Crown

PBS2010:

Obviously the gearing is way too tall including on the new GT3, where the company talk on the so-called 7-speed close ratio ‘box is a farce.  Total nonsense made up by the marketing guys (probably under pressure by the environmental guys), yet readily swallowed by the gullible devotees.

I am hardly a gullible devotee and I am very experienced with creating custom gearing for my cars for purposes of track use (have done this multiple times - whole new gearsets, not just R&P).  I have been critical of the new GT3 (I won't buy one, due to the lack of a manual gearbox).  However, I am not so blinded by bias to ignore the fact that the new 7sp PDK-S is a revelation in its improved gearing over every other GT3.

If you think the new gearing is a farce, please provide your preferred gear ratios (1st through 7th) and final drive.  If this is too much trouble, please let me know what speed you would like the car to reach in 7th gear at 9,000 rpm (and please add speed for each gear 1-6 also, if you can).

BTW, if you only want to change Final Drive, then you are admitting that the gearbox already has close ratios (not a farce).  If you want closer ratios, how close (please indicate rev drops on each upshift into 2nd through 7th gears)?

If you PM me your email, I will send you an Excel Spreadsheet template to design your own ratios...
 

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73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Grant:

PBS2010:

Obviously the gearing is way too tall including on the new GT3, where the company talk on the so-called 7-speed close ratio ‘box is a farce.  Total nonsense made up by the marketing guys (probably under pressure by the environmental guys), yet readily swallowed by the gullible devotees.

I am hardly a gullible devotee and I am very experienced with creating custom gearing for my cars for purposes of track use (have done this multiple times - whole new gearsets, not just R&P).  I have been critical of the new GT3 (I won't buy one, due to the lack of a manual gearbox).  However, I am not so blinded by bias to ignore the fact that the new 7sp PDK-S is a revelation in its improved gearing over every other GT3.

If you think the new gearing is a farce, please provide your preferred gear ratios (1st through 7th) and final drive.  If this is too much trouble, please let me know what speed you would like the car to reach in 7th gear at 9,000 rpm (and please add speed for each gear 1-6 also, if you can).

BTW, if you only want to change Final Drive, then you are admitting that the gearbox already has close ratios (not a farce).  If you want closer ratios, how close (please indicate rev drops on each upshift into 2nd through 7th gears)?

If you PM me your email, I will send you an Excel Spreadsheet template to design your own ratios...
 

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Top speed at 250 or 270km/h would suffice as I said.  If a simple change of the final ratio can do the job that would be perfect.  I have already asked Porsche about changing the final ratio on earlier models, and the answer has consistently:  Zis is not possible!

PBS2010:

Top speed at 250 or 270km/h would suffice as I said.  If a simple change of the final ratio can do the job that would be perfect.  I have already asked Porsche about changing the final ratio on earlier models, and the answer has consistently:  Zis is not possible!

This indicates to me that you are satisfied with the spacing of the ratios.  By only changing Final Drive ratio, this does absolutely nothing to improve the closeness of the ratios (speeds in gear are reduced, but the rev drops into the next higher gear will be identical).  Closer ratios mean that the engine stays at higher rpm after an upshift and this is the benefit drivers seek on the track.  Here, I agree that the new PDK-S is already excellent (could be slightly better into 2nd and 3rd gears, but almost perfect, imo).

BTW, you received bad advice about changing Final Drive on earlier GT3's - there are Porsche Motorsport versions available for the road cars.  However, this still does not address the fundamental problem with the past GT3 gearing which is the large spacing between the gears (revs drop too far into 3rd gear in particular).  Differerent individual ratios are also available for the road cars (not sure if aftermarket or Motorsports, or both).  This issue is largely fixed with PDK-S gearing.

Changing Final Drive to give 250kph (155mph) top speed would make the current 1st gear almost totally useless.  If you changed the individual ratios also to work with the new top speed, you would end up with extremely close ratios (which could help performance somewhat on slower tracks), but you would be shifting constantly and engine life would be very short if you do any high speed highway driving for long distances (Cruising at 200kph in 7th gear would give 7,200 rpm instead of 5,200 rpm in the stock car).

