Crown

SuzyF:

The car is not dangerous... It's always the driver that is dangerous. Some people think that they are invincible and that they can handle everything. That's when a car becomes dangerous. The person sitting next to the driver is just as responsible as the driver is.

I know it's very sad, but I've lost my father and brother at the same time because of idiots like this, so I can't have much respect for it. Sorry...

it's very sad for their families. That's for sure!

I would like to agree but it is difficult.
Fact is: The Carrera GT is a raw sports car, one of it's kind and a car which needs to be handled with care. This is actually not really a car for public road usage, unless you move it with a lot of restraint.

Pro drivers have a big ego. This ego is even bigger with a passenger in the car and even worse with a woman next to them. 

I don't know what happened and why Rodas apparently lost control of the car. I suspect he accelerated a little bit too much in a turn or a curve, maybe even straight (CGT has no AWD and no PSM), the road was maybe a little bit humid, dusty, whatever and he lost control. This is actually a "typcial" CGT accident but the bad luck was that he hit that lamp pole and then a tree. Not sure why the car burst into flames, this is something experts will have to look into it. I am pretty sure that Porsche will have their experts at the scene too at some point. The Carrera GT is no widow maker. The car is safe...IF driven "properly". This is not a car for beginners or wannabe race car drivers. This is a serious tool and should be driven with a lot of caution and even more respect. Especially on public roads.

Rodas apparently took a chance on a public road, something I do not understand. He was a pro race driver, he had two kids and a wife and he had a successful business. You just don't do such stupid things on a public road in a car which has no safety net. Also, the road wasn't empty, I heard that many came to help and tried to extinguish the fire. Why risk the lives of others in the process by driving reckless on a public road? Especially with the Carrera GT, a car which is NOT a toy but a serious race car with street registration.

Speaking of Ben (our user who died in a Carrera GT many years ago): I felt so sorry for his family, especially his baby daughter but of course I felt sorry for the wife of his also dead passenger. However, now I can say it: Ben posted once a video of him in the Carrera GT, doing a drift(!) in the city (full traffic) with his cell phone in one hand and the steering wheel in the other hand. I am sorry but the Carrera GT is not the car to do that with and especially not on a public road. Actually, I don't get doing something like that on a public road at all and I've done a lot of stupid things in my life.

Keep in mind that we all are made of flesh and bones and even the impact alone can kill us in an instant. Try to think about these tragic deaths when you decide you want to experience the limits of your beloved toy on a public road with PSM or even TC turned off. Many people can't even handle the Sport Plus mode, let alone turning off PSM completely.

Just don't do it. It doesn't make you a better driver. If you want to experience the limits of your car, go to a track or even better, join a driving school. If you think you are good, there is always something to learn and there are different driving schools for different skill levels.

Whenever I drive in my car and I kind of get the feeling that I'm too fast, I think of my kids and my wife and the accidents I heard of and I slow down. This just isn't worth it. Yes, the older I get, the slower I get but this is because I am thinking about the consequences which not only include me but also my family.

Safe driving everyone. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

There are apparently some photos of the scene showing donut marks and such, but I can't say for sure that it was from the GT. They were in an industrial park on a weekend so public traffic would probably be minimal to none so maybe he felt safe driving aggressively.

JoeRockhead:

There are apparently some photos of the scene showing donut marks and such, but I can't say for sure that it was from the GT. They were in an industrial park on a weekend so public traffic would probably be minimal to none so maybe he felt safe driving aggressively.

Maybe. You know however the saying "sh.t happens...". 

I remember when I once drove my former 997 Turbo with PSM turned off and I stopped at a fuel station to get something to drink but then suddenly decided that I wanted to get something to drink at my favorite fuel station because they had my favorite Arizona lemon tea. When I exited the fuel station, I drove up a street and then wanted to enter the main street to the left. I had completely forgotten that PSM was turned off and fully accelerated while I was entering the main street to the left. The car did almost a whole donut in an instant in the middle of the main road, I didn't even have the time to react. Luckily there was no car, I was lucky. I expected a little tail moving but not what happened since I forgot that PSM was off. Since then, I never drive with PSM turned off on public roads, never. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Fact is that every car is as dangerous as the driver wants it to be.... A car like the CGT (and for that matter every sportscar) needs to be driven with respect. When the ego gets bigger than the capabillities of the driver, every car can get dangerous. 

