely pi$$ing money away with no asset at the end of the payment period.  

nberry:

Did you have to put down any money in getting the lease. If so, did you include that in your calculation? If you traded a lease car in, there would have been a financial penalty if done prior to the expiration of the lease and that would have to be included in your comparison.

Remember a leased car is a liability and not an asset which an owned car would be.

Finally, when you calculate your driving cost leasing makes little sense. Christian, has several cars which I assume are all leased. His recently acquired TTS has to be costing him close to $3500 a month or over $100 a day. Since he does not drive it to work he is paying each and every day over $100 for it to sit in his garage. He gets absolutely nothing for paying the $100. The car sits while the money burns. The driving cost of his car is huge.

 

Nick, I think you make a huge mistake here. You compare US lease offers (I guess) with German ones.

You are not even close to what I pay (not even a little bit close ) and I can assure you that I know what I am doing. Of course the car would be "cheaper" if I would drive it all day long but whats the difference between leasing and buying then? The value of the car at the end of the lease stays practically the same. 

Again (I think you didn't understand):

- I made a fixed initial payment at the start of the lease. These payments can be as high as up to 50% or so of the car's value. Of course nobody usually pays that much but if someone does, the monthly rate sinks dramatically. I usually pay 10-20k EUR, on the 991 Turbo S, it was a little bit more. I usually try to reach the same "value" as if I bought the car and sold it after 36 months. So far, I've done pretty well.

- It doesn't really matter if the initial payment is higher or the rates are higher. In the end, it is the same thing. Even for companies. I usually lease for the company and privately because I have the same advantages. I cannot deduct private lease cost but it would be the same as buying the car, especially considering the fact that the rebate is the same (sometimes even better) when I lease (vs. cash).

- My lease contract indicates that I am allowed to do 30000 km during the lease period (if I do more, I pay a certain amount per km on top of it at the end of the lease but this never happens...fun car and all and even if it would, the cost is not really high).

- I make fixed monthly payments for 36 months. After 36 months, I drive the car to the dealer, leave him the key and walk away.

I get the feeling that you are referring to residual value leases (which I would NEVER EVER do). I do "fixed mileage" leases only, where the residual value is only calculated to establish the initial payment and lease rates. You should see my wife's X3 35d lease conditions, almost a gift from BMW. 

Unlike people who buy the car, I know my cost of ownership with 100% certainty in advance. No surprises here. For my previous cars (and the 991 Turbo S) the lease conditions were pretty good. Yes there are bad lease conditions too, like the ones for the new Macan for example. The car is just too new and demand is too high. This is also the reason I took a Boxster S instead. The Macan was just too expensive to lease. In two years, when my wife's X3 35d lease runs out, she will take a Macan at much better (hopefully) lease conditions.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Christian, bank car loans are around 2%. Its cheap money and yet you still own the car.

FWIW, each individual situation is different and it may be that leasing in your case makes a lot of sense. I only bring up the ownership issue to give the other side of the story.

nberry:

Christian, bank car loans are around 2%. Its cheap money and yet you still own the car.

FWIW, each individual situation is different and it may be that leasing in your case makes a lot of sense. I only bring up the ownership issue to give the other side of the story.

It's probably pointless comparing leasing and outright ownership costs across national boundaries anyway, as the cost-efficiency of leasing in different tax jurisdictions might vary wildly depending on how the companies financing the leases are allowed to write off the depreciation costs of the cars against their taxes.  

fritz

RC:

nberry:

Did you have to put down any money in getting the lease. If so, did you include that in your calculation? If you traded a lease car in, there would have been a financial penalty if done prior to the expiration of the lease and that would have to be included in your comparison.

Remember a leased car is a liability and not an asset which an owned car would be.

Finally, when you calculate your driving cost leasing makes little sense. Christian, has several cars which I assume are all leased. His recently acquired TTS has to be costing him close to $3500 a month or over $100 a day. Since he does not drive it to work he is paying each and every day over $100 for it to sit in his garage. He gets absolutely nothing for paying the $100. The car sits while the money burns. The driving cost of his car is huge.

 

Nick, I think you make a huge mistake here. You compare US lease offers (I guess) with German ones.

You are not even close to what I pay (not even a little bit close ) and I can assure you that I know what I am doing. Of course the car would be "cheaper" if I would drive it all day long but whats the difference between leasing and buying then? The value of the car at the end of the lease stays practically the same. 

Again (I think you didn't understand):

- I made a fixed initial payment at the start of the lease. These payments can be as high as up to 50% or so of the car's value. Of course nobody usually pays that much but if someone does, the monthly rate sinks dramatically. I usually pay 10-20k EUR, on the 991 Turbo S, it was a little bit more. I usually try to reach the same "value" as if I bought the car and sold it after 36 months. So far, I've done pretty well.

- It doesn't really matter if the initial payment is higher or the rates are higher. In the end, it is the same thing. Even for companies. I usually lease for the company and privately because I have the same advantages. I cannot deduct private lease cost but it would be the same as buying the car, especially considering the fact that the rebate is the same (sometimes even better) when I lease (vs. cash).

- My lease contract indicates that I am allowed to do 30000 km during the lease period (if I do more, I pay a certain amount per km on top of it at the end of the lease but this never happens...fun car and all and even if it would, the cost is not really high).

- I make fixed monthly payments for 36 months. After 36 months, I drive the car to the dealer, leave him the key and walk away.

I get the feeling that you are referring to residual value leases (which I would NEVER EVER do). I do "fixed mileage" leases only, where the residual value is only calculated to establish the initial payment and lease rates. You should see my wife's X3 35d lease conditions, almost a gift from BMW. 

Unlike people who buy the car, I know my cost of ownership with 100% certainty in advance. No surprises here. For my previous cars (and the 991 Turbo S) the lease conditions were pretty good. Yes there are bad lease conditions too, like the ones for the new Macan for example. The car is just too new and demand is too high. This is also the reason I took a Boxster S instead. The Macan was just too expensive to lease. In two years, when my wife's X3 35d lease runs out, she will take a Macan at much better (hopefully) lease conditions.

Amen.

fritz:

nberry:

Christian, bank car loans are around 2%. Its cheap money and yet you still own the car.

FWIW, each individual situation is different and it may be that leasing in your case makes a lot of sense. I only bring up the ownership issue to give the other side of the story.

It's probably pointless comparing leasing and outright ownership costs across national boundaries anyway, as the cost-efficiency of leasing in different tax jurisdictions might vary wildly depending on how the companies financing the leases are allowed to write off the depreciation costs of the cars against their taxes.  

Amen... again.

I have mentioned it before but some cars would basically be unsold if it weren´t for the lease deals manufacturers provide for them. How many luxury sedans would be acquired (in Germany, that is)if it weren't for the lease deals that are offered for them, especially as a company car? It is far easier to adapt lease rates and hide rebates in it than it would be the case with cars that are bought off the dealer.  It also enables the dealer/manufacturer to keep a closer contact to the customer and an incentive to sell/lease another car in two to four years. 

The only significant hassle is the necessity to keep the car for the fixed time and with the covered mileage, a flexibility only a purchased car can provide.