Crown

This just shows the Cayman is really not a fast track car. I just don't get why anyone would buy the Cayman over the Boxster for more money 

The GT3 and F12 buyers are very different IMHO. If you can buy a F12 you can get a GT3 in addition to it... Plus you can try to compare a GT3 to a 458 speciale but not really to the F12...

Regiones:

       If you read the whole article they did the direct comparisons in sub-groups, before comparing across:

Ford vs Toyota

Ariel vs Radical

Cayman vs Jaguar vs A45

GT3 vs F12 vs Aston Martin

The GT3 did very well (for its price especially), and in this context a F12  owner might be tempted to add the Porsche to his garage. But I wouldn't think this person would get the GT3 instead of this imperious Ferrari.

Yes, but problem is that those three cars have nothing to do with each other, and it's hardly a minimally decent population sample to even try to make some sort of conclusion, especially since there is not a single direct competitor to the GT3 in the test.. The fact that the GT3 was going to win as the best "drivers" car was a no brainer given the group of cars selected.

Not that I wouldn't think that the GT3 would win against its real competition, like I said many times it's my favorite car in the 911 line up and for precisely that reason it's the best "drivers car" in the 911 line up and therefore of all other cars as well 

--

The test is for 2013/14 cars. What other cars should they included?

I think the driver's car of the year and the similar best handling car of the year comparisons which are done annually by the Autocar, include cars that became available (in the UK) during the year in question.

This condition makes the matching of direct competitors not always feasible.

Nevertheless the owner of the F12 wouldn't feel very nicely about the magazine's verdict. However, we must take these magazine articles with a pinch of salt

--

"Form follows function"

PBS2010:

 

Your comment ought to be nuanced on the following points:

• “close ratio 7 speed gearbox”:  this is primarily company BS. The box is still not a close-ratio at all.  What is true is that the ratios are closer than on the other, regular Porsches, but they are not close ratios at all.  The 7^th is still overdrive by large standards.  Below is a table of the km/h achieved from 5,000rpm on the last five gears.  It speaks for itself.  How can one say that a 7-gear box that permits reaching 200km/h at 8,250rpm (top HP engine speed), in fourth gear … with 3 more gears to go! Is a close-ratio 7-gear box?  How often do you need to take corners well above 200km/h and how useful is it to have 3 more gears to work on these types of corners?  On a track?  On the road?
• “9k redline”:  again, company BS, probably to have something to say relative the 458 which indeed has top HP and limiter at 9,000.  Peak HP on the GT3 is achieved 750rpm earlier.  The rest may be useful on a track but useless on a road except when you may want to hear the engine screaming, which may only happen from time to time.  The GT3 is a road car primarily and for people who will go to the track with it, via public roads and back.  So my point is that on usual road conditions, the so-called 9,000 redline adds nothing except the nuisance of a lot of noise and the low torque;  also, on the road these engine specs add close to nothing relative to the regular Carrera
• “the GT3 will rarely be below 7k rpm if well driven on a track (and never below 6k)”: watching the various videos posted and whose links are on this forum, it does not seem to be the case always.  And on a public road, this will almost always impossible.

My bottom line is that the gearing on even the sportier Porsches is way too tall.

All comments welcome.

Hi - I appreciate your comments, but I disagree with your analysis.  Here is a gear chart showing where shifting occurs (ignore colored line - just look at triangles at top on the lowest chart below).  Notice revs only dip below 6k on slow 2nd gear corners (but a little too fast for 1st gear - not all track will have a corner like this).

Regarding redline being above peak hp - this is almost always the case.  The goal is to shift above peak hp, so that you are not too far below peak hp in the next gear.  You want your average rpm to be as close to peak hp for as long as possible (shifting above peak hp achieves this far better than shifting at peak).

7th gear is technically an overdrive, but you cannot properly analyze that, unless you consider the final drive as well.  The fact that Vmax is achieved in top gear near peak hp means the GT3 is properly geared - not a cruising gear in 7th.

Yes, a slow track migh benefit from even lower gearing, but then top speed would be sacrifiiced (not desirable for a car designed to run on autobahn).