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73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Evo Car Of The Year 2013...

Evo Car Of The Year 2013 -- Issue 190 Preview

Here are a few behind the scenes pics from ECoTY...

...no doubt you can guess which car finished in front... (spoiler alert) 

Evo Car Of The Year 2013

1. Porsche 911 GT3
2. Ferrari F12
3. Mercedes SLS Black
4. Aston Martin V12 Vantage S
5. Audi R8 V10 Plus
6. Mini JCW GP
7. Porsche Cayman S
8. Alfa Romeo 4C

...it is well worth picking up a copy of Evo magazine for the full feature article! 

the readers will go bananaz with another 911 being ECOTY.... - cannot wait for issue 191  

The Mini in front of the Cayman and the 4C!! I am waiting to read their rationale

The top 5 ranking is very logical, however.

"Form follows function"

Wow, why this rather poor result for the Alfa 4C ? I thought it received positive reviews so far? 

Porsche 911 GT3 - Guards Red 997 MKII Clubsport

Grant:

PBS2010:

Top speed at 250 or 270km/h would suffice as I said.  If a simple change of the final ratio can do the job that would be perfect.  I have already asked Porsche about changing the final ratio on earlier models, and the answer has consistently:  Zis is not possible!

This indicates to me that you are satisfied with the spacing of the ratios.  By only changing Final Drive ratio, this does absolutely nothing to improve the closeness of the ratios (speeds in gear are reduced, but the rev drops into the next higher gear will be identical).  Closer ratios mean that the engine stays at higher rpm after an upshift and this is the benefit drivers seek on the track.  Here, I agree that the new PDK-S is already excellent (could be slightly better into 2nd and 3rd gears, but almost perfect, imo).

BTW, you received bad advice about changing Final Drive on earlier GT3's - there are Porsche Motorsport versions available for the road cars.  However, this still does not address the fundamental problem with the past GT3 gearing which is the large spacing between the gears (revs drop too far into 3rd gear in particular).  Differerent individual ratios are also available for the road cars (not sure if aftermarket or Motorsports, or both).  This issue is largely fixed with PDK-S gearing.

Changing Final Drive to give 250kph (155mph) top speed would make the current 1st gear almost totally useless.  If you changed the individual ratios also to work with the new top speed, you would end up with extremely close ratios (which could help performance somewhat on slower tracks), but you would be shifting constantly and engine life would be very short if you do any high speed highway driving for long distances (Cruising at 200kph in 7th gear would give 7,200 rpm instead of 5,200 rpm in the stock car).

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

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I do not know how to achieve the outcome.  I am no engineer.  From the user’s standpoint, what I know is what I wrote ie the gearing is too tall (call it what you want), ie, too many km/h for each gear designed to achieve what I consider a useless top speed.  It is the same on the other Porsche models, save that on this supposedly close-ration PDK the 7^th is less overdrive than on the others.

For background, below is the table I posted on an earlier post of the GT3 km/h on the last gears:

What would be great is to have the best of both worlds: a very tall final gear for the obvious reasons on the highway (like the regular PDKs for example) and aggressive gearing on the intermediate gears, for example 1 to 6.  British cars in the past used to have an overdrive button.  This could also help.

Therefore, on twisty country roads and mountain roads, one could really use gears 1 to 4 or perhaps 5 instead of being stuck to 1,2 and, maybe, 3.

It's not really clear to me why you want to be able to use more gears at low speed, even if it may make the car slower (certainly in top speed and maybe in acceleration in some spots too).  I really urge you to drive the car before complaining.  There are now 2 more gears that are useful compared to all other GT3s before - 7th is a real performance gear and 1st gear is totally accessible for use on slow uphill hairpin corners in the mountains (without having to know how to execute a very precise heel-toe double-clutch downshift - something I enjoy, but not all owners of modern cars are trained to do).

Your solution of packing 1-6 and then adding a tall 7th is terrible, as the revs will fall too far to overcome the strong wind resistance at that speed.