I read several stories on the net that blame Porsche for the accident, because of the lack of PSM and the CGT being a dangerous car.  Those kind of stories are what really makes me sad....  And angry too.

Because Paul Walker was in the car, it gets way too much media attention and of course it is a very sad thing that it happened, but the facts are the same as when two not so famous people would have had a similar accident. In a 35mph accident, a car doesn't get wrecked that way, they must have driven way above that speedlimit. It was on an industrial park in the weekend, but that doesn't mean you can drive as fast as you want. Besides that, when we drove from Ventura to L.A. to catch our flight home on saturday, the roads where moist at some places. It's possible that it was moist in Santa Clarita as well, since that is somewhere half way between Ventura and L.A. In moist conditions, you need to be extra careful with a car like that. 

Suzy

 

Very sobering and mature discussion.  Rodas was a highly experienced driver but in the context of a public road with unpredictable conditions in a car with a low tolerance for misstep of any nature the potential for catastrophe was above the norm, and perhaps should have been foreseeable.

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

SuzyF:

Fact is that every car is as dangerous as the driver wants it to be.... A car like the CGT (and for that matter every sportscar) needs to be driven with respect. When the ego gets bigger than the capabillities of the driver, every car can get dangerous. 

I read several stories on the net that blame Porsche for the accident, because of the lack of PSM and the CGT being a dangerous car.  Those kind of stories are what really makes me sad....  And angry too.

Because Paul Walker was in the car, it gets way too much media attention and of course it is a very sad thing that it happened, but the facts are the same as when two not so famous people would have had a similar accident. In a 35mph accident, a car doesn't get wrecked that way, they must have driven way above that speedlimit. It was on an industrial park in the weekend, but that doesn't mean you can drive as fast as you want. Besides that, when we drove from Ventura to L.A. to catch our flight home on saturday, the roads where moist at some places. It's possible that it was moist in Santa Clarita as well, since that is somewhere half way between Ventura and L.A. In moist conditions, you need to be extra careful with a car like that. 

I certainly didn't blame Porsche and anyone who does, should really get real. The Carrera GT is as safe as a car with so much power without PSM (ESP) can be and keep in mind that especially the fact that the Carrera GT has no ESP and that it provides quite a "raw" driving experience actually makes this car so special and desirable. Blaming Porsche for building such a fine product would be like blaming an excellent kitchen knife maker for making such a sharp knife. Of course it can cut a limb with it or even kill someone if not used with caution or properly. 

Also, Rodas was a pro race car driver and he was certainly very aware of the risks involved driving a Carrera GT in an "inappropriate" way. He crashed his racing car early this year, so you think someone like that would be more careful but I guess some people just don't hear the bell.  Roger Rodas was an intelligent guy (look at his background and business activities), he was married to a beautiful wife and had two kids, maybe he was a bit too confident, maybe he just wanted to have some fun, I don't know. Truth is: He took an innocent life (Paul Walker) and he ruined the lives of Paul Walker's daughter Meadow and of course the lives of his wife and his two kids. No blaming here intended but it makes me so sad and angry at the same time, it is very difficult to explain. 

Paul Walker deserves all the attention he gets now because he didn't do anything wrong and his life was taken from him so sudden. I do not blame anyone but let's be real: Roger Rodas should have known better. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Prayers for the families.  

[soapbox on]

I'm going to go into the realm of speculation for just a moment.  If the TMZ report is true, that it was a customer car in the shop, it would not surprise me if the car had some pretty old (non-MSS) tires fitted and that the rear anti-roll bar was still set to factory default (medium) rear roll stiffness.  