Cheers,

Grant

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Interesting.  What is your source of information? The top speed of the 991 GT3 is far from 320mph.

There is a contradiction in what you are writing, now that you mention top speed on the Autobahn.

First of all, not all the GT3 buyers in the world live in Germany.  Those who do may not be in parts of the country which are least congested or suffer minimum road works disruptions, and therefore can drive at speeds in excess of 270km/h for a decent period of time.

I mention 270km/h because, if I am correct, it is about the top speed reached by the GT3 on the longest straight of the Nurburgring NS, a very fast circuit.  I have never driven on another circuit, even former F1 circuits, where a car like the GT3 may achieve more than 230-250km/h on the straight.  I do not know if any such circuit exists. Do you?

Very high speed capability may be appealing to many on the paper (probably most of them are not Porsche GT buyers).  However, in practice, I find it totally useless.  It corrupts the essence of what makes a driver’s car and leads many manufacturers, including Porsche, sell cars with excessively tall gearing.  (Another disease is the excessive communication about the 0-100km/h or 0-60mph figures.  Again totally useless, but good for the crowds and journalists.)

So personally I would rather trade a lot of top speed above 250 or 270km/h and get a proper close-ratio, short gear box.  May be one day an option on an RS?

The communication of AP on the release of the 991 GT3 mentioned that they did not care so much about top speed.  But this is marketing BS:  how much lower is the GT3 top speed vs that of the Turbo?

Those who want a Porsche Autobahn queen should get a Panamera Turbo / Turbo S or a 911 Turbo / Turbo S.  In fact, upon reacceleration from let us say 100km/h, even a Panamera Turbo will leave the GT3 in the dust.

Would you agree?

reginos:

MKSGR:

reginos:

Carlos from Spain:

In the votes by ALL the drivers, the GT3 was either 1st or 2nd...that's petty conclusive. However is don't see any rationale in how they choose the test subjects, they choose cars that have nothing to do with each other in terms of being a "drivers car"

       If you read the whole article they did the direct comparisons in sub-groups, before comparing across:

Ford vs Toyota

Ariel vs Radical

Cayman vs Jaguar vs A45

GT3 vs F12 vs Aston Martin

The GT3 did very well (for its price especially), and in this context a F12  owner might be tempted to add the Porsche to his garage. But I wouldn't think this person would get the GT3 instead of this imperious Ferrari.

The problem is: if you have GT Porsches and an F12 you might end up not using the F12 because the GTs are more fun to drive. This is at least my experience when I tried it last (GT2 and 599GTB)… I feel that people who like GT Porsches don't like mid-engined heavy Ferraris so much...

Was there any GTB advantage on long trips in terms of wet road stability, cruising and driver fatigue factor?

In terms of wet road stability I could not make out a major difference, I guess. The fatigue factor was (in my case) much worse in the Ferrari. For example, the seats are of only average quality on long distances. I still need to drive the F12 next spring (on summer tires). The fact that I did not test drive the F12 yet shows you how sceptical I am about this car (although the dealer keeps telling me that the F12 has none of the problems the 599 had…) 

RC:

Gnil:

I did not sleep well last, night . The GT3 was too much on my mind !!

But now that I am getting a bit used to it , I might be abble to resist temptation and wait patiently for the RS .

When is it due ? ( RC, Kreso )

 

The RS price tag will be steep as far as I heard, so be "prepared"... 

It should be at dealers around spring 2014 but I have no precise date yet.

Power will be "over 500 hp" according to latest rumors.

Hopefully, the GT3RS can close the performance gap to the 991 turbo s a bit...

PBS2010:

Interesting.  What is your source of information? The top speed of the 991 GT3 is far from 320mph.

There is a contradiction in what you are writing, now that you mention top speed on the Autobahn.

First of all, not all the GT3 buyers in the world live in Germany.  Those who do may not be in parts of the country which are least congested or suffer minimum road works disruptions, and therefore can drive at speeds in excess of 270km/h for a decent period of time.