Porsche finally addressed the most glaring shortcoming of the previous cars and you call it a farce.  Please drive it wherever you want and see if it isn't a great set of gears.

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73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Guys! I was still planning on reading that article!

A small RUMOR update on the GT3 issues: Apparently the engine issues are solved (this was an "easy" thing, they are using "stronger" parts now) but there still seems to be a major issue with PDK and AWS "collaboration". This may also be the reason why the Sport Auto GT3 test car was difficult to drive at the limit. Porsche is rumored to work on that but don't expect a major performance gain from that but a smoother driving experience at the limit.

Right now, it seems that first customer cars won't make it to them before sometimes in December.

Again...rumors...take them with a grain of salt.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

ECOTY 2013:

Part 1--> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT4WXokoAx0

Part 2--> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtZKV8087aE

OMG the end of Part 2.......  I need to go home now and fire up the naturally aspirated one....

BjoernB:

OMG the end of Part 2.......  I need to go home now and fire up the naturally aspirated one....

Porsche 911 GT3 - Guards Red 997 MKII Clubsport

Same feeling here. Shame I booked a flight, or I'd drive to Milano now (EICMA)...

That last 1 1/2 minutes had me grinning from ear to ear.

nberry:

That last 1 1/2 minutes had me grinning from ear to ear.

+100

997TT RS Tuning stage II(sold),2011 Cayenne Turbo(sold),waiting 991 GT3 RS

Call me crazy but IMO the Mini, Cayman and 4C had no business being in this test. Comparing apples to oranges.

The F12 received two 5th place votes - are they serious!!!  And the Mini a 3rd and 4th place?  Some of these people have NO business testing cars IMO.  

The GT3 is a great car (congrats to those on the waiting list). My only "slight" reservation would be its low torque output, which in the motorcycle world is the equivalent to a 600cc sports bike vs the big boy 1000+cc bikes, which have torque at ALL rpm - like my Ducati 1200.  In the real world, you can't be revving the heck out of an engine that frequently (unless on a track). Hopefully it has enough juice at lower rpm to still feel special. Look forward to owners comments.

As for its gearing, after seeing the attached videos, where they were constantly hitting the limiter (not sure why?), the gearing seemed just fine to me. 

FlatSix911:

ECOTY 2013:

Part 2--> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtZKV8087aE

OT: I can't make it out what he said about the Cayman starting at 07:10 min. Can someone please help out?
"Too long geared. In the wet the lack of steering feel ......... turning oversteer, makes it tricky to drive smooth" 


 

My Dealer on Long Island NY gets their first GT3 next month just before Christmas. They are expecting 6 before the end of the year.....

2013 BMW 750 xDrive MSport & 2012 x5 - TurboS Cab on Order Mar14. Range Rover V8 on order June14

jesse:

FlatSix911:

ECOTY 2013:

Part 2--> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtZKV8087aE

OT: I can't make it out what he said about the Cayman starting at 07:10 min. Can someone please help out?
"Too long geared. In the wet the lack of steering feel ......... turning oversteer, makes it tricky to drive smooth" 


 

"Too long geared. In the wet the lack of steering feel ......and apetite for turn-in oversteer, makes it tricky to drive smooth" 

mp:

Call me crazy but IMO the Mini, Cayman and 4C had no business being in this test. Comparing apples to oranges.

The F12 received two 5th place votes - are they serious!!!  And the Mini a 3rd and 4th place?  Some of these people have NO business testing cars IMO.  

The GT3 is a great car (congrats to those on the waiting list). My only "slight" reservation would be its low torque output, which in the motorcycle world is the equivalent to a 600cc sports bike vs the big boy 1000+cc bikes, which have torque at ALL rpm - like my Ducati 1200.  In the real world, you can't be revving the heck out of an engine that frequently (unless on a track). Hopefully it has enough juice at lower rpm to still feel special. Look forward to owners comments.

As for its gearing, after seeing the attached videos, where they were constantly hitting the limiter (not sure why?), the gearing seemed just fine to me. 

++++++++++++++++++

I am glad you mentioned both points (low torque and gearing).