The above condition is actually worse than the as-delivered state of the car regarding handling because "old" OEM-spec tires are truly awful in grip and the older they are, the worse they get.  Even "new" old-stock OEM-spec tires are pretty poor in my experience, perhaps because they are forever "cooking" while in storage.  

The as-delivered rear roll stiffness (even with freshly molded tires) seemed to me to be appropriate for lurid sliding of the car at will and was not particularly fast on the track because one could not accelerate out of a corner under full power until the car was almost finished with the turn ---- unless 30 degree rear slip angles are your personal specialty.  Even Bobby Rahal observed of the CGT he owned long ago, "Those things over-steer like crazy!" 

The Carrera GT is much better for me to drive when the rear roll stiffness is set to "soft" by moving the drop link to the "end hole" in the rear bar from the center hole. The "max-stiff" inner-most hole is there for some reason other than planting the rear --- drifting competitions?  By only changing the rear roll stiffness to "soft", I was able to reduce my track times by 4 or 5 seconds per lap (on a 1min-18sec/lap course) because of the improvement in putting down full power sooner in corners!  Not a small improvement!

Fitting Michelin Super Sport tires also helps immensely.  They are way less "interesting" if not at optimum temperature and just work better in every circumstance from rain to country road to track.  The MSS tires have been the subject of reports of "miraculous improvement" stories and are well accepted as essential upgrades for owners who actually intend to drive their CGT and not merely look at it.

My intent here is to plead with every Carrera GT owner to soften the rear anti-roll bar setting and fit Michelin Super Sport tires as soon as possible as a means of making the car the drivers' friend that it ought to be.

[soapbox off]

Mike

Carrera GT + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T + GT3 RS 4.0

Mike, I agree with your recommendation but keep in mind that Roger Rodas was a pro driver, so he knew his Carrera GT pretty well. Of course, based on the many previous owners the car apparently had, it cannot be excluded that there was some sort of (hidden) technical issue or maybe Roger Rodas or a previous owner has had a non-approved modification done but so far, I think it is safe to say that a driver like Rodas knew his car pretty well.

I feel so angry about this whole thing and even more sad about the fact that three kids lost their fathers. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC,

Yes, he may have been a pro race driver, but he ran out of talent on the street, sad to say.

My point is that if one is used to race cars, especially those that are set up correctly, one might expect certain control inputs to result in some predictable outcome.  The Carrera GT in old-tire/stiff-roll form can surprise even expert drivers in its responses to corrective inputs.  I know it has surprised the hell out of me from time to time.

Perhaps if a race driver has driven very many different cars he might be tempted to think that they're all alike in some ways and looses respect for the potential differences?  Pride goeth before the fall.

--

Mike

Carrera GT + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T + GT3 RS 4.0

RC:

I feel so angry about this whole thing and even more sad about the fact that three kids lost their fathers. 

I feel the exact same way about this... Angry and sad at the same time. Unfortunatley I also know all too well how it feels for those kids. My thoughts are with them and the rest of both families. 

Being a petrolhead I love these cars and the thrill they offer, but I'm also very aware of the risk that they can ripp away your loved ones out of your life, even if they aren't even in the car. It's something I struggle with when things like this happen. I hope that it is at least a lesson to other people who drive these beautiful cars and that they handle them with respect.

Suzy

 

RIP

Very sad for their family and loved ones. 

RIP

There is no try. Just do.

RIP 

RIP 

It seems they are now blaming the car ….. getting already ready for a trial against Porsche 

They say there were some liquid traces just before the break point . There was no skid marks . The car caught fire at the front ( not the side )

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

They say that there was perhaps a power steering fluid leak which caused lack of grip - slippery stuff.  If that is the case then Porsche is to blame just like the crappy fittings used to contain coolant in the Gt1 blocks.  (just replaced the these leaking fittings in my Turbo before they caused me to crash!)  Shame on Porsche if that is the case.  I was very disappointed to see how Porsche make the original fittings!  It seems modern Porsches are made to last the life of the warranty - after that they don't seem to care.  Talk about hurting resale value of these 'new' Porsches.