I mention 270km/h because, if I am correct, it is about the top speed reached by the GT3 on the longest straight of the Nurburgring NS, a very fast circuit.  I have never driven on another circuit, even former F1 circuits, where a car like the GT3 may achieve more than 230-250km/h on the straight.  I do not know if any such circuit exists. Do you?

Very high speed capability may be appealing to many on the paper (probably most of them are not Porsche GT buyers).  However, in practice, I find it totally useless.  It corrupts the essence of what makes a driver’s car and leads many manufacturers, including Porsche, sell cars with excessively tall gearing.  (Another disease is the excessive communication about the 0-100km/h or 0-60mph figures.  Again totally useless, but good for the crowds and journalists.)

So personally I would rather trade a lot of top speed above 250 or 270km/h and get a proper close-ratio, short gear box.  May be one day an option on an RS?

The communication of AP on the release of the 991 GT3 mentioned that they did not care so much about top speed.  But this is marketing BS:  how much lower is the GT3 top speed vs that of the Turbo?

Those who want a Porsche Autobahn queen should get a Panamera Turbo / Turbo S or a 911 Turbo / Turbo S.  In fact, upon reacceleration from let us say 100km/h, even a Panamera Turbo will leave the GT3 in the dust.

Would you agree?

My source is a friend on Rennlist who compiled the chart from factory numbers. Theoretical top speed is 212 mph at 9k rpm, but because of aero drag and being passed the hp peak by that time, actual top speed is 195 mph at ~8,100rpm.  This is almost perfect gearing for top speed (allows for a little more speed downhill).  Ideal is right at hp peak (this is very close).

There is very little acceleration compromised now with the 7spd close ratios at any speed.  It could be very slightly faster with 8 spd or if top speed was reduced (but performance gains would be small and fuel consumption would go up).  I am grateful that we have a real 7spd that is not made for economy alone.  7th gear is a real performance gear now.  Very little to complain about and very little to be gained by changing the gearing from here (I welcome 8spd close-ratio if it comes sometime - 2nd gear corners would be even quicker).

It sounds like you would only be satisfied with gearing so close that revs never fall below 8k rpm on a track?  I  suggest you drive the car - I doubt your main complaint will be the gearing is too tall and ratios too widely spaced.  I think you will find that the car is shifting very often as it is (either by itself in Automatic Race mode or manually with paddles).

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Porsche 991 GT3 Lap of Hockenheim 1:09.6m in Sport Auto Supertest...

Porsche 991 GT3 Lap of Hockenheim 1:09.6m in Sport Auto Supertest -- Video Link

Not my place to critique his driving but he spent more time with one hand off the wheel than he did with two hands on. Also was a bit liberal throwing the car around, but who cares... Car is freaking fast. 

^I agree. Not a clean lap certainly.

Not clean at all.  He left a lot!!! on the table. 

Completely agreed with Leawood911.  I wonder what the new metal would do with a more disciplined lap.

991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff

frayed:

Completely agreed with Leawood911.  I wonder what the new metal would do with a more disciplined lap.

Supertest laps should be useful for comparison purposes, since I think it's the same driver (with presumably the same technique) with all the cars.   Not useful for best possible time on the course though...

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Grant:

PBS2010:

 

Your comment ought to be nuanced on the following points:

• “close ratio 7 speed gearbox”:  this is primarily company BS. The box is still not a close-ratio at all.  What is true is that the ratios are closer than on the other, regular Porsches, but they are not close ratios at all.  The 7^th is still overdrive by large standards.  Below is a table of the km/h achieved from 5,000rpm on the last five gears.  It speaks for itself.  How can one say that a 7-gear box that permits reaching 200km/h at 8,250rpm (top HP engine speed), in fourth gear … with 3 more gears to go! Is a close-ratio 7-gear box?  How often do you need to take corners well above 200km/h and how useful is it to have 3 more gears to work on these types of corners?  On a track?  On the road?
• “9k redline”:  again, company BS, probably to have something to say relative the 458 which indeed has top HP and limiter at 9,000.  Peak HP on the GT3 is achieved 750rpm earlier.  The rest may be useful on a track but useless on a road except when you may want to hear the engine screaming, which may only happen from time to time.  The GT3 is a road car primarily and for people who will go to the track with it, via public roads and back.  So my point is that on usual road conditions, the so-called 9,000 redline adds nothing except the nuisance of a lot of noise and the low torque;  also, on the road these engine specs add close to nothing relative to the regular Carrera
• “the GT3 will rarely be below 7k rpm if well driven on a track (and never below 6k)”: watching the various videos posted and whose links are on this forum, it does not seem to be the case always.  And on a public road, this will almost always impossible.