A comparison of the power and torque charts of the 991 GT3, Carrera S, 991S with X51, 997 GT3, RS and 4. shows that there is a little more power and torque at the same engine speeds as the prior engines, but most of the gain is above 7,000 and even more so above 8,000 rpm.  So if you do not push it, the new GT3 would probably make no difference relative to a 991S.

So you would have to push very hard to make a difference on the GT3, at least in terms of power delivery.

Regarding gearing, the Evo videos illustrate in good part what I have been repeating over and again:  the tall gearing.  On the type of roads used for the test, which realistically is really the type of road where you can enjoy a sports car like the GT3 and stay within reasonable closeness to legality (and sanity:  because hitting the redline in 3^rd will mean about 170km/h and in 4^th over 210km/h, and that will not cut it on a windy road), how many gears are used beyond the first gear?  No so many.

The reason they hit the limiter so often was, it seems, that they used the first gear a lot.

BTW, with a manual transmission, on a road car, can you do that and not kill your gearbox quite fast?  Is it much different with the PDK?

Why did they use the first gear and hit the limiter?  Managing drifts is one reason.  The second reason is the gearing of the car.  In order to complete my table above concerning gears 3 to 7, here is the table of the km/h in the first two gears. 

Therefore, on the type of roads used for the Evo test, if the driver wants to get to very high RPMs, you would not use much more than 1-2 and sometimes 3.

The GT3 has about 50% more torque than a Formula One car.  Like an F1 car, the really high redline allows lots of torque to the wheels (ever see an F1 car leave the pits? - no problem spinning the huge slicks with only ~ 200 ft-lbs of torque).  This is due to the lower (absolute) gearing made possible by the high redline.  Gears are torque multipliers, so GT3 puts lots of torque to the ground.  Yes, you need to rev it (if you don't like this buy a Turbo or a large displacement V8, 10 , or 12), but the new gearing allows this at nearly any speed in nearly any situation.

Comparing a GT3 to a Carrera at low revs is silly.  Do you know that an F1 car idles at 6k rpm?  You need to drive the GT3 like a racecar to get 100% of its capabilities (that's why enthusiasts like them).  At low revs, it is quiet and civilized - best of both worlds.

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73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

The GT3 does not look tricky at the limit in that video . More so the opposite .

So, did the Sport Auto car have the problem Porsche is working on at the moment ?

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Grant:

The GT3 has about 50% more torque than a Formula One car.  Like an F1 car, the really high redline allows lots of torque to the wheels (ever see an F1 car leave the pits? - no problem spinning the huge slicks with only ~ 200 ft-lbs of torque).  This is due to the lower (absolute) gearing made possible by the high redline.  Gears are torque multipliers, so GT3 puts lots of torque to the ground.  Yes, you need to rev it (if you don't like this buy a Turbo or a large displacement V8, 10 , or 12), but the new gearing allows this at nearly any speed in nearly any situation.

Comparing a GT3 to a Carrera at low revs is silly.  Do you know that an F1 car idles at 6k rpm?  You need to drive the GT3 like a race car to get 100% of its capabilities (that's why enthusiasts like them).  At low revs, it is quiet and civilized - best of both worlds.

Grant,

GREAT explanation to help bench racers "get it" 

Mike

Carrera GT + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T + GT3 RS 4.0

PBS2010:

Therefore, on the type of roads used for the Evo test, if the driver wants to get to very high RPMs, you would not use much more than 1-2 and sometimes 3.

I think you fail to understand the point of a GT3 (or similar naturally-aspirated Sports car) - maybe you should buy a turbo diesel....

Thanks, Mike!

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Evo Car Of The Year 2013 -- Part 1...

Evo Car Of The Year 2013 -- Part 2...

Evo Track Car Of The Year 2013...

Evo Car Of The Year 2013 -- Part 1 -- Video Link

Evo Car Of The Year 2013 -- Part 2 -- Video Link

Evo Track Car Of The Year 2013 -- Video Link

...thanks and all due credit to Evo magazine and Jethro Bovingdon!

Really disappointed at how poor the little Alfa seems

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550