RIP Paul

Lastly - Suzy, I am so very sorry to hear about your personal experiance and the loss of your family members!  Let's all hopefully learn from others mistakes.  (slow down RC!)

As a side note - my first Porsche, a little 72' 914, was totalled by a drunk driver who hit me when I was 16 years old.  I still have the scars from that one.  After I got out of the car, instinctively, the car burned to the ground.  As luck would have it I was not wearing a seatbelt which allowed me to escape in time, else I would have been pinned into the seat as the car (an old Chevy) came in through my driver side door and blasted me into the passenger seat.  Seeing the burned up CGT made me remember that night (Dec. 28 1979) vividly.  I have always driven with this accident in the back of my mind and it serves me well to be cautious.  And YES, I always wear my seatbelt now regardless of the fact that not wearing it that day saved my life.

Leawood911:

They say that there was perhaps a power steering fluid leak which caused lack of grip - slippery stuff.  If that is the case then Porsche is to blame just like the crappy fittings used to contain coolant in the Gt1 blocks.  (just replaced the these leaking fittings in my Turbo before they caused me to crash!)  Shame on Porsche if that is the case.  I was very disappointed to see how Porsche make the original fittings!  It seems modern Porsches are made to last the life of the warranty - after that they don't seem to care.  Talk about hurting resale value of these 'new' Porsches.

You know that the coolant ducts/fittings are part of the maintenance schedule, so it isn't Porsche fault if many repair shops just don't do the maintenance right?!

The Carrera GT owned by Roger Rodas had six owners as far as I read. Given the fact that the CGT isn't cheap to maintain properly, maybe one of the owners wanted to save a buck or two and...or the repair shop doing the maintenance just missed a thing or two if they were not authorized. I know a guy who owns a private repair shop in Germany and he also drives several Porsche. He maintains his Porsche cars at his repair shop, despite the fact that he doesn't really have the proper tools or knowledge. Just saying...

Sorry to hear about your accident. I was hit by a drunken driver over 29 years ago, my car flipped over (roof) and slid around 100 meters on the roof towards the oncoming traffic (no kidding). I was wearing a seatbelt (it saved my life, I had three broken ribs from the seatbelt) but the car started to burn in the front and a police officer cut me out. Luckily the fire was very small and got extinguished fast, the car didn't really burn. I was actually lucky that my car flipped due to the impact. The drunken driver hit me at a speed of around 90-100 kph, he passed through a red light and hit my right fender (I was coming from his left at a speed of 60 kph). If my car wouldn't have flipped, thus reducing impact energy, I probably would be dead now.

@Suzy: My condolences, I had actually overseen this part of your post. So sorry about that.  I can imagine how you feel when you read about accidents. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

'coolant ducts/fittings are part of the maintenance schedule' - because they used cheap parts to begin with!  I doubt anyone would replace them until they start to leak.  Who would engineer such a part so that a $3k engine removal is part of a maintenance schedule?  Look at all other maintenance items on a 911 and you will see brilliant engineering to do regular maintenance, this is not one of those anticipated maintenance items - it is an afterthought at best.  The upgraded parts from SharkWerks will last like they should have in the first place.  Given all the time I have spent around 911s I was not aware of this 'weakness' so I doubt even my dealer knew about this (of course they are a joke and my independent mechanic was all over it and did an excellent job fixing it).

At any rate, the point is that if the power steering fluid leaked then it certainly could have been the fault of the car/Porsche and not something the driver could have known about or predicted. 

Leawood911:

At any rate, the point is that if the power steering fluid leaked then it certainly could have been the fault of the car/Porsche and not something the driver could have known about or predicted. 

I just read an article where the police claims that "excessive speed" may have played a role in the accident.

They probably know something we don't know (yet).