My bottom line is that the gearing on even the sportier Porsches is way too tall.

All comments welcome.

Hi - I appreciate your comments, but I disagree with your analysis.  Here is a gear chart showing where shifting occurs (ignore colored line - just look at triangles at top on the lowest chart below).  Notice revs only dip below 6k on slow 2nd gear corners (but a little too fast for 1st gear - not all track will have a corner like this).

Regarding redline being above peak hp - this is almost always the case.  The goal is to shift above peak hp, so that you are not too far below peak hp in the next gear.  You want your average rpm to be as close to peak hp for as long as possible (shifting above peak hp achieves this far better than shifting at peak).

7th gear is technically an overdrive, but you cannot properly analyze that, unless you consider the final drive as well.  The fact that Vmax is achieved in top gear near peak hp means the GT3 is properly geared - not a cruising gear in 7th.

Yes, a slow track migh benefit from even lower gearing, but then top speed would be sacrifiiced (not desirable for a car designed to run on autobahn).

Cheers,

Grant

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Grant 

any chance you have access to the same chart for a scud or strad?  I have always hated GT3 gearsets, as they have been way to tall for the canyons in malibu where i spend most of my time, without ever leaving third gear and never exceeding 120 mph, and constantly downshifting into first.  The stradale and scuderia are great in the canyons because compared to GT3, the gearsets were lower. From the chart, I'm afraid this gt3 will be less than stellar coming out of steep uphill hairpins, and I will still be downshifting into first but at least it will be pdk, and i will be applying it in the mountains of new Zealand.

shaunt:

Not my place to critique his driving but he spent more time with one hand off the wheel than he did with two hands on. Also was a bit liberal throwing the car around, but who cares... Car is freaking fast. 

Does this guy expect his time to be taken seriously with driving like that? If Marc Leib drove like that when trying to set a lap time Porsche would fire him. 

Yeah. I agree its not the most professional looking lap, although perhaps that's his style. He goes well over the rumble strip a few times too which Im not so sure is good for speed. However hes a better driver than me so I conceed that I really dont have a valid point of view on this one...

watt:

Grant 

any chance you have access to the same chart for a scud or strad?  I have always hated GT3 gearsets, as they have been way to tall for the canyons in malibu where i spend most of my time, without ever leaving third gear and never exceeding 120 mph, and constantly downshifting into first.  The stradale and scuderia are great in the canyons because compared to GT3, the gearsets were lower. From the chart, I'm afraid this gt3 will be less than stellar coming out of steep uphill hairpins, and I will still be downshifting into first but at least it will be pdk, and i will be applying it in the mountains of new Zealand.

No, I have an Excel spreadsheet that will create charts for any car, but you need to know gear ratios, final drive ratio, wheel diameter, and redline.

Downshifting into 1st is no problem with PDK and there is no longer a big hole between 2nd and 3rd gears, as in past GT3s.  Have fun in NZ!

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

shaunt:

Not my place to critique his driving but he spent more time with one hand off the wheel than he did with two hands on. Also was a bit liberal throwing the car around, but who cares... Car is freaking fast. 

Are you guys seeing something else than I do? That was freakin' fast and the fact that HvS looks that relaxed is simple: He knows the Hockenheim track very well, he could drive it blind. I didn't see any throwing or sliding, not sure what everybody is referring to. He was surely driving the car almost at the limit but it may not look that way because he drives a clean line (yes, he does).

Speaking of Marc Lieb (not Leib ): He is a factory driver and not necessarily the fastest one, depending on the car and track. If you guys compare this video to the 918 video on the Nordschleife, that video has been professionally edited, the Sport Auto video hasn't.