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Greek media say that the car was number 479, originally bought from Porsche Beverly Hills in 2005. Then sold to someone in California in 2007, in Texas in 2009 and then Florida, then Indiana and finally to its current owner Always Evolving. So car had many previous owners... RIP 

Nikolas - 01 996 Turbo, 06 997 Turbo, 07 AM V8

CNN is now saying there are reports of a second vehicle possibly being involved, whether racing or it may have cut the Porsche off.

More about Paul: (what a nice guy)

Tales of Walker's philanthropy are not new. CNN confirmed one story from a decade ago when Walker noticed a young U.S. soldier shopping with his fiancee for a wedding ring in a Santa Barbara jewelry store.

"The groom was just back from duty in Iraq, and he was going to be deployed again soon and wanted to buy a wedding ring, but he said he just could not afford it," saleswoman Irene King told CNN. "I don't think the soldier realized how expensive those rings are, about $10,000."

The couple apparently did not know who Walker was, King said.

"Walker called the manager over and said, 'Put that girl's ring on my tab,'" she said. "Walker left all his billing info, and it was a done deal. The couple was stunned. She was thrilled and could not believe someone did this."

The investigators also seem to look at a blown tire as a possible culprit.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

The investigators also seem to look at a blown tire as a possible culprit.

The rumor mills are working overtime on this story...

So far, some are first reporting another car, a Honda S2000 was involved in a drag race; the second, is with the lack of skid marks, the steering system possibly failed; and finally, a blown tire...

However, no matter what the initial incident, this was a high-speed collision with several immovable objects, including trees and a water pipe for the sprinkler system for the tree lawn.  That water pipe may have punctured the center mounted fuel tank adding to the conflagration.  US magazine is the most off-base with an article pointing to high fire rates for the Porsche 911.  

No matter what, this accident is directly attributable to speeds too great for public roads.   

Legal speed limit was 45 mph, so I guess speeding was at least one factor to blame.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

Legal speed limit was 45 mph, so I guess speeding was at least one factor to blame.

You know from your racing experience, once a car starts to rotate, as was evident in this incident, speeds, unless it was completely airborne, fall off dramatically.  Therefore, if, for example the CGT was traveling at 60 mph, at the point of impact, the speed would most likely fall below the legal speed limit; however, there would still, with a high probability, be injuries.  

R.I.P. Paul

RIP PAUL

As the owner of a red CGT I'd love any 411 on whether a busted steering resavior / steering leak had anything to do w/ this as the driver's peeps r trying to postulate.  I'm guessing not and they r trying to use this to offset some damage exposure they have from Walker's heir(s)  !!?????

CGT LA:

As the owner of a red CGT I'd love any 411 on whether a busted steering resavior / steering leak had anything to do w/ this as the driver's peeps r trying to postulate.  I'm guessing not and they r trying to use this to offset some damage exposure they have from Walker's heir(s)  !!?????

Lots of experts will be involved in the investigation and I am pretty sure that Porsche will be directly involved too, just to make sure that some "expert" doesn't come up with a weird theory, ruining their reputation.

So far, we know that the speed limit in the accident zone was 45 mph. Judging by the photos we've seen and what we heard about how the accident evolved, I think it is safe to say that the car was faster than 45 mph when the accident happened. Everything else remains to be seen but one thing is for sure: Paul Walker was innocent (he was a passenger and as a passenger you really don't have much to say) and three kids lost their dads. Everything else now is kind of maculation, it doesn't bring back the kids' dads. So sad. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

both of the guys are Speed Junkies and imo they just took their luck too far....

when i drive fast, i always think of the posible consequences either through a mechanical issue or any other circumstance that would end me up in a crash. accidents do happen unfortunately, but when our own Action is the cause, there is no room for excuses.

from the Images we saw, it is clear the CGT was travelling way above Speed Limits on public roads. even if the issue was mechanical, it is solely their fault.

surely it is always sad to see Young lives end like this and the distress it is causing the families.

RIP very sad - I am not expert to the GT - but knowing a owner who has 2 he said the new Michelin tires transform the car and make it obviously much more "drivable". Of course being still a edgy car.