Just give HvS a break, he did a great job and the GT3 is really fast.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Are you referring to Marx Lieb  the Motorsports factory driver?

Marc Lieb

"Form follows function"

sorry! typo (x next to c)

reginos:

Marc Lieb

I thought it was Marx Leib.

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

RC:

shaunt:

Not my place to critique his driving but he spent more time with one hand off the wheel than he did with two hands on. Also was a bit liberal throwing the car around, but who cares... Car is freaking fast. 

Are you guys seeing something else than I do? That was freakin' fast and the fact that HvS looks that relaxed is simple: He knows the Hockenheim track very well, he could drive it blind. I didn't see any throwing or sliding, not sure what everybody is referring to. He was surely driving the car almost at the limit but it may not look that way because he drives a clean line (yes, he does).

Speaking of Marc Lieb (not Leib ): He is a factory driver and not necessarily the fastest one, depending on the car and track. If you guys compare this video to the 918 video on the Nordschleife, that video has been professionally edited, the Sport Auto video hasn't.

Just give HvS a break, he did a great job and the GT3 is really fast.

With all due respect I think you took my post to be more inflammatory than I intended it to be. HvS is much more qualified than I to be the pilot of these comparos, however it is the nonchalant nature and mannerisms during the test that has everyone up in arms. Granted, I'm sure I could emulate an F1 driver with concentration and still lap 5 seconds slower than HvS but one would just expect a tad more conviction rather than looking like a victory lap. 

You should take a ride with Walter Röhrl. Even when he tries hard, you get the feeling that he is just out for a ride to get some fresh bakery goods from the next bakery. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Just to make things clear: Marc Lieb is a Porsche Motorsport factory driver and is amongst the fastest GT drivers on the planet. Amongst his many accolades, he is a Le Mans winner (3 times), 24h Nurburgring (various times), 24 Spa, and  is the only current GT driver that is being considered to join the LMP1 program as one of the 6 drivers. He is also a qualified engineer and works as such (about 25 hours per week) in the Motorsport department.  Professionally he was involved in the development of the 997GT3.

Spyderidol:

 24h Nurburgring (various times)

4 times  (2007, 2008, 2009, 2011)

--

Porsche 911 GT3 - Guards Red 997 MKII Clubsport

Grant 

any chance you have access to the same chart for a scud or strad?  I have always hated GT3 gearsets, as they have been way to tall for the canyons in malibu where i spend most of my time, without ever leaving third gear and never exceeding 120 mph, and constantly downshifting into first.  The stradale and scuderia are great in the canyons because compared to GT3, the gearsets were lower. From the chart, I'm afraid this gt3 will be less than stellar coming out of steep uphill hairpins, and I will still be downshifting into first but at least it will be pdk, and i will be applying it in the mountains of new Zealand.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Thank you for your comment.  I feel better now that I am no longer alone for having dared to criticize one feature of the sacred cow!

Obviously the gearing is way too tall including on the new GT3, where the company talk on the so-called 7-speed close ratio ‘box is a farce.  Total nonsense made up by the marketing guys (probably under pressure by the environmental guys), yet readily swallowed by the gullible devotees.

The GT3 car is all about handling, going round corners.  It will never reach its claimed top speed even on the longest straight of the Nurburgring NS, and we should not care about that.

BTW, a racing GT3 top speed is about 270km/h.

What happens from 200-300km/h is much less relevant than what happens from 0-200.

Porsche should offer customers, for their more radical cars (maybe the GT3RS?), the possibility to trade top speed for a shorter gearing.  This would be true to the sport, and would contrast relative to the other mainstream German car manufacturers which charge extra for raising the top speed from above 250km/h and are probably having a laugh when collecting the money!

Any news regarding delivery postponements?

I was invited to a track test session back in September and it was cancelled. Reason:  the factory could not provide the cars.

This session was rescheduled for today 11/5.  Today's session was cancelled.  Reason:  the factory could not provide the cars.

Certainly something is going on.